Neruz
Rogue Spiderbanana
- Location
- The Land of Fire and Poison
He wasn't just watching, he was writing a book.
Ship of Fools: A Taylor Varga Omake (Complete)
- Thread starter Derek M
- Start date
- Crossover
- Location
- Maryland
There are a number of reasons why even an unchained Dragon would not have direct surveillance of Toybox, and how Ba'albreaker would be able to take over.
1) They are a group of tinkers (which means bullshit powers) that have a policy of maintaining their independence from other groups (including the Guild and the Protectorate), and that will sell to anybody who behaves themselves, can pay, and isn't asking for prohibited items. Anti-surveillance tech, at least within their building, would be a basic requirement.
2) Toybox isn't committing any crimes. Dragon has no valid legal reason to watch them constantly, and is too ethical to do so "just in case." If she weren't too ethical, then she would be heading down the path of justifying some of Saint's paranoia. Note that she did notify the local Protectorate -- who presumably felt they had better things to do than monitor a supervillain who was "obviously" just going on a shopping trip. (Somebody is going to get fired.)
3) Heartbreaker, like most villains, wouldn't normally violate Toybox's neutrality because they're too useful, and because it would bring down a lot of attention on them from both sides of the hero/villain divide. Ba'al doesn't care, because he never intended to stick around, and because he doesn't have an implicit understanding of local cape politics.
4) Despite Toybox having a bunch of tinker BS for security, they rely a lot on the cape balance of power to maintain their position. They make themselves useful enough to maintain their neutrality. In canon, the S9 were able to take them down once they were ready to go all-in, setting things up for the Slaughterhouse 9000 "send in the clones" plan that sort of led eventually to triggering Scion's end game.
Ashkari
(Verified Ink-slinger)
- Location
- United States
I'm dying laughing over this particular portmanteau. First time seeing it. (Just caught up reading this after a fair time away)
This isn't canon, though obviously that may/may not matter here. But it's a common enough mistaken assumption I like to point it out.
Miss Militia explicitly refers to them as being a 'black market organization' who sells 'less-than-legal goods' which pretty much says right on the tin they're involved in illegal shit. Relevant Chapter.
The part about the PRT generally ignoring them is actually also fanon - we're never told one way or another in Worm.
Last edited:
- Location
- Myanmar
This is false, they sold weapons to villains they're not rogues and they're black market organization.The one in the Lizards world may or may not be rogues but on Skitter's world they're definitely criminals.
This is what I was talking about about,I can agree with the other points about Toy-box (either cannon or fannon)but I'm pretty sure heartbreaker compound is watched 24/7 especially after Dragon is unchained and can run parallels or multi-task.I mean he live in Canada and he is one of the most hated villain there.Also Heartbreaker violated every unwritten and written rules, there is no way any villains would trust or work with him...
- Location
- Maryland
it may not be canon, but it is plausible. I actually think that chapter paints the opposite picture. If you're Miss Militia, one of the most law-abiding capes known, sitting in a room with Tagg, of all people, you would come right out and say it if they KNEW Toybox was running an illegal operation. Calling them, "less-than-legal" is how the law talks about things that are in a gray area. Calling them "Black Market" just means they don't follow commerce rules for wherever they happen to be at the time. Liquor and tobacco that haven't paid the correct taxes count as black market, after all. Given the nature of the Worm-verse, not submitting their work for approval to the Protectorate prior to sale would by itself constitute qualifying them as black market goods.
Given everything we know about how the Protectorate and the PRT operate, they undoubtedly hate people who skirt the rules in a way that protects them from retaliation. Add in the fact that Toybox are tinkers, who are up there with thinkers and trumps on the "recruit at all costs" list, and I have no doubt that Miss Militia is going to paint them in as bad a light as possible without even realizing she's doing so.
- Location
- Maryland
In the United States, selling weapons to villains is perfectly legal. In real life, I can sell a firearm to anybody I want as part of a private sale without doing any kind of background check or other due diligence. There are gunshows all over the U.S. on a regular basis where guns are sold and traded. I purchased a revolver at one a long time ago and walked out the door with it.
Now, IF a particular class of tinker good were qualified as a, "destructive device," or were explicitly called out as a category like in the case of noise suppressors, then the sale would require the involvement of a licensed dealer and the payment of a tax -- but it would still be legal (assuming it was legal in the place where you live -- local laws also apply).
As I pointed out in my previous post, the biggest violation of law for Toybox is probably that they don't submit their technology to the Protectorate for review prior to sale, hence the Black Market qualifier.
Surveillance without a warrant, on the other hand, IS illegal, especially for law enforcement. Dragon is a PRT affiliate with law enforcement powers. She would be required to obtain a warrant to watch Toybox, and to do that she would have to convince a judge that an explicit crime was involved, and the surveillance would have to specify type and duration. Dragon not being shackled just removes the hard-coded restrictions REQUIRING her to obey the law. It doesn't eliminate her ethical and moral constraints that cause her to choose to obey the law.
Ashkari
(Verified Ink-slinger)
- Location
- United States
Except that you know, failing to pay taxes and duties is illegal. 'Barely a crime' is still a crime, even if it's a misdemeanor or something the authorities don't care about. Claiming that somebody who say, pirates a movie, isn't commiting a crime just because tons of people do it doesn't mean it isn't nevertheless a crime which you could be prosecuted for.
That isn't to say that the authorities care. Take the pirating example, for instance; pretty much the only reason that ever gets prosecuted is when certain specific organizations try and make an example of someone; the vast majority of cases are ignored. Doesn't make it any less illegal, though.
The point I'm trying to make here though isn't that the PRT necessarily cares about Toybox. As I said myself, that's never made clear in Worm. You're right, there's (a lot of) wiggle room and the words MM uses does lead credence to the idea that they don't exactly try very hard there. Imo, particularly pertinent there is her mention that heroes also make use of Toybox, meaning not everything they do is illegal.
What my point is, though, is that claiming Toybox doesn't do anything illegal is flat out wrong, because if they are a black market seller they are by definition, doing something illegal, and thus are probably at least tentatively monitored. (Though likely not, you know, 24/7 surveillance by Dragon as was the original discussion). My goal here is to prevent misunderstandings between what is fic-specific, fanon, headcanon, and what Worm actually says. And Worm calls them a black market group that sells illegal goods.
Last edited:
- Location
- Beyond the Unknowable Veil
Good question.
Not that question. Why wasn't she watching HEARTBREAKER?
- Location
- Maryland
They likely do illegal things. It may simply be a case like Somer's Rock in Brockton Bay, where it is simply convenient to the authorities to ignore it.
Apart from wanting access to their goods themselves, the powers that be may assume it is better to have tinkers working for Toybox than for the Fallen, or the E88, or the Ambassadors.
Defining something as illegal to sell is...tricky in US law. In the U.S. I can legally purchase dynamite, fully automatic military squad support weapons, high-energy lasers, the materials necessary to breed bacterial cultures, and most of what I would need to build a nuclear weapon short of the actual fissionable materials. I can do all of this as a private citizen, and the degree of oversight ranges from "quite a lot," to, "what oversight?", depending upon the item in question. Certain drugs are illegal -- under specific circumstances and in specific locations. Custom-made drugs are a loophole similar to tinker tech in the story in that they have to be individually outlawed based on their chemical formula once they are recognized as a threat.
- Location
- Maryland
She was. She notified local authorities and the Protectorate (Toybox in this story is in the US) that a known supervillain was heading for Toybox.
Then she focused her attention on the alien spaceship from another dimension that appeared.
The failure here is that she assumed Heartbreaker was a known quantity, because she has no idea a Goa'uld was let lose in Canada. She could have spawned off a new iteration to watch Heartbreaker...but I'm making an assumption that she doesn't do that every time something atypical happens. Creating and re-absorbing an instance has to have overhead, else why would she bother creating children?
Ashkari
(Verified Ink-slinger)
- Location
- United States
Sure. I don't disagree, it is plausible. Like I said, there's plenty of wiggle room regarding how the PRT actively treats them, because it's never entirely spelled out. Anyone who wants to claim that's the interpretation they're taking in their fic, I say go for it. Do what you want. Ditto for saying 'in my fic, they don't do anything illegal'. I've got zero issues with deviation from canon. Kinda the point of fanfic, yeah?
But I get annoyed when people authoritatively claim something is canon when canon says something explicitly to the contrary. Particularly when it's something that comes up a lot. And saying 'they don't do anything illegal' is wrong because otherwise they wouldn't be described as black market by MM.
Edit: Oh, I should also add something of a clarification. Because in the US, things can be illegal without actually having criminal penalties. That's something I find a lot of people don't actually realize - that there is, legally speaking, a difference.
Edit2: Also, I ... kind of agree on the warrant issue. Certainly it's true IRL. I can actually think off the top of my head of a big lawsuit regarding the police using 'probable cause' to argue they were allowed to warrantless track some dudes car for like 6 months or something stupid like that, and they lost hard. However, Wildbow seemed to take a pretty cavalier stance on that sort of thing for the PRT. Good example is the whole lie detector thing. Pretty sure that's be majorly illegal to just wander around with. And there's other examples of crazy civil rights violations. (Cough birdcage cough) But that's a whole different thing and there's loads of room for interpretation all over the place there, for sure.
Last edited:
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Also, she had enough time to read philosophy (free will, ethics et al) and absorb some dystopian stories (like Terminator). Going all out big brother is something she could do, but doesn't want to. That means she has to stop herself at some line, and that means she's going to miss stuff.
- Location
- Maryland
Some other quirks of US law that a lot of folks, even in the US, don't get:
1) Law can specify criminal penalties, or they may leave the door open for civil penalties through lawsuits (e.g., copyright law). The processes involved are different. You won't get arrested, generally speaking, for a civil matter. Non-appearance for a civil case may result in summary judgement, however.
2) Even where penalties are prescribed, Congress can effectively gut enforcement of a law by removing the necessary funding from the responsible agency. If you have no inspectors available because you can't pay them, then it makes it awfully hard to enforce rules.
3) Government agencies are run by human beings who can choose to set priorities. Just as an example, some jurisdictions where marijuana is technically illegal have pretty much ordered law enforcement to focus on other matters, ignoring weed unless it is tied into other crimes.
4) US law is heavily based on precedent. The US Constitution lays out a Bill of Rights for US citizens, but execution is only obvious once precedent has been set in a court of law. For example, the Miranda warning you hear on every cop TV show is named after the legal case where the precedent was established that the accused must be made aware of their legal rights. In ground-breaking areas of law, e.g., the Internet and digital media, it may take some time for lawmakers and the courts to catch up and set precedent. Online bullying is really only recently getting to the point where the law recognizes it as a form of assault or extortion.
In a universe like Worm, where groups like the S9 are allowed to wander from town to town causing atrocities, I have to think that the law is even more loose and subject to interpretation than in real life.
Last edited:
- Location
- Myanmar
I agree with that, I wouldn't even asked about anything if this was any other villain but this is "Heartbreaker" the most hated villains in Canada where Dragon live...
They're not allowed to wander from town to town, they have kill orders.Its just Jack Slash shard and "cauldron" are helping them escape or avoid anything lethal to him.This is nothing to do with laws...
Edited : also there is a problem with Bonesaw tinkered plagues...
Last edited:
- Location
- Maryland
Actually, there isn't anything illegal about having a lie detector. The key factor here would be whether or not it is admissible in court. We have junk science lie detectors in real life, and they generally cannot be used to establish innocence or guilt in a court of law. The only difference is that Armsmaster's is a lot more accurate and works without wiring up the subject. An even better example of a technology that actually works is facial recognition technology. There is a reason why more progressive jurisdictions are passing laws restricting its use, as it is a massive privacy violation for people.
The Birdcage, on the other hand, is very much a civil rights violation. Having said that, the U.S. Constitution does not prohibit lifetime confinement explicitly -- it simply calls for due process and prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. Now, a civil rights lawyer would have a field day with the Canary case, given how she was railroaded and deprived of even the right to defend herself. The only reason why such weren't jumping up to defend her is probably Cauldron. Having precedent for sending away dangerous capes without due process was probably really useful.
- Location
- Myanmar
Yeah, I think Contessa probably needed Canary for gold morning or maybe as a back up plan in case Taylor didn't go full Khepri(even with her going full Khepri she needed Canary to control Goddess)
Ashkari
(Verified Ink-slinger)
- Location
- United States
Having one, no. But using it on people without their knowledge as Armsmaster does might actually be.
Ignoring the issue of potential violation of warrant/search/privacy laws and constitutional violations thereof, even in a law enforcement setting in pretty much every state using a polygraph requires 48 hours prior consent by the person being tested, and you cannot be compelled, by anyone (police, courts, employers, whatever) to submit to one, in any state.
Hence, I suspect that (using an IRL metric anyway) Armsmaster could actually be taken to court for taking them without informing the 'victim', because they didn't give consent. Doubt he'd get much more than a slap on the wrist, ofc, because that's how these things go, but the media would probably make a stink about it (like they do IRL) and the 'victim' could probably drag some kinda minor settlement out of it, just to get them to go away, I bet.
Though idk... maybe it wouldn't even go that far. I've got this whole thing on two party consent states w/ regards to how it's actually not the recording that's illegal but rather the sharing part (at least in New Hampshire), and thus you can record all you damn please as long as showing it to anyone is limited to whatever specific laws there are (such as impeachment of witness testimony in court - it's not always inadmissible!)
As for admissibility of polygraphs... yeah, that depends a lot. There's a few states where they're allowed under certain circumstances, but most don't allow them at all unless everyone involved agrees ahead of time.
Last edited:
- Location
- California
Armsmaster is probably allowed to have and use the lie detector in his helmet because of his status as a Tinker parahuman and has built it himself as part of his kit. It's admisibilty is questionable for any legal proceedings on its own, but a 'they lied during the interview' plus one or two other pieces of evidence could cross the threshold for probable cause for search warrants.
As for Cannary there probably were 'attempts' at getting her her civil rights, but probably a lot of issues like the court scenes in 'Bridge of Spies' to quash those motions and hideously effective PR campaign that 'masters are evil' made even the most stalwart proponents of civil rights balk and quietly complain rather than raise hell.
As for Cannary there probably were 'attempts' at getting her her civil rights, but probably a lot of issues like the court scenes in 'Bridge of Spies' to quash those motions and hideously effective PR campaign that 'masters are evil' made even the most stalwart proponents of civil rights balk and quietly complain rather than raise hell.
Ashkari
(Verified Ink-slinger)
- Location
- United States
Again, having it isn't actually in question. Using a polygraph without their knowledge or consent is, since actually requiring someone to submit to one for any reason is explicitly against the law. (And that's true regardless of admissibility or not.)
I suspect that a good lawyer could successfully argue that subjecting someone to one without their knowledge and consent is tantamount to requiring it, and thus violates the law. What actual (likely civil) penalties there are for that, I don't happen to know.
While polygraph tests aren't usually admissible in themselves in court, they are usually sufficient for probable cause and warrants. It's one reason why, as a general rule, if the police are trying to get you to submit to one, you shouldn't. Because usually that means they're fishing for that exact thing, when they know don't have it. The issue is that there's laws against them compelling you to take one (as opposed to them convincing you to agree, which is legal)
But this is getting off topic, and we're in the realm of conjecture anyway, so I'll leave it at that.
Last edited:
- Location
- Beyond the Unknowable Veil
It would have served canon Cauldron right if they got "Fuck you. Let humanity die! You've proven they don't deserve saving!"
Interlude: The Girl
- Location
- Maryland
Interlude: The Girl
Kiva was staring at her art project. She had been working on it for the better part of a year, now, but then that wasn't that unusual for her people for great works like this. It was her chance to be recognized as a named adult and a master in her field. Some people spent almost a decade on their projects, but Kiva wanted to be done in half that time. The project itself was a sculpture made of noka crystals. The crystals themselves were irregularly shaped, but had the useful property of sticking to each other with electrostatic force. They also refracted light in a prism, which is why working in that medium was also known as rainbow shaping. The best sculptures showed sophistication of form and complexity in the light patterns displayed when light passed through at different angles. Her personal hero, Malija of Cantos Province, was a master of the art. He was the crafter of the great sculpture in the central hall of the Presidium in the capital city.
One of the frustrating aspects of working with noka crystals was their sensitivity, however. They could be displaced by vibrations. They could be shifted by electrical fields. Even a strong breeze could throw one out of alignment. It's why completed works were sealed in shielded glasswork. She had a professional grade protective cover to keep her work intact while it was in progress, but she still had to spend the first part of every creative session inspecting it for defects and making minor corrections.
This session wasn't going so well. She had just started adjusting a section that had shifted overnight, when she had to pause and move away so she could cough. Sudden reflex movements like that could be disastrous in rainbow shaping, so she had long trained herself to recognize such things and disengage from her work. After her cough, she waited a moment...luckily, as she coughed again. Was there dust in the room? The cleaning bots should have removed any particles from the air.
The second time she had to back away from her sculpture, she began to worry that she was getting sick. While sickness was rare for their people thanks to modern healthcare, there were still some diseases that could cause problems. She went into her father's den. "Father, I've been coughing while I was trying to work. I think I may be getting sick?"
Kiva's father was an older man, a senior director for the Science Directorate. He peered at her closely. "Is it just a cough?" he asked. He motioned her closer. "Come here and let me feel your skin."
She did as he asked, and he placed the back of his hand against the right lobe of her forehead. His eyes widened. "Your temperature is high! How long have you been feeling this way?"
The girl thought back over the previous few days. She realized that she hadn't slept well last night for some reason...but hadn't connected it to her cough. "It may have started yesterday?"
He frowned. "I'm going to take you to see Doctor Tild."
Now it was Kiva's turn to frown. Doctor Tild was their family physician. He had been their doctor for years. Kiva didn't like him. He looked at his patients like they were puzzles he was trying to solve, rather than as people with sickness. "Do we have to?"
"You know how rare fevers are these days. I would rather be safe than sorry," he replied.
She looked down, slightly ashamed of her complaint. "Of course, Apan, I'm sorry." Apan was the baby word for father, but she still used it when she was embarrassed.
"It's alright," he said with a smile. "I'll just give him a call."
The doctor was willing to see them immediately, which was not surprising. Other than the infrequent accident or the birth of a child, medical professionals had few patients. Genetic engineering had long ago eliminated the most common issues, and targeted campaigns had wiped out most contagious diseases centuries ago. They were led right in to see Dr. Tild.
The doctor looked at her dispassionately, then turned to her father and said, "What are the symptoms?"
"She's been coughing, and she has a fever. She also didn't sleep well last night." Kiva was feeling a little dizzy, and she missed part of what else her father told the doctor. Before she realized it, she was lying in a medical diagnostic bed. Her father must have taken off her coat without her noticing. She could hear them talking, though they were obviously speaking quietly.
"This is bad," said the doctor. "Something is attacking her immune system, but I'm not sure exactly what it is." He said a few more things that were indistinct. She was sure she heard her father mention her sculpture, and there was something about treatment.
She didn't fully come out of her daze until she was in the aircar back toward their home. "What did the doctor say?" she asked.
"He said you need to rest. He also gave me some medicine for you to take. I'm going to ask your Aunt Kelar to come stay with you as well," he replied. He looked worried.
"I'm sure I'm just over-tired," she said. "I didn't sleep well last night. I think I had nightmares."
"We'll see," he said. "I'll make you some pinshar soup for dinner." It was a local tradition for sick children that rarely got made anymore, but her father remembered the recipe.
Neither father nor daughter noticed the woman in a dark suit watching their building from down the street. They would have felt anxious at her narrowed, calculating gaze, however, had they seen it. The woman watched their aircar come in for a landing. The girl was the key to everything, but getting to her would be a challenge, even for someone with her skills. Luckily, she had plenty of time.
Kiva was staring at her art project. She had been working on it for the better part of a year, now, but then that wasn't that unusual for her people for great works like this. It was her chance to be recognized as a named adult and a master in her field. Some people spent almost a decade on their projects, but Kiva wanted to be done in half that time. The project itself was a sculpture made of noka crystals. The crystals themselves were irregularly shaped, but had the useful property of sticking to each other with electrostatic force. They also refracted light in a prism, which is why working in that medium was also known as rainbow shaping. The best sculptures showed sophistication of form and complexity in the light patterns displayed when light passed through at different angles. Her personal hero, Malija of Cantos Province, was a master of the art. He was the crafter of the great sculpture in the central hall of the Presidium in the capital city.
One of the frustrating aspects of working with noka crystals was their sensitivity, however. They could be displaced by vibrations. They could be shifted by electrical fields. Even a strong breeze could throw one out of alignment. It's why completed works were sealed in shielded glasswork. She had a professional grade protective cover to keep her work intact while it was in progress, but she still had to spend the first part of every creative session inspecting it for defects and making minor corrections.
This session wasn't going so well. She had just started adjusting a section that had shifted overnight, when she had to pause and move away so she could cough. Sudden reflex movements like that could be disastrous in rainbow shaping, so she had long trained herself to recognize such things and disengage from her work. After her cough, she waited a moment...luckily, as she coughed again. Was there dust in the room? The cleaning bots should have removed any particles from the air.
The second time she had to back away from her sculpture, she began to worry that she was getting sick. While sickness was rare for their people thanks to modern healthcare, there were still some diseases that could cause problems. She went into her father's den. "Father, I've been coughing while I was trying to work. I think I may be getting sick?"
Kiva's father was an older man, a senior director for the Science Directorate. He peered at her closely. "Is it just a cough?" he asked. He motioned her closer. "Come here and let me feel your skin."
She did as he asked, and he placed the back of his hand against the right lobe of her forehead. His eyes widened. "Your temperature is high! How long have you been feeling this way?"
The girl thought back over the previous few days. She realized that she hadn't slept well last night for some reason...but hadn't connected it to her cough. "It may have started yesterday?"
He frowned. "I'm going to take you to see Doctor Tild."
Now it was Kiva's turn to frown. Doctor Tild was their family physician. He had been their doctor for years. Kiva didn't like him. He looked at his patients like they were puzzles he was trying to solve, rather than as people with sickness. "Do we have to?"
"You know how rare fevers are these days. I would rather be safe than sorry," he replied.
She looked down, slightly ashamed of her complaint. "Of course, Apan, I'm sorry." Apan was the baby word for father, but she still used it when she was embarrassed.
"It's alright," he said with a smile. "I'll just give him a call."
The doctor was willing to see them immediately, which was not surprising. Other than the infrequent accident or the birth of a child, medical professionals had few patients. Genetic engineering had long ago eliminated the most common issues, and targeted campaigns had wiped out most contagious diseases centuries ago. They were led right in to see Dr. Tild.
The doctor looked at her dispassionately, then turned to her father and said, "What are the symptoms?"
"She's been coughing, and she has a fever. She also didn't sleep well last night." Kiva was feeling a little dizzy, and she missed part of what else her father told the doctor. Before she realized it, she was lying in a medical diagnostic bed. Her father must have taken off her coat without her noticing. She could hear them talking, though they were obviously speaking quietly.
"This is bad," said the doctor. "Something is attacking her immune system, but I'm not sure exactly what it is." He said a few more things that were indistinct. She was sure she heard her father mention her sculpture, and there was something about treatment.
She didn't fully come out of her daze until she was in the aircar back toward their home. "What did the doctor say?" she asked.
"He said you need to rest. He also gave me some medicine for you to take. I'm going to ask your Aunt Kelar to come stay with you as well," he replied. He looked worried.
"I'm sure I'm just over-tired," she said. "I didn't sleep well last night. I think I had nightmares."
"We'll see," he said. "I'll make you some pinshar soup for dinner." It was a local tradition for sick children that rarely got made anymore, but her father remembered the recipe.
Neither father nor daughter noticed the woman in a dark suit watching their building from down the street. They would have felt anxious at her narrowed, calculating gaze, however, had they seen it. The woman watched their aircar come in for a landing. The girl was the key to everything, but getting to her would be a challenge, even for someone with her skills. Luckily, she had plenty of time.
Last edited:
Death_Sheep
Cat Owned
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Is this in one of the universes the crew of the Ship of Fools have already been to, or someplace new? The reference to "the right lobe of her forehead " makes me think Kiva and her people aren't strictly human...
