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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
 
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01paradox01 said:
They literally could spin it as 'they want to parittion the rest of you and hand you over to the Ottomans and Albania!'

What we're doing isn't anything more or less than what the other Great Powers are doing at this conference. That sort of concern is basically irrelevant to what we decide here. If they tried using it against us, we could easily do the same for them. Besides, we're not quite there in terms of Entente antagonism. They likely believe we're still reasonable, or sated.
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As much as it's 'standard procedure' to do this, we're supposed to be better. They aren't going to blame the Entente nor the League, but they can and will blame us, even if the antagonism from the Entente hasn't reached that level.

01paradox01 said:
Albania is a literal tribal backwater at this point in time. Them 'disliking' or 'liking' us means nothing. They're only slightly more powerful than Montenegro.
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<o>U<o> said:
Albania is a mess and 'getting' them to be worth something might as well be a statebuilding exercise - they shattered into anarchy as soon as WW1 hit and fell into foreign intervention, strongmen and extremism pretty much uninterrupted since then.
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If it's a statebuilding exercise, then that means not only do we have a good test case for how our policies can work in those sorts of countries and a show of what we can offer to those who wish to live a better life. There is nothing inherent about Albania that makes it vulnerable to 'strongmen' and I find that implication disturbingly prejudiced, we can absolutely change their trajectory here.
 
[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)

[X] Plan: Pro-Serbia (Serbia +3, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Greece -1, Ottomans +1)
 
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[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
-[X] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[X] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
-[X] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
-[X] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[X] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[X] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)
 
[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
-[X] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[X] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
-[X] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
-[X] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[X] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[X] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)
 
dex10awesome said:
If it's a statebuilding exercise, then that means not only do we have a good test case for how our policies can work in those sorts of countries and a show of what we can offer to those who wish to live a better life. There is nothing inherent about Albania that makes it vulnerable to 'strongmen' and I find that implication disturbingly prejudiced, we can absolutely change their trajectory here.
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Is the "implication" in the thread with us right now? I stated some very pertinent information based on a claim you made, so don't try to frame me as discriminatory for explaining why allying Albania is kinda useless. As for building them up? Be my guest after we've secured our position in the Balkans and stabilized the post-Hapsburg status quo, but don't talk down to this thread to claim unsanctioned Republic building (since that's what we're proposing in Albania here) will give us a good bulwark in the region.
 
So, I'm not quite sure what the Pro-Greece plan is trying to accomplish. Or rather, I don't think it will do very well at what its voters want to accomplish. It will give Greece a decent amount of territory, but will this bring Greece into our camp? They're still going to be a monarchy and looking out for their own interests, which may not be with us. By the count in the leading plan, it only ends up with a +1 for Greece, not something that suggests to me they'll be that close to us.

And even if they do jump in with us, ideological concerns aside, that's actually bad. Serbia and Bulgaria will both want Greek territory then, and an emboldened Greece may look to further the Megali Idea against the Ottomans. This could well drive the rest of the Balkans into the arms of the Entente. Gaining the Greek monarchy as an ally at the cost of making enemies of Serbia, Bulgaria, and the Ottomans is a net loss.

The best case for us with the Pro-Greece plan is that they decide to go their own way, basically taking the place of Bulgaria as the oversized Balkan state all their neighbors hate and have claims on. This largely works for our interests, though I'm not sure this is the approach many voters of the Pro-Greece plan intend.

I still prefer Balance of Power because by keeping North Macedonia with Bulgaria, it prevents any chance of a Serbian and Bulgarian rapprochement, which I consider to be a greater danger, as between Romania, Bulgaria, and Serbia, they'd have control of the Danube up pretty far, close to Budapest.

Also giving North Macedonia (to an extent any part of Macedonia, but especially North Macedonia) to anyone other than Bulgaria is going to lead to the IMRO becoming a big headache for the new owner of the territory. They were a big problem there OTL, and Bulgaria's actually owned and administrated it for two decades TTL, it's going to be so much worse. At least giving it to Greece wouldn't be quite as bad as giving it to Albania of all countries, that would just be asking for chaos and rampant atrocities.
 
Aedan777 said:
The best case for us with the Pro-Greece plan is that they decide to go their own way, basically taking the place of Bulgaria as the oversized Balkan state all their neighbors hate and have claims on. This largely works for our interests, though I'm not sure this is the approach many voters of the Pro-Greece plan intend.

I still prefer Balance of Power because by keeping North Macedonia with Bulgaria, it prevents any chance of a Serbian and Bulgarian rapprochement, which I consider to be a greater danger, as between Romania, Bulgaria, and Serbia, they'd have control of the Danube up pretty far, close to Budapest.

Also giving North Macedonia (to an extent any part of Macedonia, but especially North Macedonia) to anyone other than Bulgaria is going to lead to the IMRO becoming a big headache for the new owner of the territory. They were a big problem there OTL, and Bulgaria's actually owned and administrated it for two decades TTL, it's going to be so much worse. At least giving it to Greece wouldn't be quite as bad as giving it to Albania of all countries, that would just be asking for chaos and rampant atrocities.
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Reminder that the "Pro-Greece - Nis for Serbia" plan also comes out to mild Serbia-Montenegro approval, and IMO your "best case" there is a likely outcome - same as how Balance of Power will cause Serbia-Montenegro, Greece, and Bulgaria to be preoccupied with each other. I don't think Greek North Macedonia would be something to prompt Serbia-Montenegrin alignment with Bulgaria since both want the same territory & Bulgaria would also have enmity against Serbia-Montenegro over Nis.

But you do have a great point wrt IMRO's affinity with Bulgaria (and subsequent hell they'll raise). I'm just not sure it's worth it to annoy Greece there since your plan has them coming to a -1 stance against us (edit:it's an approximation, but they'll essentially gain less than they wanted at a notable degree), while at the same time Serbia-Montenegro is already trending against us after we locked them out from establishing a Serbo-Croat union on their terms.
 
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[x] Plan: Balance of Power
-[x] Kosovo should remain with Serbia.
-[x] Nis should go to Serbia.
-[x] Northern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[x] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[x] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece.
-[x] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire.

Greece has close ties to Britain and France, closer than Serbia has to them. Serbia also wants to be closer to us, so rewarding them with more land should help assuage their egos a bit. We shouldn't touch the Ottomans because they aren't involved in this. I also like the idea of leaving Bulgaria somewhat intact so it can remain a regional threat to Greece, Serbia, and Romania.
 
Fission Battery said:
Greece has close ties to Britain and France, closer than Serbia has to them. Serbia also wants to be closer to us, so rewarding them with more land should help assuage their egos a bit. We shouldn't touch the Ottomans because they aren't involved in this. I also like the idea of leaving Bulgaria somewhat intact so it can remain a regional threat to Greece, Serbia, and Romania.
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Hmm that is true IRL and presumably ITTL on Greek closeness with UK and France, but Serbia-Montenegro aims at South Slavic unification on their (monarchist) terms - which we've locked them out of with the Alliance backing up a potential Adriatic/Illyrian Federation. I don't think Serbia seeks to be closer to us per the update after our decisions favored Allied former Croatia-Slavonia, rather the opposite actually.

FWIW I'm still torn on both leading plans.
 
Regency said:
Hmm that is true IRL and presumably ITTL on Greek closeness with UK and France, but Serbia-Montenegro aims at South Slavic unification on their (monarchist) terms - which we've locked them out of with the Alliance backing up a potential Adriatic/Illyrian Federation. I don't think Serbia seeks to be closer to us per the update after our decisions favored Allied former Croatia-Slavonia, rather the opposite actually.

FWIW I'm still torn on both leading plans.
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It read like they felt spurned by us refusing to officially take them into our sphere. They don't exactly have an imperial patron at the moment, so they're probably hedging their bets to get German investment and arms. They wanted to join the war after all. It would have been a cluster fuck, but hey they got the spirit. Greece is firmly in Britain's pocket. They bankrolled independence, control several islands off the coast until turning them over, and generally see it as another strategic port to secure the Med and entrance to the Black Sea.

Balance of Power gives Greece some land so they don't walk away empty handed and insulted, like Romania does, without giving them too much. I didn't want to invite any of the Balkan countries to the conference in the first place, but they're here so we need to do some great power politicking to keep them happy and sated.
 
Arghhh, switching vote. Check back when I flip flop again later :V

[x] Plan: Balance of Power
 
[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)

I don't like balance of power. It's so concerned with balance it doesn't really gain anything. Bulgaria will still hate us but Greece will like us less than it could. Pro-Greece is just a better plan.

Aedan777 said:
So, I'm not quite sure what the Pro-Greece plan is trying to accomplish. Or rather, I don't think it will do very well at what its voters want to accomplish. It will give Greece a decent amount of territory, but will this bring Greece into our camp? They're still going to be a monarchy and looking out for their own interests, which may not be with us. By the count in the leading plan, it only ends up with a +1 for Greece, not something that suggests to me they'll be that close to us.
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All the countries there are monarchies so I don't see how Greece specifically being a monarchy is an argument for or against anything.

In the case of my vote, my goal is for Greece to be friendly enough we can convince it to reject a full entente alignment, not to put it in our sphere, which I agree is not really reasonable with only +1 relations.

Balance of power just feel like a worse version by keeping slightly better relations with Bulgaria for worse ones with Greece when Bulgaria will still hate us.
 
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[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
-[X] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[X] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
-[X] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
-[X] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[X] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[X] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)
 
Nyvis said:
[X] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)

I don't like balance of power. It's so concerned with balance it doesn't really gain anything. Bulgaria will still hate us but Greece will like us less than it could. Pro-Greece is just a better plan.



All the countries there are monarchies so I don't see how Greece specifically being a monarchy is an argument for or against anything.

In the case of my vote, my goal is for Greece to be friendly enough we can convince it to reject a full entente alignment, not to put it in our sphere, which I agree is not really reasonable with only +1 relations.

Balance of power just feel like a worse version by keeping slightly better relations with Bulgaria for worse ones with Greece when Bulgaria will still hate us.
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Bulgaria joined the war because they were part of the Imperial League as a Russian client state when the League's position was threatened. This does not necessarily mean Bulgaria hates us. Bulgaria's not going to love us, none of the Balkan monarchies will, but if we don't take away too much territory from them then they aren't going to be as likely to be in an opposition camp to us.

Ultimately I think our goal should be to aim to have the Balkan powers out of both our alliance and the Entente. Keeping them out lowers the chance we have to fight in the Balkans in war with the Entente. Mildly punishing Bulgaria for joining a war that didn't concern them serves this better than a harsher deal that also gives Greece the heavily disputed North Macedonia. Greece would be encouraged to seek an outside patron to hold on to its position, as Bulgaria effectively had with the Imperial League previously.

Regency said:
I don't think Greek North Macedonia would be something to prompt Serbia-Montenegrin alignment with Bulgaria since both want the same territory & Bulgaria would also have enmity against Serbia-Montenegro over Nis.
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Bulgaria would be much more concerned with the territories lost to Greece than Nis, and know it would need allies to reclaim them. As for overlapping claims, that's certainly a long term issue, but it didn't stop the OTL Balkan League from being formed between Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece. The Balkan powers are in large part by their desire for territorial control, and will make what deals they can in the short term to facilitate that. Our goal should be to discourage them from making alliances with powers outside the Balkans in this pursuit.
 
[x] Plan: Balance of Power
-[x] Kosovo should remain with Serbia.
-[x] Nis should go to Serbia.
-[x] Northern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[x] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[x] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece.
-[x] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire.

At this point, I just hope nothing would be explode again before the next year.
 
Aedan777 said:
Bulgaria joined the war because they were part of the Imperial League as a Russian client state when the League's position was threatened. This does not necessarily mean Bulgaria hates us. Bulgaria's not going to love us, none of the Balkan monarchies will, but if we don't take away too much territory from them then they aren't going to be as likely to be in an opposition camp to us.

Ultimately I think our goal should be to aim to have the Balkan powers out of both our alliance and the Entente. Keeping them out lowers the chance we have to fight in the Balkans in war with the Entente. Mildly punishing Bulgaria for joining a war that didn't concern them serves this better than a harsher deal that also gives Greece the heavily disputed North Macedonia. Greece would be encouraged to seek an outside patron to hold on to its position, as Bulgaria effectively had with the Imperial League previously.
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Bulgaria still loses quite a bit of territory in that plan though, which will just push them further away. I'd rather take one or two of the Balkan nations and sacrifice relations with them to secure positive ones with the others than trying to craft a balance that satisfies no one and leave everyone resentful of us.

I don't see why Greece already having its gains will make it more likely to seek outside help than Greece needing that help to secure its targets. If we give away all we can give from Bulgaria there's just no conflict for Greece to push anymore and thus less of a need for foreign backing. It might push Bulgaria even closer to our enemies but it was always there and I think that's inevitable anyway so I don't really care.
 
[x] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
- [x] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
- [x] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
- [x] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
- [x] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
- [x] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
- [x] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)
[x] Plan: Balance of Power
- [x] Kosovo should remain with Serbia.
- [x] Nis should go to Serbia.
- [x] Northern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria.
- [x] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria.
- [x] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece.
- [x] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire.
 
[x] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
- [x] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
- [x] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
- [x] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
- [x] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
- [x] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
- [x] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)
 
Nyvis said:
All the countries there are monarchies so I don't see how Greece specifically being a monarchy is an argument for or against anything.
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Hey now, Albania isn't a monarchy! That's because they technically have a Ottoman governor and are run by a bourgeois and aristocratic council, but still!
 
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