Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
I don't believe we've even voted to make a dragon gronti at all yet, so the cart is well and truly in front of the horse here.
The voting and discussion for making the dragon gronti was basically the entirety of the thread for the second part of the Runeversity vote where a bunch of people voted for the capstone to be a gronti because the wanted to build a big Adamant dragon 3 times bigger than a bloodthirster. There were discussions about making a Durin the lost gronti or something else but most wanted a big dragon. Therefor based on all that discussion at the vote Bungie and the others started coming up with ideas well ahead of time to keep things clear and hopefully end up with a better end product.
 
I don't believe we've even voted to make a dragon gronti at all yet, so the cart is well and truly in front of the horse here.
If you genuinely think the thread can be convinced to do something else good luck but I think a dragon is by far the most likely result.
I'd like to point out that the gronti is made to last. That fraction of a time is a fraction of essentially millennia if that gronti is used properly. And when it is used, it will likely be against a threat to the hold and the Halls themselves. A gronti with a varied arsenal that can change its loadout depending on the enemy may be worth its weight in gromril if it can take on a huge threat with the right tools.

As for Snorri's persobality, he believes in being prepared for anything. A dragon with a swiss knife for multiple contingencies is just that. That, i believe, outweighs having to use something as much as possible.

Ofc, that's not to say a set loadout is inferior. If anything, it'd be able to a certain thing or two, or three, much better than modular equipment.
We're dwarves. Everything is built to last.

I dunno if its really Snorri's personallity to be hyper prepared except for how dwarves are generally very through and meticulous. However lets take your argument as a given, Its fine to be prepared for everything however I'm specifically pointing out that its possible to be prepared for two things at once at no extra cost given we are not hitting the limit of equipment slots we can use. However modularity means being prepared for anything but only one at a time, so its less prepared for both things at once.


They don't? I could have sworn we made them all matching runic armor at some point...
Okay sorry so to be clear, the heartguard don't have any tiered/named equipment.
They have the capacity for 3 banners, a full set of equipment or two for the Hearth Lord and Fire Keeper and as many seige weapons as they have engineers to man them (currently 4). So currently 17 or 12 if I was wrong about being able to make a set for the Fire Keeper.
 
Last edited:
The key word you're missing here is the word expeditionary. A flying dragon with a modular mission load out is obviously not a primarily defensive asset, it's something designed to fly out and attack enemies.

If it doesn't do that, it's a wasted investment.



There's a fair chance that a gronti that stays at Kraka Drakk on the defensive will never get meter combat.

This gronti will be the symbol of our new institution, and tells a story of what we're trying to accomplish here. Is this a place where runesmiths work in safety to push back the frontiers of knowledge; or is is a place where they are marshalled to go out and smite the enemies of the dwarves on the battlefield. A dragon gronti is a lot more aligned with the latter, and I don't think it should be. The runesmiths of the north are already more than keen enough on going to the battlefield rather than equipping professional warriors who do so. They don't need any more encouragement.

Not sure what you're arguing here. I was clarifying that we were discussing pros and cons between modular and nonmodular weapons. Also I should clarify that I wasnt arguing for the gronti to be an expeditionary unit. It's main and true purpose is safeguarding the Halls.

As for arguing that investing a lot in a weapon that may never see much use is wasteful is no excuse to not invest in better defenses. Dawi live and breath defense.

While they may expend no small amount of resources to go out on expeditions to end threats before they ever reach their homes' walls, that is no reason not to invest in better defenses.

As for this gronti. It's a showpiece. It's meant to impress, to showcase masterful craftsmanship. But if I were to guess at Snorri's POV. He'd rather just slag this thing than to not eke out every chance he can to make it as powerful a weapon as he can that would contribute to his home's defenses.
 
We're dwarves. Everything is built to last.

I dunno if its really Snorri's personallity to be hyper prepared except for how dwarves are generally very through and meticulous. However lets take your argument as a given, Its fine to be prepared for everything however I'm specifically pointing out that its possible to be prepared for two things at once at no extra cost given we are not hitting the limit of equipment slots we can use. However modularity means being prepared for anything but only one at a time, so its less prepared for both things at once.

True, true. Well i dont really mind either way, just wanna talk about it. If anything, seeing a modular gronti just feels more interesting. And come on, there's no way Snorri wouldnt be tempted to do something unorthodox every chance he gets. Well, most chance he gets. :V
 
The voting and discussion for making the dragon gronti was basically the entirety of the thread for the second part of the Runeversity vote where a bunch of people voted for the capstone to be a gronti because the wanted to build a big Adamant dragon 3 times bigger than a bloodthirster. There were discussions about making a Durin the lost gronti or something else but most wanted a big dragon. Therefor based on all that discussion at the vote Bungie and the others started coming up with ideas well ahead of time to keep things clear and hopefully end up with a better end product.
We're Kraka Drakk. The Dragon Hold. Of *course* we're going to make the symbolic show piece of our massive undertaking a dragon.
 
If you genuinely think the thread can be convinced to do something else good luck but I think a dragon is by far the most likely result.
I'd like an elemental Gronti.

It's something new.

Something no one has done before.

It fits for what we intend it to be.

[ ] [Difficult] The Movement of Things Pt. 5b: [Cost: (14 -3) =11 actions] Master of the Odd and Mind for Constructs will proc.
Needs 2x 3 Research actions, but to me it's worth it.
 
True, true. Well i dont really mind either way, just wanna talk about it. If anything, seeing a modular gronti just feels more interesting. And come on, there's no way Snorri wouldnt be tempted to do something unorthodox every chance he gets. Well, most chance he gets. :V
I'm not really sure how much more there is to talk about this. However if we do continue I think we should stop talking about it with the term 'modularity' because thats not really what Bungie proposed. I'm concerned that hearing about a 'Modular Gronti' is going to make people think of a Gronti that can actually change its arms around or something, however that is possibly a violation of the rule of Form. What Bungie was really talking about was that the Gronti's arsenal should be designed in a such a way that they can be swapped out without compromising the Gronti's actual structure.
 
I'm not really sure how much more there is to talk about this. However if we do continue I think we should stop talking about it with the term 'modularity' because thats not really what Bungie proposed. I'm concerned that hearing about a 'Modular Gronti' is going to make people think of a Gronti that can actually change its arms around or something, however that is possibly a violation of the rule of Form. What Bungie was really talking about was that the Gronti's arsenal should be designed in a such a way that they can be swapped out without compromising the Gronti's actual structure.

Ah, well, modularity or no, i was more on thinking of more or less giving it the ability to switch it's armaments. So dont really matter to me if it's actually modular or can just swap out razor claws with hammer fists or whathaveyou.
 
My problem is that this plan is treated as some kind of set-in-stone thing. When was the vote that this shall be what we do for the next 5 turns? Where was it decided? I missed that vote, because to my knowledge it never happened.
Having proposals and alternatives is a good thing "If you like A here's a possible Plan A, if you like B here's a possible plan B". Behaving as if only one central plan is good and shutting down discussion based on reasoning of "it doesn't follow the plan" is not.
I don't believe we've even voted to make a dragon gronti at all yet, so the cart is well and truly in front of the horse here.
I'm not sure where all this criticism is coming from. No, we haven't voted for this plan (and the dragon it's aiming for). But we're going to? We're only going to do as planned for the next five turns if the thread vote five times for that to happen.
And saying "we shouldn't do x, because it doesn't fit with The Plan" is a perfectly good argument, because people will only be convinced by it if they agree with The Plan, and its aims.
The Plan has been extensively discussed - in the thread, and out - since the Workshop vote, with no alternatives having ever emerged, so it's not unwarranted to act as if it is the only plan - it is. The way to change that is to make your own plan with your own goals and have it be discussed, not complaining when an action you propose is met with a very reasonable "well if we do that we'll have to give up on The Plan most of us seem to want to work toward".
 
The modularity thing is less to have optimal loadouts and more to swap out certain bits when we fuck up the combo. Like the heart for example is meant to be a supplemental power source based on siphoning but if it doesn't combo right we can take it out and try again when we get the rune of sorcery/deep magic/MThungni or w/e. Realistically nothing is getting swapped once it's made except the heart if it doesn't combo right on the first try.
 
I think im seeing the argument, but in that case, it would be fine to ask Bungie on discord, what you mean by "modularity", from a Dragon Gronti that is going to cost 81 Adamant Bars. the modularity thing, is just Bungie, making it so that the scale on the dragon can be added on later, as full-on adamant. Which all on its own, costs around 32 bars of Adamant, rather than the 3 bars that were discussed in the original plan. So the only thing we are going to have that won't be switched in, until later is just the scales. And honestly, that's kind of it, to be honest. The organs, as Bungie has theorized, are just parts that are there so they can help improve the gronti and not make it completely go into battery-empty mode. Because the damn thing, is so power-hungry, it would be impossible to use it all the time, or else, there wouldn't be a sufficient way, of trying to go and keeping it from draining its runic power and stopping to a halt. This, was also an idea, in order to replace the concept of wounds on the thing. There is almost nothing that could possibly damage or be thrown at it to try and hurt it. So, it going and having a set number of charges before it dry's up, is something that we're hoping, can be improved upon, and make it so, it can be a trump card we can play, against any number of 5th tier opponents that we might face off against.

The whole point of the Gronti was not only to make a wonder that everyone could look at and go stone-cold dead. nut it was also to act, as well, a gronti. Something that would be completely in character to happen, where Snorri makes a big weapon and gives it to people who not only appreciate it but will also use it. Something like what we did, with TrollSlayer. It's why, their this big ass part of the plan, to try and do 3 runes on all of the major parts of the body. Simply because, it's big enough and strong enough, anything trying to cut it, or otherwise damage it by anything short of a DEITY, is going to be impossible to destroy. And, while not only being a great display piece, would regularly be brought out, by both the defense of Kraka Drakk, but also Khadzagar, and ofc, to also slay out to war with the throng, in case anything it proves to be optical, be killed with extreme prejudice.
 
Last edited:
Personally I won't vote for any plan that doesn't include buffing the hearth guard in some way. We are in a war so at the very least they need a decent banner, alternatively make a small adamant gronti as a prototype to give us a better idea of what adamant grants a gronti and give it to the hearth guard.

I don't like the number of casualties they have suffered so far in this campaign and feel we have neglected them for personal gain for a while.


Separate thing I am someone who is happy to delay the rune university a bit, haste means less time to research and we don't even know how to make a flying gronti at this point...
 
There are four reasons I have at least for why I don't want to expand the Hearthguard, and think it is a poor idea
Thank you for sharing your thoughts, but I disagree entirely.

First off, I don't consider equipping the Hearthguard to be able to survive inside the ash storm a priority project. Fighting alongside Snorri in war is a rare and minute aspect of their duties. Furthermore, tying into your third reason: I don't expect that, once a way is found, equipping a force of 300 would be much more onerous that 120.

Secondly, the Hearthguard do not need Adamant equipment to perform their duties and they themselves would be the first to tell us so. Sure, it would be neat if we could give them all Adamant gear, but it's a luxury. More a vanity project than anything truly necessary.

As for your third reason, the Hearth Guard to not need to each and every one be equipped with epic-level gear. Sure, it would be neat if we could do that, but it's far from a necessity. We're Snorri Klausson. We know how to equip large groups of people with the best gear practically available.

As for the 4th reason, it brings to mind a moment from the campaign.
The Chimera's middle head, seeming to sense that she is the cause for its burns, turns to face her, its bloodied eyes and weeping wounds doing nothing to the sheer anger and power exuding from its frame. With a guttural scream it plows through the Hearthwardens between it and her, tossing Dreng off its back with the suddenness of its movements. She stands, half transfixed, half terrified, as the massive beast lopes towards her, exposed muscle rippling as it picks up speed towards her. Idly she wonders if this was what Lord Truthteller felt, staring down the Ghorgons who would be his doom.

"Protect the Heir!" a voice shouts, and out of the corner of her eye she can see one of the Hearthwardens, one of her Master's nephews, a cousin, she recalls, rushing to interpose himself between her and the rampaging monster.

He would die, her mind supplies unhelpfully, eaten, lost, to keep me alive.

Karstah does not know how she comes to her decision, but she knows that she will not abide being the cause of yet another death.

No more running.

Only focus.
If this one brave soul willing to throw himself into harm's way to protect our heir was one of the recruits from number 241-300 rather than from 1-120, people would be less invested in his survival?

Absurdity. Nonsense. Balderdash. Hooey. Bunk. Malarkey. Hogwash. Poppycock.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to write a response explaining your reasoning, but I don't share your opinions and will continue to argue for and vote to increase the numbers of the Hearth guard.
 
Personally I won't vote for any plan that doesn't include buffing the hearth guard in some way. We are in a war so at the very least they need a decent banner, alternatively make a small adamant gronti as a prototype to give us a better idea of what adamant grants a gronti and give it to the hearth guard.

I don't like the number of casualties they have suffered so far in this campaign and feel we have neglected them for personal gain for a while.


Separate thing I am someone who is happy to delay the rune university a bit, haste means less time to research and we don't even know how to make a flying gronti at this point...
that last part is a fallacy, because of Dolgi, we have a rune that does allow us to have a flying Gronti, hence why it was discussed to have said rune, on the wings of the dragon, trying to go full western on this one, I'm afraid.

In terms of the hearthguard, we are planning on trying to help the guys but were really limited on what we could help with to be honest. We have a banner, which we can put into a combo that not only helps solve the damage they would take while fighting beside us on the battlefield from the ash storm, but also saves them from needing to breathe, and as such, suffocate to death from ash storm. The only thing we could otherwise help with is getting better metal, like adamant, but we are completely handicapped by how much we make a turn. With the full load out, if we ever got to 300, being 360 Adamant bars. We made them to the best of our ability, hence armored in pure gromril, but that's kinda it until we can fix our whole smelter problem. Though there was some talk of trying to find a couple of weapons for our champions and leader of the guard, that being Rudil, so there's that if nothing else.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, but I disagree entirely.

First off, I don't consider equipping the Hearthguard to be able to survive inside the ash storm a priority project. Fighting alongside Snorri in war is a rare and minute aspect of their duties. Furthermore, tying into your third reason: I don't expect that, once a way is found, equipping a force of 300 would be much more onerous that 120.

Secondly, the Hearthguard do not need Adamant equipment to perform their duties and they themselves would be the first to tell us so. Sure, it would be neat if we could give them all Adamant gear, but it's a luxury. More a vanity project than anything truly necessary.

As for your third reason, the Hearth Guard to not need to each and every one be equipped with epic-level gear. Sure, it would be neat if we could do that, but it's far from a necessity. We're Snorri Klausson. We know how to equip large groups of people with the best gear practically available.

As for the 4th reason, it brings to mind a moment from the campaign.

If this one brave soul willing to throw himself into harm's way to protect our heir was one of the recruits from number 241-300 rather than from 1-120, people would be less invested in his survival?

Absurdity. Nonsense. Balderdash. Hooey. Bunk. Malarkey. Hogwash. Poppycock.

Thank you for taking the time and effort to write a response explaining your reasoning, but I don't share your opinions and will continue to argue for and vote to increase the numbers of the Hearth guard.
To be truthful with you, most of Bungie was going about through the way of a mother hen, which as someone that really cares for our guys, is very sweet, to be honest. Though, as I myself said, completely ridiculous to not cap ourselves at 300. And, I do share their desire to make our boys have adamant armor and weapons, but more in the same way as with our capstone with the Gronti, rather than anything else involving said vanity thing. And, we can easily solve said breathing problem, should we ever get the actions needed for it, so Im fine with doing it at a later date. But for the rest, spot on my dude! Keep up the good work!
 
Last edited:
Runes: Master Rune of Everfrost (Freezes that which it strikes, creates cold aura around the user) + Cold (Intensifies cold of Everfrost) + Force (Creates a wave of pushing force that shapes the blasts of cold). Intended function: creating a conic wave or blast of cold that can act as a breath weapon.

We know from the examples of the Master Rune of Grungni and Skarrenbakraz that kinetic forces generated by the runes can be imbued with or colored by elemental power. The Master Rune of Conduction comes from Fire + Force + Transference, acting as further proof of this imbuement concept.

If this doesn't work as a icy dragon breath, we can give it to the Maiden Gronti who guards the Gates of Kraka Drakk, its basically sized as a great staff for a Gronti. If it does work for the Dragon, then we can take this and insert it into a slot in the back of the throat of the dragon, allowing it to shoot Ice Breath.

I will have to ask soulcake after Everfrost is researched what sort of things a Dragon's Gas Sac are used for beyond the Master Rune of Immolation, and whether a Frost Wyrm's Gas Sac would be better for Everfrost and this design's intent.

soul cake has said in the past that runes are generally disinclined to create mystical projectiles or the like, and that overcoming this disinclination requires "a lot of finagling" (RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest) Fantasy). I bring this up not to dismiss the idea of a dragonbreath runeword as impracticable, but rather to suggest that if we try for one, we should put a lot of effort into explaining why, in our interpretation, a particular set of runes will project energy at a distance. With that in mind, I think your proposal requires a more involved explanation for why the rune of force should be sufficient to turn two striking runes into a breath weapon. The comparison with conduction is helpful: that runeword includes both a vector rune and a rune that involves imparting a property to an outside object, and yet it only transmits energy through physical contact. Why should a runeword without the transference rune do better at projection over large distances? And I don't think the answer can be found in just saying your proposal has more power due to including a master rune, either; Snorri's old hammer had plenty of power, and it doubled up on conduction/fire in a way that corresponds to how you double up on everfrost/cold, but that clearly wasn't enough to let him shoot energy beams. Absent a fuller argument for why force should work better in this context than it does in fire/force/transference, it seems overly optimistic to expect it to function as a general-purpose distance rune. If a dragonbreath effect of some kind is critical, I would prefer something like:

Master rune of thunderbolts, rune of chain lightning, rune of cleaving

Thunderbolt forms the base of the runeword and describes the general effect: a destructive lightning strike. The rune of chain lightning adds to that base but also puts special emphasis on the capacity of lightning to arc between objects; it doesn't concentrate into single point but rather disperses, following the path of least resistance, until the energy of the lightning strike is expended. Cleaving is included because it includes the meaning of punching through something and continuing on the other side, but also because when a cleaving weapon swings, the path it takes forms the sector of a circle. It strikes within a defined area in front of the wielder. Cleaving works synergistically with the rune of chain lightning to further accent the idea that the lightning emitted by the runeword strikes not just a pinpoint but multiple targets that are separated by distance from one another. Altogether, the intended meaning for the whole runeword would be: a bolt of forked lightning that expands into a volume, striking everything therein.
 
The modularity thing is less to have optimal loadouts and more to swap out certain bits when we fuck up the combo. Like the heart for example is meant to be a supplemental power source based on siphoning but if it doesn't combo right we can take it out and try again when we get the rune of sorcery/deep magic/MThungni or w/e. Realistically nothing is getting swapped once it's made except the heart if it doesn't combo right on the first try.
I just want to head off 50 pages down the line when we have to break it to someone that no, we can't build a modular combining transformer.
 
I just want to head off 50 pages down the line when we have to break it to someone that no, we can't build a modular combining transformer.
Best start gathering notes, we are going to have this discussion again in a couple weeks when the next part gets dropped. Then we can start talking about the stuff we can, and cannot do. (Though foe modular combining, from what I can tell, either soul has said its something we can do, or he hasn't said anything on it. Take that as you will.)
 
Last edited:
Best start gathering notes, we are going to have this discussion again in a couple weeks when the next part gets dropped. Then we can start talking about the stuff we can, and cannot do. (Though foe modular combining, from what I can tell, either soul has said its something we can do, or he hasn't said anything on it. Take that as you will.)
...
Ermmmmm...
Bold stance for someone who is so wrong. 'soulcake has said yes or nothing' is an unbelievably optimistic way of saying "I haven't seen anything so its not impossible to my knowledge."
Soulcake has explicitly ruled out that items cannot be modular in a way that alters runes, and I'm also unable to imagine how we could have combining without violating the rule of three.
I do not have that specific quote due to how early in the quest it was, however my quick search did let me get these which are related.
On replacing things within a single object
A chain shirt isn't a major structural piece like the breastplate or whichever piece you've applied the Runes to, so you're good.
Which puts the upper limit of whatever degree of modularity is possible at structural components cannot be replaced.

And on replacing the entire Gronti with a better one while preserving the runes.
It doesnt work that way for Gronti Construction. By Snorri's reckoning you could do it like that, but you dont know how to get such a theoretical core to power the body it's slotted into. If at all. Replacing a broken arm, repairing a rune doable. Whole-body replacement? Thats unheard of at least from what he can tell.
Which also suggests that actual modular functions like changing arms, would actually be an involved and difficult proccess, which is why its important we keep a clear distinction between the gronti being modular and the gronti having an arsenal it can vary as tactically they are very different.

However I do wish someone had shown me that quote when they were talking dragon heart power talismans because I was pretty dubious before, so thats pretty cool that Snorri thinks a power core is theoretically plausible.
 
Last edited:
On the Discord discussion.

TLDR: As I said, I didn't initially want a cabal, was careless and laid the groundwork down for a cabal anyway and it was too big to cut down IMO, so I decided to control the flow of info better and make sure everyone was working off the same knowledge instead.

The arguments for and against were ones I considered for a long time. It literally took me months to decide to make a Discord. Ultimately, my decision making stems from a few simple realities of Rhunrikki's existence.

1. The quest was planned, idea-stormed and rolled for in a separate Discord. It got so bad that I was quarantined to given my own specific channel to do all that stuff in.
2. While I do a lot of stuff on my own, I did and do go over mechanical balance before releasing stuff in public with other people.
3. I got so used to it that I let a few long-term spoilers and mechanic plans through sheer lack of forethought. The mechanics stuff are largely moot as they've been changed since then, but the point remains that I spoiled stuff.
4. I swore those people to secrecy, as I said, but I can't remove the possibility of them acting on that info subconsciously when making plans. No one's perfect, and honestly swearing people to secrecy felt like a bandaid.

These things stand in stark contrast to my historic decision not to run a Discord to prevent Cabal-ism from coming to the fore. I felt like both a hypocrite and like I had cultivated exactly what I didn't want to happen.

So I believed that my options were to go cold turkey on Discord, or try and control what was there and make it work under my own terms.
I chose the latter, mostly because I can't keep my mouth shut sometimes and like having people to bounce balance against. I think if the number of people I did those earlier points with was small, say like 5 at most, I could have just asked them not to vote for the sake of fairness, but it had grown well beyond that point. Quite a few people already came to that server specifically for the quest.

If I redid this quest, gone back in time, I think I would have gone for the other idea. Have like 5-7 specific people to be my idea council who literally are not allowed to vote, plan or contribute to any plans in the thread. But that isn't what I had. So I decided that rather than have this hodgepodge mess of stuff hard to enforce and poorly enforced rules I'd just commit to a Discord to keep a lid on things. Cold comfort, but I've been much more diligent there, and for good or ill I have been consistently keeping WoG posting between here and there the same so that everyone has the same info to work with. The most spoilery I get now is the Patrons, who at best see narrative bits a few days before release and see me balancing the numbers of the final systems I've designed before release. I think if I updated sooner and kept things closer to chest then I can make it fairer still, as the longer I delay the more time I give people on Discord, which I'm committed to doing, but yeah.

Basically repeating my own point when I first made the Discord here honestly.

So I do get the criticisms, but as I said the cat's out of the bag IMO. I'll do my best to keep my WoGs the same on both platforms, but I can't do much about the long-term planning. If not my server then it may very well happen in someone elses at this point. >_>

Patreon is more me committing to it because fuck it, I've already gone and decided to make a Discord.

Um, in terms of less heavy stuff #Rune-Ideas

Hoarfrost: Added, future Rune.

Dilligence: I'll add it after making sure it isn't a duplicate of anything. Should be fine though.


Oh and Cultural Overview: The Northern Ranger should be up soon, a bit of something to digest in between updates.

In regards to the voting cabal:
If you want to get rid of it/reduce it's influence on the course of the quest you should extend the voting moratorium for plan votes.
As it stands the 2 hour moratorium heavily incentivses preplanning and group forming.

In my case, the quest tends to update when I'm asleep or at work.
I usually read the update when voting has already started and still have to get through 5-20 pages of comments afterwards to see what others have already considered.
At that point the ship of plan making has long sailed and I am left with looking at the vote tally and picking the leading option I like best/dislike the least.
Presumably the same is true for a lot of questers.
Basically the most important thing to get a plan through is to have it ready when the voting starts and a couple voters to get it up in the ranking.

I suggest giving a 24 hour moratorium on turn votes so everyone has the chance to invest their days free time into reading the update and thread and then consider options.
 
Back
Top