Ship of Fools: A Taylor Varga Omake (Complete)

This was actually discussed after the Pioneer Plaque was launched.
There where objections that although universal constants where used as measurements (the Hyperfine transition of neutral hydrogen for a time period) they used an arrow to denote the probe leaving the solar system. People pointed out that an arrow only makes sense as a symbol with the cultural background of a hunters arrow.
 
different number-base would be the easiest complication we could get, we already have a history of that in human culture, hell, the damn feet/inches system is a remnant of the 12-base.
 
The logical assumptions built into the periodic table as humans use it are as follows:

1) Sorting a list of the base elements of matter makes most sense if done by atomic number, with groupings by chemical properties affecting the structure of the table. I can think of other ways to organize things. For example, maybe the aliens structure things by base state (solid, liquid, or gas) at a specific temperature, and include simple molecules like H2O in the categorization? Or...maybe they prefer to focus on isotopes? They may have a strong preference for listing elements in the order in which they were first created in pure form. Maybe the civilization is so focused on metallurgy that their equivalent of the mohs scale is the most important aspect to them?

2) The aliens want to categorize things as a way of drawing conclusions. That's how human psychology works, to the point where its difficult to conceptualize a different way of thinking. What if the aliens function primarily through kinesthetic patterns? They know about all of the common elements, but their version of a periodic table would be a description of the process for creating pure versions of each element.

3) The aliens use a visual writing style in a range visible to humans. I could easily see key parts of the table shifting into infrared, or the whole thing being in alien braille, or based on chemical signatures impregnated on slates.

4) The aliens would use a grid-type layout with square blocks. Humans seem to prefer angular geometry, but what's to say an alien wouldn't prefer a spiral out of a central point?

So, yeah, there are a lot of things you can invent as to why a periodic table on an alien planet wouldn't serve as a very good Rosetta stone, as it might not even be recognizable as such by Earth explorers.

I suggest taking a look here if you need more:
Alternative periodic tables - Wikipedia
Some of them are just mindboggling.

5) Aliens use a base-ten numeral system.

Dealing with different numeral systems in different cultures would probably be rather annoying

And that as well. Even just on earth that we know of, we ARE using base 2, 8, 10, 12, 16. Even if only 3 of those are common. And historically, there's also been base 20, 60 along with several that lack enough research to even identify with certainty, and there's also some systems that have only had very narrow uses(some of which are not even "base -anything-").
 
And what looks like a periodic table could be who knows what else instead. It might even be a form of poetry. Or a shopping list.
 
There's also the Cistercian Numerals which are technically in base ten, but values of up to 9999 can be encoded in a single figure.

Hasn't really been in use since the Fifteenth Century, but it exists and was used in bookkeeping.
 
different number-base would be the easiest complication we could get, we already have a history of that in human culture, hell, the damn feet/inches system is a remnant of the 12-base.

The systems we use for time and degrees of a circle are so deeply embedded that we do not even think about them as a problem.:(

Edit 1.0: As a solvable problem. :oops: Try to get people to convert the circle or the clock to metric. :evil:
 
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The systems we use for time and degrees of a circle are so deeply embedded that we do not even think about them as a problem.:(

Oh, we most certainly think about time from a computer programming perspective. The most common calendar for computers has 365 days in a year, except for leap years, with variable-length months. Days are made up of 24 hours, each of 60 minutes of 60 seconds. Then seconds are broken down into subunits by 10's. None of this is a simple conversion. Add in the weird AM/PM notation for non-24-hour clocks, plus time zones, Daylight Savings Time (I am NOT a farmer, damn it), variable date display formats, and for business applications, the concept of work vs. non-work days, and you get a huge mess for trying to output dates and times.
 
5) Aliens use a base-ten numeral system.

Dealing with different numeral systems in different cultures would probably be rather annoying
Actually, when working with computers, most people already work with three other numerical systems; base 2, base 8, and base 16. Once you learn how to work in any different number base, converting between others is simplicity itself. Any computer could do so easily. Just determine all of the single digit numbers and the rest is easy.
 
not just pretty much has actually has updated that webcomic every single day since he launched it on 06/12/2000

And the only reason it ever had a missed day was because the host literally exploded. And even then, there was a comic for the day. The only reason it has ever been late is because another host burned down and it took four hours to migrate over. The man never sleeps, he has so far never stopped, and will never show mercy. He is a Comic-ator, and is one mission is to keep you entertained.
 
Once read an old sci fi story that touched on that. Explorers arrive on Mars and discover the remains of an advanced martian civilization that died out when their atmosphere fizzled away (REALLY old story.) There was art, sculpture, writing, books... but they were stumped for how to translate any of it. There was absolutely zero commonality with any human language, for obvious reasons. They had no Rosetta stone---

Till they found a science classroom. With a table of the elements up on the wall... no recognizable glyphs or alphabet of course, but it was instantly recognizable to anyone with a high-school education just by its layout.

The story in question is H. Beam Piper's short story "Omnilingual" and, due to Piper's suicide in 1964, it is public domain and available on Project Gutenberg (along with pretty much everything else he ever wrote).

I'd note that in the story, what acted as a key was that the Martian periodic table was in the same room as pictures of the Bohr-style atomic structures of the elements. The human explorers were able to use the pictures to figure out what the table was, and then started figuring out the Martian language from the periodic table.
 
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Actually, when working with computers, most people already work with three other numerical systems; base 2, base 8, and base 16. Once you learn how to work in any different number base, converting between others is simplicity itself. Any computer could do so easily. Just determine all of the single digit numbers and the rest is easy.
The issue there would be recognizing that the text you're trying to translate is in base 8, base 10, base 16 or base 39.5
 
The issue there would be recognizing that the text you're trying to translate is in base 8, base 10, base 16 or base 39.5
Not even that. Any competent archeologist is trained in recognizing those kinds of things these days due to the humans of the past not always using base 10. Ancient Sumeria for instance used base 60.
 
The logical assumptions built into the periodic table as humans use it are as follows:

1) Sorting a list of the base elements of matter makes most sense if done by atomic number, with groupings by chemical properties affecting the structure of the table. I can think of other ways to organize things. For example, maybe the aliens structure things by base state (solid, liquid, or gas) at a specific temperature, and include simple molecules like H2O in the categorization? Or...maybe they prefer to focus on isotopes? They may have a strong preference for listing elements in the order in which they were first created in pure form. Maybe the civilization is so focused on metallurgy that their equivalent of the mohs scale is the most important aspect to them?

2) The aliens want to categorize things as a way of drawing conclusions. That's how human psychology works, to the point where its difficult to conceptualize a different way of thinking. What if the aliens function primarily through kinesthetic patterns? They know about all of the common elements, but their version of a periodic table would be a description of the process for creating pure versions of each element.

3) The aliens use a visual writing style in a range visible to humans. I could easily see key parts of the table shifting into infrared, or the whole thing being in alien braille, or based on chemical signatures impregnated on slates.

4) The aliens would use a grid-type layout with square blocks. Humans seem to prefer angular geometry, but what's to say an alien wouldn't prefer a spiral out of a central point?

So, yeah, there are a lot of things you can invent as to why a periodic table on an alien planet wouldn't serve as a very good Rosetta stone, as it might not even be recognizable as such by Earth explorers.

Regardless,
1: there's only one set of atomic elements out there.
2:the relationships between them are determined not just by subjective observations but by objective material properties and innate mathematical numbers (atomic mass, atomic number, etc)
3:whether they use squares, circles, or rhombuses, the elements on such a chart will be arranged so that things with similar objective properties (number, mass, etc) are close together while others are far apart.
4:All other observations aside, the periodic table is not shaped the way it is by accident or subjective convenience. It is, again, a MATHEMATICAL layout, and in fact was created long before a good portion of the elements on it were even discovered. It's LOGICAL ARRANGEMENT was used to predict the discovery of dozens of elements before they were even observed in nature or a laboratory.
5: The key point?-- LOGIC. Any species that used a "different" elemental table than that discovered by humans in their chemistry lab would either be A)still in a relatively primitive stage of development, not having discovered the structure of the atom and still using something similar to the alchemical "four elements" hypothesis-- or worse, b)not even capable of using the concepts of correlation, cause and effect, similarity, sequence, logic, or math-- in other words NOT SENTIENT AT ALL, and quite possibly gibbering lunatics who wouldn't have been capable of building a chemistry lab in the first place.
 
I can't quite remember but I think it's a Harry Potter fic where he introduces the Klingon to peanut butter when they are trying to gross out a federation diploteam with gagh. The Klingon quickly agree that in the future they should present food all parties find appetizing, they find peanut butter extremely disturbing.:D

That's part of the Lone Traveler collection by dunuelos. Can't really say I recommend it, he went to some weird places with that story.
Dunuelos borrowed it from an older story. One on FanFiction.Net by AlbertG. A Universe of Change, I think, but I can't be bothered to check where.
 
But only if it was a periodic table of the elements. If it's something else, your entire translation effort would be wasted. No, worse then that. You'd be absolutely convinced you're right, but mistranslated everything. It would be like trying to translate Japanese kanji without knowing anything bout the language or culture.

Remember, when dealing with a completely alien culture then you can't assume that if something looks like a duck and quacks like a duck that it is in fact a duck.

This was shown to great effect in a Stargate SG1 oneshot fic I've read...

Basic premise is that the Predators are real in that universe but the films got two things wrong...
On the planet they came from, they are 12" high and have fairy wings. Everything else is correct and Tealc is very wary of them.
 
This was shown to great effect in a Stargate SG1 oneshot fic I've read...

Basic premise is that the Predators are real in that universe but the films got two things wrong...
On the planet they came from, they are 12" high and have fairy wings. Everything else is correct and Tealc is very wary of them.

Link please? You can't just leave that out there without a link!
 
Oh, we most certainly think about time from a computer programming perspective. The most common calendar for computers has 365 days in a year, except for leap years, with variable-length months. Days are made up of 24 hours, each of 60 minutes of 60 seconds. Then seconds are broken down into subunits by 10's. None of this is a simple conversion. Add in the weird AM/PM notation for non-24-hour clocks, plus time zones, Daylight Savings Time (I am NOT a farmer, damn it), variable date display formats, and for business applications, the concept of work vs. non-work days, and you get a huge mess for trying to output dates and times.

The Problem with Time Zones by Tom Scott
 
Predator/Aliens don't get a listed crossover. And do you know just how many BtVS/SG-1 crossovers there are? Are there any other crossovers that can narrow things down more?
 
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