Ship of Fools: A Taylor Varga Omake (Complete)

You don't realise... They are forged. Every. Single. One. And, running bureaucracies that never quite grant the cards is fun. And, if the applicant doesn't figure it out, then, they're not a good enough troll. :)

I remember at least one classic SF short story where that is the way all the higher-ups got their jobs, too. It's a test of both ingenuity (to GET the job) and an incentive (you have to do the job right to avoid bring bad attention to make people doubt how you got the job.)
 
In practice, the real reason the Ancients claim not to interfere with the 'mortal' realm is because the authors of Stargate realized that the Ancients should just be able to fix all the problems (except the Ori) with a wave of their hands, and that wouldn't make for a very interesting story.

That said, in-universe the evidence strongly supports the Ancients reasoning being a combination of near-fanatical hatred of the Ori and anything to do with them, and the fact that the majority of the Ancients really were assholes. This actually curves around back to my 'super-powerful children' comment; the Ancients generally behave in an incredibly childish manner, refusing to take responsibility for their fuckups, refusing to even admit they fucked up in the first place, getting angry at other people for breaking their rules despite having no way to have known of those rules in the first place, doing incredibly stupid shit (half-ascended Anubis) in a fit of pique without any consideration at all for the consequences and more. These are all the actions of a petulant child, and the thing about children is they haven't properly developed empathy yet; children do not instinctively\emotionally understand that other people are also real people too, a fault that many of the Ancients show repeatedly throughout the series.

The Ancients would rather fuck over half the galaxy in order to 'prove their point' and 'teach a lesson' to one of their own than actually address the problem. They're more concerned with getting their own way and putting others in their place than anything else, and it shows.

The Nox at least are willing to help some of the time, and most importantly the Nox don't leave their planet-destroying toys lying around where anyone can start fucking with them. In comparison to the Ancients, the Nox are quite responsible. Which only serves to highlight just how irresponsibly shitty the Ancients are in comparison, because outside of a few specific instances the Nox are totally okay with just sitting back and watching the Goa'uld genocide and enslave entire societies.

Also, if you go through the series and count all the times that the Ancients do fuck about with mortals, it becomes blatantly obvious that their 'we do not interfere with the mortal realm' bullshit is just that; bullshit. They don't interfere with the mortal realm, except when they do.
Incidentally, most of the time when they do they're just making things worse by either lashing out at someone who 'broke their rules' or taking stuff away from the mortals, usually after said stuff has already caused an only-just-barely-averted catastrophe, and just as the mortals finish cleaning up the mess and sit down to start figuring out the thingy and learning some SCIENCE! the Ancients show up to take their ball and go home, because the mortals aren't 'ready' or some nonsense.


Seriously, the Ancients are an entire culture of nigh-omnipotent, petulant children, a state of affairs that has only been exaggerated by their existence as glowy energy beings insulated from the consequences of their actions. The number of Ancients that demonstrate a visibly adult attitude can be counted on one hand, and they're all individuals who have had regular interaction with mortals and thus have experienced the consequences of their actions; a necessary step in the process of growing up.

The Asgard are the only decent non-human aliens in the entire Stargate universe; not only do they have a legitimate reason why they're not swooping in and fixing everyone's shit but when everything finally goes to pot for them they actually gather up all their tech into a big ole database and give it to the SGC. Neither the Ancients nor the Nox would have been willing to do similar in the same situation, no-one is getting their technology without prying it from their cold dead hands.


e: Their claim that they are not gods is also pretty laughable if you think about it, if you went to any non-Abrahamic human and described the Ancients: Energy beings of great power that can shape reality itself to their whims and gain even more power from the worship of mortals, and then asked that human what they would call such a being, they're going to look at you funny and go 'sounds like a god to me. Duh.' Because that is totally what ancient humans thought gods were. (And indeed, is totally what modern polytheistic humans think gods are.)

They are basically the living definition of small 'g' gods; not an omnipotent creator entity, but beings of overwhelming personal power who draw strength from worship. If they didn't draw strength from worship then I could see an argument against godhood, but once you're a metaphysical being of power who draws strength from worship, you are a god, whether you want to be or not. Of course most of that can be put down to cultural trauma from the Ori, but it's interesting that the Ancients apparently decided that because the Ori were abusing their power, the Ancients should therefore deny their power entirely rather than use it responsibly. Maybe if they ignore it for long enough, it will go away? (Oh look, more childish reasoning.)
 
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The Q and the Varga would probably be on fairly similar levels raw power-wise, given that the one time the Q went to war said war manifested in the physical realm as a sudden outbreak of supernovas.

Blowing up the sun would take something like a 100-km cube of white-dwarf-density antimatter. That's well beyond anything we've seen from the Varga. The extradimensional stuff and maybe magic might be a bit of an outside context problem, but the Q seem to have them beat in physical power
 
Just because Taylor and Varga haven't created white dwarf density antimatter yet, doesn't mean they can't make it. Just that they feel no need to make it.
 
Blowing up the sun would take something like a 100-km cube of white-dwarf-density antimatter. That's well beyond anything we've seen from the Varga. The extradimensional stuff and maybe magic might be a bit of an outside context problem, but the Q seem to have them beat in physical power

Not quite so much as you might think actually! You'll forgive me for not paging through 1.5 million words of story and who knows how many ungodly words of forum posts for the exact quote but IIRC matter and antimatter are equally easy for Varga to manifest; and it just so happens that white dwarfs are made of Electron Degenerate Matter, which is the preferred manufacturing material for varga summoned objects! The only thing we haven't seen is Varga summoning a cube with 100km edges, so that much at least would require further input from mp(pi) to clarify.

All of that said it still doesn't track well because again IIRC the supernovas were actually just the collateral damage of Qs targeting each other with weapons. Even if said weapons were broad areas of effect with essentially uniform energy density (unlikely, imho, compared to the weapon having an energy peak at the point it was aimed) then the supernova is only a small fraction of the total energy the Q put into that particular action.
 
You know, it makes me wonder if Olma, Myridin, and the other Ancients that are actually willing to help clean up their messes were actually adults when they ascended, and the rest of the Ancients were children when they ascended. I mean, it'd be kind of hard to teach and discipline unruly children when they are just as powerful as you, can rewrite reality at their whims, and are more numerous then you.
 
I think you underestimate the ancients. Or prejudiced.
Yes, they just left around "insanely dangerous and destructive things." However, these things did not cause too much harm, and earthlings always had time to figure it out, fix it, or run away (too often, so that it looked realistic and natural).
And what was the result of all these "insanely dangerous and destructive things" and "inaction of the ancients"? - One backward planet for some couple of decades has been uplifted to the Fifth Race!

And... why do you even think that these "insanely dangerous and destructive things" really lay unattended all this time? After all, the ascended are able to simply manifest ancient technologies just before arrival of the right people (SG-team), as they did with the gates on Abydos.

And Anubis appeared exactly when the Earthlings were already able to defeat him (what if he had appeared a year before, m?...)

Come on, ancients were able to foresee the future even before the ascension, why do you think that the ascended simply did not plan everything that we saw in the series? Why they should interfere directly, when they have ability to set up such a plot (intergalactic-wide!), that Simurg would cry in the corner and ask to teach her.
 
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However, these things did not cause too much harm
Didn't at least one of these things start erasing entire inhabited alternate universes? I think I remember one of them erasing alternate universes full of people.
Not to mention those superweapons Anubis used to blow up planets, and although if that was Ancient made is a bit of a question he was one of their problems they just left sitting around.
 
Apparently Ascension was more complicated than the Ancients thought. There were multiple levels, like rungs on a ladder, and you couldn't reach the topmost rungs without interacting with mortals. The Ascended Ancients, who had a strict policy of non-interference and tended to come down hard on those like Oma Desala and Orlin who did get involved, consequently were stuck half-way up the ladder and would never get any higher. To reach the highest levels, and become what in Faerûn was termed a god, you needed mortal worshippers..
Quote from story which sum up this discussion.
 
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So the Ori are more powerful than the Ancients and when the Ori invasion comes, we're all screwed
 
It's the size that's well above anything we've seen so far.
Varga's matter creation ability is limited by three basic things, two of which are relevant here: 1.) His current size determines his power, and thus reduces how far from his body he can create matter. And 2.) he can create any amount of matter out to a certain radius from his body, which is dependent on (and restricted by) #1.

Note that Taylor has effectively nullified the restrictions placed by #1.

I wouldn't be surprised if he could combine matter creation with his spatial warping to create vastly more mass than he normally could, since everything in the spatial folds is within the radius denoted above. A fully-sized Varga using spatial warping to ensure that absolutely insane amounts of mass can be made within the space near him could potentially create enough mass in spatial pockets to create objects of virtually any size, matching the Q for reality-warping potential within his radius.

And that's not including all the clever tricks that Taylor is capable of coming up with to stretch the abilities he's granted her to their breaking points and beyond. After all, it's entirely possible to fold space, so why not fold it in such a way that here is only a slight distance away from waaaaaaaay over there? The Varga could use that particular loophole to extend his radius limit pretty much indefinitely, throughout various parallel worlds and alternate dimensions.

And he can create pretty much any energy he wants in the same way he can create matter, from kinetic energy to radiation to...well, the sky isn't even close to the limit on this one.
 
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Didn't at least one of these things start erasing entire inhabited alternate universes? I think I remember one of them erasing alternate universes full of people.
I don't remember this... Anyway, alternate universes means аlternate ancients. Maybe they are screwed with their own plan? So it's their problem, not the ancients of the series' main universe.
Not to mention those superweapons Anubis used to blow up planets
We know what happened to the population of such a planet - all of them were ascended! Why this could not happen to others?
 
I don't remember this... Anyway, alternate universes means аlternate ancients. Maybe they are screwed with their own plan? So it's their problem, not the ancients of the series' main universe.

We know what happened to the population of such a planet - all of them were ascended! Why this could not happen to others?

Yes, they got ascended. Which got the others angry at the one responsible because Olma dared to interact with mortals again. Even worse, she helped someone else ascend, again. Hadn't they just ascended then partly descended Anubis as a means of proving to her why her helping mortals is a bad thing? And here she is breaking those rules once more! It's almost like she thinks she has the right to help mortals!
 
And what was the result of all these "insanely dangerous and destructive things" and "inaction of the ancients"? - One backward planet for some couple of decades has been uplifted to the Fifth Race!
The Goa'uld have their empire mostly due to finding and attempting to copy ancient tech they found laying around. So if the ascendeds grand plan was to create a fifth race they did it on the backs of slave labour and countless deaths of other races in the milky way. But at least it was "for the greater good" right?o_O
 
My head canon of the SG-1 universe is that the Ancients were loosing the war against the Wraith for a looong time due to an institutional and almost genetic disability to wage war effectively and in the beginning one group came up with an idea to fix this, create an army of people more suited to fight. So they snuck back to the milky way and modified the hominids they found with the traits they thought would make good soldiers.

They were probably found out before their project was completed but as usual nothing was done to fix what they had already modified. If the project was completed we would probably have had more in common with Klingons and Krogan than the other apes of Earth, redundant biology and regeneration would be good to have in soldiers after all. Instead all we got was an instinctive need to strategize, plot and plan plus some ability to ignore our own good for the good of the group or another individual when the situation calls for it that isn't found in any other mammal on Earth (for their own offspring sure, but for a stranger?).

Fifty thousand years later they finally lost the war completely and retreated back to Earth and discovered that the modified hominids had thrived and were starting to discover civilization. A nudge here and there and a few unauthorised dalliances and humanity was on its way, now with included ATA genes and the potential to replace the Ancients as a great race.

The ascended ancients from this period probably would come to see humanity as a way to fix/avenge everything that went wrong and thus stealthily nudged things to make sure things didn't end up too bad. Nuclear war or being discovered by the goa'uld would after all ruin things before they even got going.

Edit: The reason I think it took this long is that creating biotech on the scale that the Wraith did is not something done over night. Getting it to be good enough to take on a Ancient cruiser even at 100 to 1 odds would have taken a long time.

I imagine that it was a ground war through the gates for a long time with slow STL ships leaping past any blocks the Ancients managed to establish on the expansion of the Wraith forces. Territory was lost but it wouldn't seem to be much of a problem as a galaxy is a large place and every time the Ancients stood to fight they probably won but they didn't often do that as nothing important was threatened.

Later on when the Wraith had managed to become powerful enough to actually fight the Ancients is when things turned from a problem to a catastrophe and the Ancients started to actually loose more than a few people here and there and a ship every couple of hundred years. This would probably occur when an organic version of a hyperactive was invented.
 
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It's the size that's well above anything we've seen so far.
And he can create pretty much any energy he wants in the same way he can create matter, from kinetic energy to radiation to...well, the sky isn't even close to the limit on this one.
Also, something that hasn't been shown off yet IIRC is that, AFAIK, Taylor and Varga can create matter within 15 meters of themselves, or within 15 meters of any matter that they have created and are in contact with. Which means that Taylor and Varga could probably pretty easily create matter anywhere within the Bay if the road surface has been completely covered by Saurial's replacement road surface.
 
Right. Let's be real here. Varga can create or destroy matter, warp space within certain limits, anchor said warps within the matter he creates, and use perception altering spells. And.... not much else. He knows of ways of traveling through time, but consider them ludicrously dangerous, he cannot affect sapient minds (only perceptions), and has no power over the passage of time.

Q can change universal constants on a large scale, safely time travel, alter the rate time progresses in local areas, teleport galactic distances instantly, and directly mess with the thought processes of sapient beings (though he almost never does, as doing so goes against his purposes for interacting with mortals.) He can also create matter, living or otherwise, warp space at will, and create illusions that alter the perceptions of those he chooses to affect.

In no way is Varga on the same level as Q. However, since Q likely would find the chaos Varga would create amusing, it's unlikely he would interfere so long as Varga does not interfere with Q's own projects.
 
In no way is Varga on the same level as Q. However, since Q likely would find the chaos Varga would create amusing, it's unlikely he would interfere so long as Varga does not interfere with Q's own projects.

Q might find Taylor and Varga amusing. But what about Q, Q, Q, and don't forget Q. Oh yeah, Q, Q, and Q as well.

Side note, why is everyone in that species named Q?
 
Side note, wasn't the entire Q civil war (which wasn't very civil) over the right of Q to decide to die?
That was Quinn, actually. He wanted to be human so he could kill himself.

The Q didn't like that, at all. Immortals tend not to appreciate the idea that they could be killed. Luckily for Quinn (I guess?) Janeway took his side and convinced the Q to allow him to die. Of course, that led to the Q (apparently?) learning how to reproduce to prevent their own self-induced extinction, which led to q.
 
Q might find Taylor and Varga amusing. But what about Q, Q, Q, and don't forget Q. Oh yeah, Q, Q, and Q as well.

Side note, why is everyone in that species named Q?

Of all the Q, only Q (and maybe q) regularly and overtly mess with mortals. A few species appear to know of the continuum as a whole, but for the most part one Q is all any species has to deal with.

As to why they are all called Q; that's easy. They are aware beings from beyond their reality are watching them, and don't want to give out even a portion of their true names to those that can use such things. Therefor, whenever they might be observed from beyond, they use Q as a shorthand. They all use the same letter because the one most often seen is a huge troll, and convinced the others that it would further confuse anyone that can use true names against them.

Besides, the second Q we saw was called Q2 in the script (Q for short among friends and colleagues) and the third was Amanda. They aren't all Q. Except when they are, of course......

Or, the Q are all just trolling the mortals with the name thing. This works too.
 
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