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Springtime of Nations II: A European Republic Quest

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[X] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).

spiritualatheist said:
I think striking at Pressburg is fundamentally a bad move for us. It's heavily defended, and Pannonian Sweep proceeds to then charge at the even better defended Budapest. We do not need to take Pressburg to take Budapest, and taking Osijek bypasses all of the fortifications around the city. We can just avoid all of those casualties and have a better chance of actually taking Budapest this turn.
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The main defensive line was anchored on Zagreb in the west. By taking that, we've already breached it on one end. Taking Osijek puts us further behind it and gives a flank approach on Budapest, but it's not necessary to start turning their flank on the Franz Joseph line. A dual offensive against Budapest and Pressburg will benefit from this and reduce their defensive position. It will also make use of our still notable riverine fleet on the Danube, which would otherwise be stuck behind Bratislava. Once we breach their main defensive line and take Bratislava we'll have the Danube and the main rail lines to Budapest, allowing for better supply as we advanced, as opposed to going through Slavonia and then southern Hungary, which is also a longer path. The Danube will remain a barrier to us rather than an asset if we advance from the south as well.

Not that I think Plan: Turn the Flank is bad, I think it'll probably also succeed. I just don't think it avoids issues entirely for an advance on Budapest, and that a dual offensive against Budapest and Pressburg isn't going to be just smashing into prepared defenses.
 
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[X] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
 
[X] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
 
Aedan777 said:
[X] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).


The main defensive line was anchored on Zagreb in the west. By taking that, we've already breached it on one end. Taking Osijek puts us further behind it and gives a flank approach on Budapest, but it's not necessary to start turning their flank on the Franz Joseph line. A dual offensive against Budapest and Pressburg will benefit from this and reduce their defensive position. It will also make use of our still notable riverine fleet on the Danube, which would otherwise be stuck behind Bratislava. Once we breach their main defensive line and take Bratislava we'll have the Danube and the main rail lines to Budapest, allowing for better supply as we advanced, as opposed to going through Slavonia and then southern Hungary, which is also a longer path. The Danube will remain a barrier to us rather than an asset if we advance from the south as well.

Not that I think Plan: Turn the Flank is bad, I think it'll probably also succeed. I just don't think it avoids issues entirely for an advance on Budapest, and that a dual offensive against Budapest and Pressburg isn't going to be just smashing into prepared defenses.
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I think that if we want to flank the heavy defenses around Budapest we should take the action that tells us it lets us do that. Your point about supplies is better taken, but we are building up those supplies for precisely this push, so I don't think it's going to be an issue— and we can still rely on the Landwehr laying rail as it goes.

I also think that your plan is likely to work, but it's going to be a lot more costly in terms of lives.
 
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[x] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
- [x] Do not reallocate troops.
- [x] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
- [x] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
- [x] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
 
[X] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
 
[X] Plan Turn the Flank
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).
 
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[X] Plan Turn the Flank
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).

[X] Plan: Case Dreizack
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Klaipeda (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).

I don't get it. We've created a perfectly serviceable weak point in the enemy defenses, and now people want to simply ignore it when we've already seen that Austrian fortifications are plenty good enough to stall us in a frontal attack? It's not like the Danube and our monitor fleet will just disappear after we've taken Budapest, we can still use them to pincer Pressburg or to advance beyond Budapest. I could maybe see a plan that attacks both Osijek and Pressburg, I guess, but that either delays Budapest until next turn or risks overstretching our shell production.

As the saying goes, slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. Trench warfare takes time, you don't cut that short by beelining the fortified objectives, you cut it short by being careful and methodical.
 
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[X] Plan Turn the Flank
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).
 
[X] Plan: Crush Croatia-Hungary
-[X] Reallocate troops toward the Austrian front.
-[X] Strengthen defensive positions in Poland.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).

[X] Plan Turn the Flank
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).
 
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[X] Plan Turn the Flank
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).
 
[X] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
 
Huh, Déjà vu...
DanBaque said:
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But now it's the Austrian Empire.

You know what? Screw it. I want this.

[X] Plan: Nobody Expects
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Polish front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Kiev (Red).

Taking some more chunks of Russia while we still can, before Austria falls and the Entente starts doing more than just noises.


EDIT - Approval voting...

[X] Plan: disguise, deceive, dumbfound
[X] Plan Turn the Flank
 
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Gnarker said:
[X] Plan Turn the Flank
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).

[X] Plan: Case Dreizack
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Klaipeda (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).

I don't get it. We've created a perfectly serviceable weak point in the enemy defenses, and now people want to simply ignore it when we've already seen that Austrian fortifications are plenty good enough to stall us in a frontal attack? It's not like the Danube and our monitor fleet will just disappear after we've taken Budapest, we can still use them to pincer Pressburg or to advance beyond Budapest. I could maybe see a plan that attacks both Osijek and Pressburg, I guess, but that either delays Budapest until next turn or risks overstretching our shell production.

As the saying goes, slow is smooth, and smooth is fast. Trench warfare takes time, you don't cut that short by beelining the fortified objectives, you cut it short by being careful and methodical.
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Vienna has demonstrated that 'fortified' doesn't mean much for the Austrians. They can dig all the trenches and earthworks they like; they can even fill them with as many conscripts as they can get their hands on. But they didn't have machine guns and artillery pieces to crew those defenses at their largest, most logistically and industrially important capital, and I strongly suspect that the situation has hardly improved for them since Vienna's fall.

Will the push towards Budapest and Pressburg be a vicious slaughter? Yes. But that's war, especially in this era. I don't think the Austrians have the capacity to defend both cities at the same time - they can maybe concentrate whatever they have left on one flank but if they do so the other will crumple and they'll end up encircled.

On that note:

[X] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
 
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[X] Plan Turn the Flank
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).

We've made a hole in their line, I figure we should use it. Pannonian Sweep might succeed as well, but IMHO it would likely be more costly.
 
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TheArcanist said:
Vienna has demonstrated that 'fortified' doesn't mean much for the Austrians. They can dig all the trenches and earthworks they like; they can even fill them with as many conscripts as they can get their hands on. But they didn't have machine guns and artillery pieces to crew those defenses at their largest, most logistically and industrially important capital, and I strongly suspect that the situation has hardly improved for them since Vienna's fall.

Will the push towards Budapest and Pressburg be a vicious slaughter? Yes. But that's war, especially in this era. I don't think the Austrians have the capacity to defend both cities at the same time - they can maybe concentrate whatever they have left on one flank but if they do so the other will crumple and they'll end up encircled.

On that note:

[X] Plan: Pannonian Sweep
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Pressburg (Orange).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
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Their lacking defenses around Vienna we're when we were interdicting their supplies! Now that Romania has entered the war, this is no longer the case. We are attacking head on into heavy fortifications against equal numbers of well-supplied troops when they have an open flank!

Maybe we can still drive the campaign to a successful conclusion, but we'll be racking up a huge butchers bill to do it.
 
[X] Plan: disguise, deceive, dumbfound
-[X] Reallocate troops toward the Polish front.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Polish front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Klaipeda (Gold).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Kiev (Red).

It's not going to win but I don't really care about an already broken Austria. Hungary is a backwater and I'm much more interested in weakening Russia than finishing off an empire we already took the best industries from. The next war is going to be even more industrial than the current one, they're not going to matter much, if they don't collapse under the weight of their losses.

Edit: Approval voting the one of two leading plans I like the most:

[X] Plan Turn the Flank
 
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[X] Plan Turn the Flank
-[X] Do not reallocate troops.
-[X] Prepare for an offensive on the Austrian front.
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Budapest (Pink).
-[X] Initiate an offensive toward Osijek (Purple).
 
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