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Respect Your Elders v2 - Galactic Boogaloo [Warhammer Lizardmen Quest]

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Simon_Jester said:
I think that not having the Fall would entirely butterfly the Great Crusade and the founding of the Imperium of Man.

Because even if the Aeldari fall into civil war, there's no giant galaxy-spanning Warp-screwing explosion to cut all the interstellar transport links and reduce everyone to single-planet warlordism. Revelation or Adam Kadmon or whatever the proto-God-Emperor is calling himself these days has no real incentive to go flexing his muscles by conquering Terra and using it as a base from which to dominate the galaxy. Chaos never gets so uppity and that, too, massively butterflies things.
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Based on my understanding; the Warp storms, that was one of the main causes the Age of Strife for humanity, where a result of the gestation of Slaanesh; but when Slaanesh was finally born the Warp storms ended with a single storm of massive proportions; which created the Eye of Terror. This then allowed the Emperor to start his Great Crusade after he'd already Unified Terra.

Stopping the birth of Slaanesh from being born won't stop the rise of the Imperium. Stymie perhaps if by stopping the birth of Slaanesh doesn't also stop the warp storms dividing humanity. Then the Emperor would be slowed down dramatically and perhaps have to modify his plans.
 
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LysanderArgent said:
Based on my understanding; the Warp storms, that was one of the main causes the Age of Strife for humanity, where a result of the gestation of Slaanesh; but when Slaanesh was finally born the Warp storms ended with a single storm of massive proportions; which created the Eye of Terror. This then allowed the Emperor to start his Great Crusade after he'd already Unified Terra.

Stopping the birth of Slaanesh from being born won't stop the rise of the Imperium. Stymie perhaps if by stopping the birth of Slaanesh doesn't also stop the warp storms dividing humanity. Then the Emperor would be slowed down dramatically and perhaps have to modify his plans.
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If we manage to stop Slaanesh, it'll involve stopping the conditions that were leading to its birth, which were also what caused the Warp-Storms, and I'm not even sure if said warpstorms have really started yet in setting. As such, while the rebellion of the Men of Iron might still start, the Golden Age of Technology wouldn't have really ended, the Federation or whatever it was called at the time would still be a thing, and Adam would presumably still be enjoying being a scientist rather than an emperor.
 
01paradox01 said:
Yes, we actually CAN run away from the Eldar Dominion imploding. Don't try to make out accepting her offer as a straight up downgrade to refusing. They both have their own distinct advantages and disadvantages.
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I'm sorry, but that is just plainly not true. Isendral does not actually have the power to shield us from the fallout of the Aeldari Dominion collapsing, because if you haven't noticed she sure didn't have the good fortune of avoiding it herself. She couldn't possibly shield us from the influence of the formation of an entirely new Chaos God or the formation of the Dark Eldar, because not even the entirety of the Aeldari managed to do that.

Her offer extends to the best of her ability, and the best of her ability is not flawless.

Secondly, I never said that there weren't advantages to it. I said that there were disadvantages that I feel greatly outweigh any possible benefit.
 
My viewpoint?

Sure, we could relocate and be safe. It is probably the optimal choice for empire building...but we are Lizardmen. We have duties:

1: Aid and teach the younger races
2: Help life flourish
3: Destroy Chaos

If we stay, we will be prioritizing these. We will be prioritizing our soul and mission...
*Kroqs Gun* And Im all out of Lustrian Gum. It may throw canon into complete disarray. But we must make the try to kill Slannesh. Our Duty, Our Soul, Our Culture, Our People, Our Mission...they demand we must.
 
This planet has been the worst part of the quest for me, I detest every single action we have had to dedicate to dealing with it's bullshit and I would like nothing more than to be done and rid of it.

Xantalos said:
Yup, if your concern is how quickly you can grow into an interstellar civilization and advance your tech, accepting the offer is both IC and OOC quicker in that regard.
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Such beauty can I envision on that distant shore.
 
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I personally want to accept the offer. The story on this world has kind of played out for me and I am more interested in working on getting new slann spawning online and seeing what sort of people the new slann who form the 6th generation. In this case it would be a generation that has never interacted with the old ones and that are born in a whole new galaxy and seeing those differences is interesting. Not to mention we are going to need more Slann if we want to try and influence the warp at a galactic level and with a lot of slannpower dedicated to Isendral projects I don't see how we reach that any time soon if we stay.
 
cheesyme said:
If we manage to stop Slaanesh, it'll involve stopping the conditions that were leading to its birth, which were also what caused the Warp-Storms, and I'm not even sure if said warpstorms have really started yet in setting. As such, while the rebellion of the Men of Iron might still start, the Golden Age of Technology wouldn't have really ended, the Federation or whatever it was called at the time would still be a thing, and Adam would presumably still be enjoying being a scientist rather than an emperor.
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If we are that early in the timeline and we can 'stop the conditions that lead to its birth' then I agree. But I believe we are much further along in the timeline (already in the Age of Strife for humanity) and much closer to the birth of Slaanesh then you are implying. And I as I've said earlier in the quest I don't think we can stop the birth of Slaanesh; and I don't even really want it; because the birth of Slaanesh makes the story more interesting. I want us to try to stop it sure; but I don't want us to succeed; just mitigate the worst of Slaanesh's birth.
 
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cheesyme said:
If we manage to stop Slaanesh, it'll involve stopping the conditions that were leading to its birth, which were also what caused the Warp-Storms, and I'm not even sure if said warpstorms have really started yet in setting.
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To be fair, even the potential birth of a new Chaos God is probably enough to start serious warp storms, and I'm sure the "Federation or whatever" won't be having a great time of it even in our best-case scenarios. But hopefully we won't see the total collapse of human interstellar civilization that occurred in canon. That, alone, would be enough to make the Great Crusade and all subsequent events far less likely.

Because my impression is that it was that total dissolution of everything that had existed before that really tipped Adam/Revelation over the edge into becoming the God-Emperor of Man. Both in the sense of being a more willing agent of genocide and conquest, and in the sense of dedicating himself to being this inhuman engine of Making Stuff and Ruling Stuff, which in turn set him down the path to the total ruin of even the new (and disturbing) order he was trying to build.

As such, while the rebellion of the Men of Iron might still start, the Golden Age of Technology wouldn't have really ended, the Federation or whatever it was called at the time would still be a thing, and Adam would presumably still be enjoying being a scientist rather than an emperor.
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It would be, pun intended, a golden ending to the second phase of the quest if we somehow avert the birth of Slaanesh and generally prevent that entire sequence of events, then some day come across the wandering open-minded psionic scientist Adam Kadmon, who's sincerely curious about us and could never imagine mustering vast armies and fleets to destroy us for being Not Human because he hasn't been psychically corrupted and torn up by his own actions.

I can dream, can't I?
 
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Ehbon said:
I'm sorry, but that is just plainly not true. Isendral does not actually have the power to shield us from the fallout of the Aeldari Dominion collapsing, because if you haven't noticed she sure didn't have the good fortune of avoiding it herself. She couldn't possibly shield us from the influence of the formation of an entirely new Chaos God or the formation of the Dark Eldar, because not even the entirety of the Aeldari managed to do that.

Her offer extends to the best of her ability, and the best of her ability is not flawless.

Secondly, I never said that there weren't advantages to it. I said that there were disadvantages that I feel greatly outweigh any possible benefit.
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Do I need to quote what was posted again? Either way, the Fall of the Eldar was localized in what is now the Eye of Terror. I'm not saying the rest of the galaxy wasn't affected by it (warp storms and the like), but you're exaggerating Slaanesh's reach in real-space against the other races of 40k. @Xantalos isn't going to deceive us if we pick that choice like you seem to be implying. It plainly states that we'd be safe from Eldar intrigues for a good while and that we'd be in a place where we'd be able to expand easily into a reasonably well built interstellar empire. What you're saying contradicts what's stated in the post, which means you're incorrect.


On another topic, the Emperor popping up is probably inevitable, since Humanity has already been shattered since the age of strife began in M25. The fall of the eldar happened in M29. He's going to do his thing no matter what happens with the Eldar, in all likelihood.
 
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The Emperor isn't psychically corrupted, he's psychically fractured. When he got put on the Golden Throne, he basically just became a very powerful psychic battery. In the process, he lost his humanity and other bits and pieces of his personality. One upside to the whole process however is that while he is physically crippled, his psychic power has grown immensely, to the point of rivaling the Chaos Gods. That's likely due to the worship he's getting from the ENTIRE Imperium. I don't think elaborating further makes any sense, since it's a bit off topic.
 
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LysanderArgent said:
If we are that early in the timeline and we can 'stop the conditions that lead to its birth' then I agree. But I believe we are much further along in the timeline (already in the Age of Strife for humanity) and much closer to the birth of Slaanesh then you are implying. And I as I've said earlier in the quest I don't think we can stop the birth of Slaanesh; and I don't even really want it; because the birth of Slaanesh makes the story more interesting. I want us to try to stop it sure; but I don't want us to succeed; just mitigate the worst of Slaanesh's birth.
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01paradox01 said:
On another topic, the Emperor popping up is probably inevitable, since Humanity has already been shattered since the age of strife began in M25. The fall of the eldar happened in M29. He's going to do his thing no matter what happens with the Eldar, in all likelihood.
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Xantalos said:
Indeed, the Warp was significantly calmer than it had ever been on Mallus save for the times before the Great Catastrophe. With only three endless orders of daemons opposed to each other, the constant warring and struggle between the great leviathans of the Immaterium was lessened, and the turbulent currents generated by their clashes were less intense, mostly confined to the deep reaches where mortals did not tread.
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Xantalos said:
There were storms of psychic energy brewing with a slowness and surety that suggested they had been accumulating for millennia. Eddies of spiritual force beginning to spiral in on themselves in a characteristic, self-sustaining pattern. Currently they were not big enough to overtly influence the wider state of the Immaterium, but the slann knew upon seeing them that it would not be long before they hit a tipping point in size and intensity where they would begin to befoul the Warp's layers that drew closer to the material world. Even as they were, they held more nascent energy within them than whole cabals of Greater daemons, and loomed ominously in the far reaches of space.
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Xantalos said:
- The general condition of the Warp is calmer than it was on Mallus - the immaterial currents are less intense, the veil protecting the real world is notably thicker, and daemonic activity seems to be both less frequent and less intense.
- In the far-off reaches of the Warp, there is a rising storm of self-perpetuating energy that is slowly growing stronger. More study will be required to be certain, but it may grow to a size capable of significantly disrupting the Immaterium within a time period of centuries to millennia.
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Suffice to say people, humanity has not yet been shattered yet, The Age of Strife has not yet begun, for the warp storms had not yet truly begun as of 50 years ago. FTL travel is still possible, and worlds are not yet being dropped into the warp, and it is those two things that broke the golden age of mankind, not merely the Iron Rebellion. With just the Iron Rebellion humanity would have still recovered, and the Emperor would never have taken up that title.

Now, we have every chance of not being able to move fast enough, but if we can cockblock Slaanesh then there's a good chance humanity will come through mostly intact. It was the warpstorms blocking all trade and transport, leaving every world to itself to mostly starve that finally broke things beyond repair.
 
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01paradox01 said:
I don't think elaborating further makes any sense, since it's a bit off topic.
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Thank you for the info.
Talking about divinity makes me hyped to tweak our own pantheon more.

On an unrelated topic, I know that the Ayacmanik don't really get anything out of infesting Orks because the Waaagh tries to destroy them and because an individual Ork has no true sapience, but what if the Ayacmanik infected an Ork Warboss, or a significant fraction of a Waaagh?
Could they perhaps subsume that Waaagh entirely? Or can the overminds never come into direct contact?
 
cheesyme said:
Suffice to say people, humanity has not yet been shattered yet, The Age of Strife has not yet begun, for the warp storms had not yet truly begun as of 50 years ago. FTL travel is still possible, and worlds are not yet being dropped into the warp, and it is those two things that broke the golden age of mankind, not merely the Iron Rebellion. With just the Iron Rebellion humanity would have still recovered, and the Emperor would never have taken up that title.

Now, we have every chance of not being able to move fast enough, but if we can cockblock Slaanesh then there's a good chance humanity will come through mostly intact. It was the warpstorms blocking all trade and transport, leaving every world to itself to mostly starve that finally broke things beyond repair.
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Huh well that makes me reevaluate our place in the timeline. And honestly its convinced me to to vote against staying. I want Slaanesh to exist and I want the Imperium to exist; because it makes it more interesting; and if they don't exist is this even really 40k/30k anymore? I already thought it was a foolish move to stay, and heavily metagaming to boot, but I wanted to for narrative satisfaction. Now I that same reasoning is pushing against staying so...
 
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LysanderArgent said:
Huh well that makes me reevaluate our place in the timeline. And honestly its convinced me to to vote against staying. I want Slaanesh to exist and I want the Imperium to exist; because it makes it more interesting; and if they don't exist is this even really 40k/30k anymore? I already thought it was a foolish move to stay, and heavily metagaming to boot, but I wanted to for narrative satisfaction. Now I that same reasoning is pushing against staying so...
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See how the date of the War in Heaven in the quest differs from the canonical one. We may be in the Dark Era of Technology, the Age of Strife, or even the beginning of the Great Crusade. In fact, we don't know anything about the galaxy at all, except that Aeldari Dominion is on its way to its Fall.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Because even if the Aeldari fall into civil war, there's no giant galaxy-spanning Warp-screwing explosion to cut all the interstellar transport links and reduce everyone to single-planet warlordism
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You are right that if the Fall doesn't happen then it would entirely butterflfly the Great Crusade, and the founding of the Imperium of Man.
But the reason is incorrect.

The "giant galaxy-spanning Warp-screwing explosion" that created the eye and birthed Slannesh is what allowed the great crusade to start.

It blew away the warp storms (which Slannesh is also responsible for) that made interstellar travel near impossible for the roughly 5 thousand years leading up to 30k.

If there is no birth explosion, then the warp storms might linger around which is obviously be bad for everyone including us, unless we do something like create our own webway.

But would make it so the great crusade doesn't happen, or at least doesn't happen until the galaxy calms down.
 
Sapphon said:
See how the date of the War in Heaven in the quest differs from the canonical one. We may be in the Dark Era of Technology, the Age of Strife, or even the beginning of the Great Crusade. In fact, we don't know anything about the galaxy at all, except that Aeldari Dominion is on its way to its Fall.
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Where do you get that from? And even if that is the case; then if we don't know where we are in the timeline I can only go off our assumptions until new facts are presented or to discount the timeline completely. Either option would end with me voting to leave. So dunno what your point is exactly?
 
Rhundikki said:
The Emperor was psychically corrupted at one point?

Man I barely know anything deep about WH lore.
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When I say 'corrupted' I don't mean like 'external mind control got into his brain and changed him into a gross tentacle monster,' the way we usually use the word 'corruption' when discussing 40k.

I mean in the more traditional sense of 'absolute power corrupts absolutely.' I gather he was a relatively nice guy back in, like, 20000 or 25000 AD, but that he to some extent was warped (small-w warp, not capital-W Warp) into the domineering, callous jerk we know and loathe after his decision to pursue a path of galactic conquest.

01paradox01 said:
On another topic, the Emperor popping up is probably inevitable, since Humanity has already been shattered since the age of strife began in M25. The fall of the eldar happened in M29. He's going to do his thing no matter what happens with the Eldar, in all likelihood.
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Maybe. But there's shattering and there's shattering, and presumably the point where Adam/Revelation decided to become the Emperor happened some time during the Age of Strife.

01paradox01 said:
The Emperor isn't psychically corrupted, he's psychically fractured. When he got put on the Golden Throne, he basically just became a very powerful psychic battery. In the process, he lost his humanity and other bits and pieces of his personality. One upside to the whole process however is that while he is physically crippled, his psychic power has grown immensely, to the point of rivaling the Chaos Gods. That's likely due to the worship he's getting from the ENTIRE Imperium. I don't think elaborating further makes any sense, since it's a bit off topic.
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Well, part of what I mean is that even before that, he was a callous asshole to the Primarchs. A lot of the mistakes he made in life before being put on the Golden Throne are directly attributable to him being kind of a bad person and deeply fixated on grand ambitions, big megaprojects, and sweeping conquest to the point where he couldn't really even interact with other people as people, or see the Primarchs as sons in any meaningful sense of the word 'son.'

Zealous Specter said:
If there is no birth explosion, then the warp storms might linger around which is obviously be bad for everyone including us, unless we do something like create our own webway.

But would make it so the great crusade doesn't happen, or at least doesn't happen until the galaxy calms down.
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I'm pretty sure that if Slaanesh is never born, the warp storms that were gathering because Slaanesh was about to be born... well, they may not just all go 'poof' all at once, but I suspect they'll wander off muttering about cosmic blue balls.
 
Xantalos said:
Aye, this is an important note to make - the lizardmen won't be outright destroyed (unless you do some really obviously stupid things in quick succession after choosing to stay) even if you stay on Mochantia and get a sub-par result. It's purely about whether you want to try and see the plot threads through even if it presents some danger to do so. You might end up inconvenienced (and no I won't clarify what I mean by that), but you won't be wiped out. Take this as an OOC QM confirmation.
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The sublime communion considered the offer before them. if they took it, they could guarantee that they'd get the chance to build up in peace. It would be trivial to weather the storm of slaanesh's birth simply through sheer geomantic might. THey would be essentially unopposed before they were strong. No inconveniences. only the ~~guilt~~ lost opportunity of the chance, however slim, to prevent slaanesh from even being born. an...unpleasant calculus-and then-"
"So, guys, a quick check with future sight shows vanishingly small chance of our destruction if we stay. The communion and the plan will survive even if we stick it out with her and things go poorly"
"This does greatly change the calculus. The plan might be delayed. But we-"

"We will not have to give up access to an ally who can potentially give us the opportunity to prevent the fourth ruin from being created. We will not be risking the complete obliteration of the Plan in exchange for this opportunity. Not to mention whatever secondary benefits we gain that cannot be quite so easily predicted or easily quantified."
"Meaning has impact on the warp. The legend of us sticking by a close-welcome-ally despite the inconvenience will resonate favorably with us in the long run."

It was, perhaps, not quite the same thing as calling isadreal a friend...but it was a near thing. perhaps in another ten years or a century...even the stodgy slann would be willing to use the term, despite the embarrasment that using the term gives them. Which they'd deny experiencing, of course, while providing a completely logical description of what they were experiencing instead which was really just embarrasment in detached terms.



"We should ask her if she's willing to transport a small city to the offered planet, but keep the majority of our forces here, in exchange for even more support removing the curse from the stone."
"perhaps. we will be quite busy with the orks. will we be able to afford this?"

and so the nerd debate continued, but the overall conclusion was quite well established: they would stick with isadreal.
 
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