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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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Kirook said:
I really don't think this is true. They have a liberal party with a small radical wing and that's about it. Serbia and Romania were small enough compared to us that we could exercise a lot of influence over their future direction, but the Ottomans are a great power in their own right (and one without a lot of interest in national revolution because it would fragment their Arab, Kurdish, and Armenian holdings). I'm personally of the opinion that at this point we should be doing our best to woo Serbia and Greece since those are the two countries whose politics we actually have the capacity to change which would cause us the biggest problems if they were to align with the Entente.
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I actually don't think that fragmenting along ethnic lines is inevitable even with a pro-democracy revolution. Ethnic minorities were pretty supportive of the 1913 coup until it proved to be more interested in maintaining power and specifically Turkish nationalism than actual democracy.

Of course the Sultan is probably pretty against such a revolution anyways right now, but by bringing the Ottomans into our sphere more fully we can press for reforms and, if a revolution does happen, have a stronger position to ensure it doesn't break down. More to the point, we can woo Serbia, Greece, and the Ottomans pretty comfortably, though I think we lost Serbia in giving up our ability to influence their politics. We already chose everyone else over Serbia, I don't think trying to go back on that will do more but strengthen an enemy.
 
spiritualatheist said:
Why on earth did everyone vote to spite Serbia, anyway?
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...we didn't? We gave em Kosovo, and gave Kotor to Montenegro. Then when it come to securing the former Croatia-Slavonia to be an Allied state(s) and securing Transylvania & Banat against potentially uniting with Romania against our wishes at the same time, or ceding one region in order to opt towards influencing Serbia and/or Montenegro, we chose the former to further secure the Adriatic and the Danube.
 
Regency said:
...we didn't? We gave em Kosovo, and gave Kotor to Montenegro. Then when it come to securing the former Croatia-Slavonia to be an Allied state(s) and securing Transylvania & Banat against potentially uniting with Romania against our wishes at the same time, or ceding one region in order to opt towards influencing Serbia and/or Montenegro, we chose the former to further secure the Adriatic and the Danube.
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Yeah but we deliberately excluded them from any potential federation. Having them on our side and in our sphere just seems vastly more valuable to me than Banat, even though they are a monarchy.
 
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[] Plan: Sounds a little familiar
-[] Kosovo should go to Albania.
-[] Nis should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Northern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Eastern Rumelia should go to the Ottoman Empire.
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire.

You guys ever heard of a war where Germany, the Ottomans, and Bulgaria were against Serbia, Greece, and Romania as a part of a larger war against the British, French, and Russians?

Something about it just sounds familiar :thonk:
 
Haruhi is Waifu said:
[] Plan: Sounds a little familiar
-[] Kosovo should go to Albania.
-[] Nis should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Northern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Eastern Rumelia should go to the Ottoman Empire.
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire.

You guys ever heard of a war where Germany, the Ottomans, and Bulgaria were against Serbia, Greece, and Romania as a part of a larger war against the British, French, and Russians?

Something about it just sounds familiar :thonk:
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Bulgaria hates us because we were literally just at war with them. Snubbing Serbia even more to try to be friends with a literal member of the Imperial League seems obviously self-defeating.
 
Kirook said:
Look, I understand that everyone's having a fun time coming up with wacky meme plans for Bulgaria, but we need to face facts: we messed up. Serbia is angry, Romania is angry (and highly unlikely to have a revolution at this point), Montenegro doesn't exist anymore, and now we have to deal with the Bulgarian issue on top of all of that. We need to be doing damage control and figuring out how to repair some of the damage that's been done to our Balkan diplomacy, not handing over a bunch of land to the Ottomans on the off chance that it helps their radicals. If that requires us to be punitive towards Bulgaria for the sake of our relations with other countries, so be it; but spite is a shitty way to conduct diplomacy when the fates of millions of people rest on your decisions.
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I agree. I feel like we have to give Serbia Nis and North Macedonia minimum to show there's no hard feelings. Definitely need to give some land to Greece to buy them off as a thanks for offering to join. Bulgaria with its modern borders is fine. We don't touch the Ottomans and they appreciate us.

That said, I'm voting for Aeden's plan. It looks solid.
 
spiritualatheist said:
Bulgaria hates us because we were literally just at war with them. Snubbing Serbia even more to try to be friends with a literal member of the Imperial League seems obviously self-defeating.
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Aside from being a meme, Bulgaria went from getting ganked by the Ottomans and co irl in the Balkan Wars to fighting alongside them in WW1. I don't hold much stake in Balkan allegiances being set for life. Especially for a nation that went relatively untouched compared to practically everyone else in this conflict.
 
OK, for an actual serious moment, these are some criteria I'd use to evaluate plans.

1. No power that was not a belligerent should lose territory. That means the Ottomans keep their transevrosian territory, and the Serbians keep Kosovo.
2. Albania should not be enlarged. It is already a low-capacity state, enlarging it when it struggles to administer its existing territory is a centrifugal recipe. And we would be called upon to guarantee stability in the event of a descent into anarchy (the bad kind) when we have little appetite for a forever war.

These criteria taken together force:

-[] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)

But

3. The Ottoman Empire should not be enlarged. Unlike the other Balkan powers, it is strong enough to pursue an independent foreign policy and may do so against Alliance interests. It is an ancient monarchy and not to be trusted. Accordingly, it should not get eastern Macedonia (read, western Thrace) or Eastern Rumelia. This forces:

-[] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)

4. Bulgaria should be denied access to the Aegean Sea. This denies any power that might befriend Bulgaria transit to the Black Sea ports (and thence to Russia) through its territory, and denies Russia the opportunity to transit through Bulgaria to the Aegean. It reinforces the importance of the Straits. Coupled with the former stipulation meaning the Ottomans can't get it, this forces:

-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)

So far this is a net
Serbia +1
Albania -1
Ottomans +1
Greece +0
Bulgaria +0

At this point the only power coming out ahead relations-wise with us are Serbia and the Ottoman Empire, but not by much. And the only powers that can further benefit relations-wise are Serbia, Greece, and Bulgaria. Maximizing relations with each from this point yields:

[] Pro-Serbia (Serbia +3, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Greece -1, Ottomans +1)
-[] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
-[] Northern Macedonia should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1, Bulgaria -1, Greece -1)
-[] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)

[] Pro-Bulgaria (Bulgaria +2, Serbia -1, Albania -2, Greece -1, Ottomans +1)
-[] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[] Nis should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1, Serbia -1)
-[] Northern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1, Albania -1, Greece -1, Serbia -1)
-[] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)

[] Pro-Greece (Nis to Bulgaria) (Greece +1, Serbia -1, Albania -2, Bulgaria +0, Ottomans +1)
-[] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[] Nis should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1, Serbia -1)
-[] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
-[] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)

[] Pro-Greece (Nis to Serbia) (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
-[] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
-[] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
-[] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)

As can be seen from the above, if we accept my points 1 - 4, the biggest relations gains with any one power are to be had with Serbia, and the following map.

 
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However, if we accept my points 1 - 4, the only plan that leaves us with more positive than negative relations is the pro-Greek plan (Nis to Serbia variation):

 
Consider that I want Big Ottoman though

EDIT: and geopolitically the ottomans are positioned to be an ally, having issues with both Russia and France, along with a pro German government
 
Fission Battery said:
I agree. I feel like we have to give Serbia Nis and North Macedonia minimum to show there's no hard feelings. Definitely need to give some land to Greece to buy them off as a thanks for offering to join. Bulgaria with its modern borders is fine. We don't touch the Ottomans and they appreciate us.

That said, I'm voting for Aeden's plan. It looks solid.
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Aedan's plan doesn't give Serbia North Macedonia, but reserves it to Bulgaria (which is contrary to "Bulgaria's modern borders"). My pro-Serbia plan does give Serbia North Macedonia and gives Bulgaria its modern borders, and is similar to Aedan's in all other respects.
 
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[] Plan: Balkan Thunderdome
-[] Kosovo should go to Albania.
-[] Nis should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Northern Macedonia should go to Albania.
-[] Eastern Rumelia should go to the Ottoman Empire.
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to the Ottoman Empire.
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece.

This plan is made only to maximize ethnic and religious tentions in the region and set up as much conflict and chaos as possible.
 
I think we have been sustaining the Ottoman Empire since the first republic mainly because our unwillingness to exploit other countries had us sign fair trade agreements with them. I don't remember reading much about the current political situation in the Ottoman Empire though, so (if I'm right) it is safe to assume that not much has changed from OTL (about Ottoman politics).​
 
Retired Explorer said:
I think we have been sustaining the Ottoman Empire since the first republic mainly because our unwillingness to exploit other countries had us sign fair trade agreements with them. I don't remember reading much about the current political situation in the Ottoman Empire though, so (if I'm right) it is safe to assume that not much has changed from OTL (about Ottoman politics).​
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The Young Ottomans were never purged TTL and have just sort of kept the Constitution alive, so some of their membership never radicalized into Gamer Nationalism and the Young Turks do not exist.
 
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
[] Pro-Greece (Nis to Serbia) (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
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I think this is the best one. It has 3 positive states we can benefit from and 2 negatives, one of which is a nonentity and the other our designated victim. I'm okay with that.

Tentatively voting this.

[] Pro-Greece (Nis to Serbia) (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)

I've been convinced by your red lines, it's a more rigorous approach.
 
Aedan777 said:
[] Plan: Balance of Power
-[] Kosovo should remain with Serbia.
-[] Nis should go to Serbia.
-[] Northern Macedonia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria.
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece.
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire.

I for one am glad we're at this stage of the conference, we have a chance to rearrange the borders of the Balkans. I just think it's fundamentally unsound to use this as an opportunity to aggrandize any one of these powers, who are not our friends and have important ideological differences with us. Our goal, in my opinion, should be to make minor adjustments to Balkan borders, to keep these powers hostile to each other. If Bulgaria is totally mutilated, then they'll be tossed to the side and the Entente will look to swing one of the other powers. By keeping a more balanced approach, we make it hard for the Entente to support one power without sending another into our arms. It will also make the individual strength of each weaker and less of a concern if they align against us.

We don't have friends in the Balkans, but we do have interests. Keeping them all roughly equally happy and without crippling any of them reduces the chance of facing a major front here next war, and doesn't tie us to any monarchist government.
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I fully agree with this plan. If we had made Serbia a greater friend then I would be all for awarding them Northern Macedonia but since Serbia has unified with Montenegro and pose a potential threat we should mollify them with Nis but not aggrandize them. Denying Russia's ally of Bulgaria an Aegean Sea port is also a good policy.

We do not want to give the Ottomans anything. Aside from the fact that they remain an empire that is preventing national liberation and a monarchy of ancient power which we hate on principle them gaining lands in the Balkans is not in our interests. It is in our interests that the Ottomans are focused East and holding the Straits. That way they are most positioned in an anti-Russian and anti-French foreign policy. They will also have difficulties with the English. We should not encourage them to run headlong into a Balkan quagmire which would surely stoke another Balkan War or involve themselves in a guerrilla war in Bulgaria.

This seems to me to be the most politically sound plan.
 
Zimmerwald1915 said:
[] Pro-Greece (Nis to Serbia) (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
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I concur with Nyvis and will vote for this plan since it mollifies the most states in the Balkans, with two states that will dislike this proposal the most being either relatively not as significant (Albania) or sent soldiers to fight against us in the Great Eastern War (Bulgaria). The plan also does the smart thing of not giving any land to the Osmanli state - the Porte is happy enough we don't take any land from them.

Rewriting it as

[] Plan: Pro-Greece - Nis to Serbia (Greece +1, Serbia +1, Albania -2, Bulgaria -2, Ottomans +1)
-[] Kosovo should remain with Serbia. (Serbia +1, Albania -1)
-[] Nis should go to Serbia. (Serbia +1, Bulgaria -1)
-[] Northern Macedonia should go to Greece. (Greece +1, Bulgaria -1, Albania -1, Serbia -1)
-[] Eastern Rumelia should remain with Bulgaria. (Bulgaria +1)
-[] Bulgarian Eastern Macedonia should go to Greece. (+1 Greece, -1 Bulgaria)
-[] Ottoman Eastern Macedonia should remain with the Ottoman Empire. (Ottomans +1, Greece -1)

Reminder that the Osmans' Empire is also opening up a tender for a huge railway project, that's an opportunity to further improve relations with it...at least on the surface. We could propose for a pan-alliance SOE-cooperative rail consortium to 1)win said tender for construction, 2)use it as part of a charm offensive to the Young Ottomans, and 3)use it as a vehicle to foster & aid local social-and-radical elements (including, but not limited to, the Young Ottoman's Radical wing)

Edit2: Nvm has to repost
 
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