- Pronouns
- He/Him
Pretty sure we can still use the Level 4 Web, but sure, we should start putting some slaanpower towards Level 4 Infrastructure.
Respect Your Elders v2 - Galactic Boogaloo [Warhammer Lizardmen Quest]
- Thread starter Xantalos
- Start date
- Sci-Fi Fantasy
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer 40k fantasy sci-fi science fantasy science-fantasy kitchen sink space fantasy isha kroak (warhammer fantasy) mazdamundi (warhammer fantasy) magic empire quest actions have consequences dinosaurs ia ia kroak fhtagn lasers lizardmen qm likes speculation and questions slann what could possibly go wrong?
Xantalos
Turtle-Speed Writing
Aye, you get the power supply and such of a mag 4 web, just not the benefits and boosts that level 4 cities could enable.
I'll thank you not to bring continent-shattering magics near my husband's prison. Please.
Xantalos
Turtle-Speed Writing
Exercising QM privileges to doublepost - I had a really good writing day and managed to get the entirety of Turn 15's summarized results today. It's on my Patreon since I wanna give the people there some consideration for, well, supporting me, and also to build some further posts up until then. In any case, given that this is something of an unusual circumstance, I figured this notice was worth it. The post will be dropped here this coming Saturday, august 10th.
So, uh, good news!
So, uh, good news!
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Thanks, looking forward to it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Enjoy the sensation of having a fully caught up backlog and every expectation of giving people a fast turn turnaround time!
It is much harder than some QMs make it look, as I've had occasion to learn.
It is much harder than some QMs make it look, as I've had occasion to learn.
That's to get Level 4 cities, not a Mag 4 web... The issue with Level 4 cities is that we need the population to fill them, and our population growth isn't actually that fast. For now, building up our existing cities to Level 3, with enough of them to form a Mag 4 web... Well, I'd have to struggle a bit to get the numbers together, but I think we'd need a population well up around a hundred million if not more, just to actually fill all those cities to anywhere near capacity.
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And thus did the slann feel very sheepish XD.
... we can just put some Slannpower to spawning services. Not the most efficient use of our time, but gets the problem solved.
Now I wonder if QSkinks and cabals would be capable of spawing lizardman...
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Although we do add more spawning pools at each level, for what it's worth. Not sure the math works out better (or even different) going tall vs wide, but if we can spare the effort after all the other cool stuff we need (please please please slann spawning) this seems a solid bet. Long term it would be a way to make a better defended city if needed.
The more pools, in more cities , of higher city level under higher Web level.
All of those factor in. hard to say which ones are more important but do keep in mind some are additions while some are multipliers.
arguably increasing level of the web would be most impactfull.
Slan spawning services is funnly enough outsourcing .
You know, it's been a while since we had any new Lizardman breeds proposed...here's three.
Tree Skinks
While all skinks are naturally quite good at climbing and scurrying about with great agility, the tree skinks take this predilection to the next level. Tree skinks are noteworthy not only for their large eyes and slightly longer snout, but also for their lithe limbs, large hands and feet, and the enlarged gripping pads on the end of each digit that enable them to cling to smooth and solid surfaces no other lizardman can find purchase on. Their limbs are strong, but double-jointed or even capable of reverse-jointed nonsense that makes other skinks wince in pain to contemplate. As a result, they are less suited for heavy labor and industrial concerns, as they simply cannot carry repetitive heavy loads on their more delicate limbs. Sometimes, they even drop to all fours to scuttle about on their hands and feet as quadrapeds, claiming that this is the 'easy' way to carry loads on their back, as it distributes force more evenly amongst all four of their locomoting limbs. Their tails, however, long and prehensile, are useful as well to grasp and hold objects. They love to participate in grand towering construction projects, clinging with feet or tail to any handhold they can find, and focused on carving or assembling their work, hundreds or thousands of feet above the ground.
In point of fact, the very name 'tree skink' is a misnomer. This breed is not new-far from it, for many of the first generation of Slann beheld them at work long ago, toiling on the great polar gates in space. In microgravity, the skink's adaptations make more sense. Their dark nictating membranes protect the eyes from solar glare, their limbs are all workable as arms and hands, their balance and lack of motion sickness, all point to their true origins as orbital construction workers.
That being said, they are well adapted to any three-dimensional environment. With rebreathers or the appropriate blessings, they are adept swimmers and divers, on forested worlds, they clamber about like squirrels, and in urban mega-conglomerations, they can squeeze through holes and appear unexpectedly from any vent or passageway, or even cling to ceilings as they maneuver into position.
Feathered Skinks
Feathered skinks are, by and large, the largest pain in the rear and greatest headache the Slann will ever create for themselves. While skinks might be confused and argue about an order, Kroxigors might dig a trench four meters deep and 4 megameters long, and Saurus might stand around dumbly if they don't understand what is being asked, only feathered skinks will, cheerfully reinterpret the orders of a Slann, take what they are not given, and achieve results that the Slann did not intend, but yet which still align with their own desires.
The mage-priests-kings have only themselves to blame. They ordered that the magic of the Coatl be woven into the lizardmen after all, that the blood of the skinks should be made to run ever so slightly hotter. Not Warmbloods, certainly not that hot but....warmer. More free and loose, more capable of independance and change. Artisans, technicians, musicians, inventors, scribes, and in wartime, commandos and scouts, all of these can benefit from the feathered skinks amongst their numbers. Therein lies the problem and the reason that the Slann will never be rid of their problem caste.
Feathered skinks emerge from the spawning pools with only white or brown down clinging to their soaked bodies, but as they age their feathers grow more complex. They move from simple fibers to branching structures, to veined feathers to asymmetrical feathers that look almost flight worthy in the oldest chiefs and priests. As they age, they also grow more and more colorful, with new patterns developing as well. And as their feathers develop, so to do their minds, and their ability to...experiment. The very creative ability that makes them peerless artists, sub-creators, and clever devils to their enemies makes them insufferable to everyone around them as they begin to constantly tinker with and tweak the way things are done. There is no greater agent of small c chaos and generator of subculture and divisions within Lizardman society than the feathered skinks. But, by the very same token, the things that make them outsiders in their own society make them absolutely peerless in dealings with outsiders.
Saurus Jockeys
The Saurus jockey is the smallest, least physically capable breed of Saurus that the lizardmen spawn. They are inferior to their standard cousins in physical combat, and for good reason. Saurus jockeys are made to ride and drive, not to march. Their bodies are lithe and flexible rather than heavily muscled so they do not impose too greatly on their mounts, so they can ride longer and harder than traditional Saurus. While they are credible marksmen, their true purpose becomes apparent when they are place behind the reins or controls of a larger beast or vehicle. All-jockey crews are the hallmark of a well-prepared lizardman armored force, and even as mounted cavalry, aback cold ones, they are less demanding and wearing on their mounts than traditional Saurus are. Inside tanks, scout cars, aerospace fighters, and the gunnery mounts of starships, they are consistent, competent and aggressive operators.
Interestingly, the Jockey phenotype is not one that a Saurus must inhabit for it's entire life. Instead, the phenotype can be switched on and off, with the brain and body restructuring either for a life as a user of rides, or as a user of personal armor and weapons. This process takes time and must be commanded by a Slann with magic, but can be done en-mass to large formations all at once.
Tree Skinks
While all skinks are naturally quite good at climbing and scurrying about with great agility, the tree skinks take this predilection to the next level. Tree skinks are noteworthy not only for their large eyes and slightly longer snout, but also for their lithe limbs, large hands and feet, and the enlarged gripping pads on the end of each digit that enable them to cling to smooth and solid surfaces no other lizardman can find purchase on. Their limbs are strong, but double-jointed or even capable of reverse-jointed nonsense that makes other skinks wince in pain to contemplate. As a result, they are less suited for heavy labor and industrial concerns, as they simply cannot carry repetitive heavy loads on their more delicate limbs. Sometimes, they even drop to all fours to scuttle about on their hands and feet as quadrapeds, claiming that this is the 'easy' way to carry loads on their back, as it distributes force more evenly amongst all four of their locomoting limbs. Their tails, however, long and prehensile, are useful as well to grasp and hold objects. They love to participate in grand towering construction projects, clinging with feet or tail to any handhold they can find, and focused on carving or assembling their work, hundreds or thousands of feet above the ground.
In point of fact, the very name 'tree skink' is a misnomer. This breed is not new-far from it, for many of the first generation of Slann beheld them at work long ago, toiling on the great polar gates in space. In microgravity, the skink's adaptations make more sense. Their dark nictating membranes protect the eyes from solar glare, their limbs are all workable as arms and hands, their balance and lack of motion sickness, all point to their true origins as orbital construction workers.
That being said, they are well adapted to any three-dimensional environment. With rebreathers or the appropriate blessings, they are adept swimmers and divers, on forested worlds, they clamber about like squirrels, and in urban mega-conglomerations, they can squeeze through holes and appear unexpectedly from any vent or passageway, or even cling to ceilings as they maneuver into position.
Feathered Skinks
Feathered skinks are, by and large, the largest pain in the rear and greatest headache the Slann will ever create for themselves. While skinks might be confused and argue about an order, Kroxigors might dig a trench four meters deep and 4 megameters long, and Saurus might stand around dumbly if they don't understand what is being asked, only feathered skinks will, cheerfully reinterpret the orders of a Slann, take what they are not given, and achieve results that the Slann did not intend, but yet which still align with their own desires.
The mage-priests-kings have only themselves to blame. They ordered that the magic of the Coatl be woven into the lizardmen after all, that the blood of the skinks should be made to run ever so slightly hotter. Not Warmbloods, certainly not that hot but....warmer. More free and loose, more capable of independance and change. Artisans, technicians, musicians, inventors, scribes, and in wartime, commandos and scouts, all of these can benefit from the feathered skinks amongst their numbers. Therein lies the problem and the reason that the Slann will never be rid of their problem caste.
Feathered skinks emerge from the spawning pools with only white or brown down clinging to their soaked bodies, but as they age their feathers grow more complex. They move from simple fibers to branching structures, to veined feathers to asymmetrical feathers that look almost flight worthy in the oldest chiefs and priests. As they age, they also grow more and more colorful, with new patterns developing as well. And as their feathers develop, so to do their minds, and their ability to...experiment. The very creative ability that makes them peerless artists, sub-creators, and clever devils to their enemies makes them insufferable to everyone around them as they begin to constantly tinker with and tweak the way things are done. There is no greater agent of small c chaos and generator of subculture and divisions within Lizardman society than the feathered skinks. But, by the very same token, the things that make them outsiders in their own society make them absolutely peerless in dealings with outsiders.
Saurus Jockeys
The Saurus jockey is the smallest, least physically capable breed of Saurus that the lizardmen spawn. They are inferior to their standard cousins in physical combat, and for good reason. Saurus jockeys are made to ride and drive, not to march. Their bodies are lithe and flexible rather than heavily muscled so they do not impose too greatly on their mounts, so they can ride longer and harder than traditional Saurus. While they are credible marksmen, their true purpose becomes apparent when they are place behind the reins or controls of a larger beast or vehicle. All-jockey crews are the hallmark of a well-prepared lizardman armored force, and even as mounted cavalry, aback cold ones, they are less demanding and wearing on their mounts than traditional Saurus are. Inside tanks, scout cars, aerospace fighters, and the gunnery mounts of starships, they are consistent, competent and aggressive operators.
Interestingly, the Jockey phenotype is not one that a Saurus must inhabit for it's entire life. Instead, the phenotype can be switched on and off, with the brain and body restructuring either for a life as a user of rides, or as a user of personal armor and weapons. This process takes time and must be commanded by a Slann with magic, but can be done en-mass to large formations all at once.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
So I tried to do some math on this:
At Mag 3, a Size 3 city has a population cap of 100 (~1.6 million lizardmen). Its population growth per turn is "3+2 = 5," so it takes about 200 years to reach that cap by natural increase. Notably, the Size 3 city requires at least Population 25 (~400,000) to produce ANY actions at all due to maintenance requirements.
Now, at Mag 4, the city's population growth will presumably increase, but maintenance requirements probably won't go down much. My honest impression is that the flat +2 in "population growth per turn" is coming from the geomantic web being two levels above 'flatline,' and so we might just get +6/turn instead of +5 per city at Mag 4. Anyway, the minimum maintenance requirement of a Mag 4 city is 37 population (about 600,000).
So if we have 75 Mag 3 cities, with Itza and a few other Mag 4 cities being dismissed as a rounding error, then our minimum population requirement to maintain all cities is Population 25*75 = 1875. Roughly thirty million lizardmen.
Our total population in all cities as of the last time the spoilered stuff on the front page was updated is... 168 (Itza) + 280 (the other original three) + 110 (next two) + 100 (next four) + 80 (Yagoqua) + 400-ish (the other 17 Level 2 cities, roughly). Total population of roughly, vaguely, 1140 units or around eighteen million lizardmen.
In short, we have such a limited supply of actual lizardmen that by the time we scale up to 75 Mag 3 cities, our existing population has basically no time to do anything other than routine maintenance on the cities. Let alone building magitech space elevators and so on. Meanwhile, spawning in all those cities combined is giving us 375 population/turn or maybe 450 at Mag 4 web, which is nice, but not so nice that we can afford much further expansion.
So yes, frankly, it makes perfect sense for us to set up a big grid of Level 2 cities and upgrade them progressively as we get enough population to fill them. Overall rate of growth is fast now that not much is killing us, but the lizardmen are, as a collective of species, more industrious than they are prolific; they can build faster than they replicate themselves.
The feathered skinks are decidedly a 'person, not monster' breed.
At Mag 3, a Size 3 city has a population cap of 100 (~1.6 million lizardmen). Its population growth per turn is "3+2 = 5," so it takes about 200 years to reach that cap by natural increase. Notably, the Size 3 city requires at least Population 25 (~400,000) to produce ANY actions at all due to maintenance requirements.
Now, at Mag 4, the city's population growth will presumably increase, but maintenance requirements probably won't go down much. My honest impression is that the flat +2 in "population growth per turn" is coming from the geomantic web being two levels above 'flatline,' and so we might just get +6/turn instead of +5 per city at Mag 4. Anyway, the minimum maintenance requirement of a Mag 4 city is 37 population (about 600,000).
So if we have 75 Mag 3 cities, with Itza and a few other Mag 4 cities being dismissed as a rounding error, then our minimum population requirement to maintain all cities is Population 25*75 = 1875. Roughly thirty million lizardmen.
Our total population in all cities as of the last time the spoilered stuff on the front page was updated is... 168 (Itza) + 280 (the other original three) + 110 (next two) + 100 (next four) + 80 (Yagoqua) + 400-ish (the other 17 Level 2 cities, roughly). Total population of roughly, vaguely, 1140 units or around eighteen million lizardmen.
In short, we have such a limited supply of actual lizardmen that by the time we scale up to 75 Mag 3 cities, our existing population has basically no time to do anything other than routine maintenance on the cities. Let alone building magitech space elevators and so on. Meanwhile, spawning in all those cities combined is giving us 375 population/turn or maybe 450 at Mag 4 web, which is nice, but not so nice that we can afford much further expansion.
So yes, frankly, it makes perfect sense for us to set up a big grid of Level 2 cities and upgrade them progressively as we get enough population to fill them. Overall rate of growth is fast now that not much is killing us, but the lizardmen are, as a collective of species, more industrious than they are prolific; they can build faster than they replicate themselves.
These breeds are GREAT, though the feathered skinks definitely work best as "the Old Ones didn't specifically intend for us to do this, they thought we'd get the joke, but then we played it straight and it worked surprisingly well."
The feathered skinks are decidedly a 'person, not monster' breed.
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So, you're saying we need to find some way to convert industrial power into (lizard)manpower.
We probably should have pursued that automation tech more.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Easily rectified next turn.
At the same time, I don't think it's that big an issue, since we're not using the actions system anymore. My impression is that the level of action breakpoints are more of a mechanical balance than seriously imagining 'a given lizardman city really needs 100% of its populace - Saurus included - covering upkeep for several decades.'
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I don't know. Given that we're talking about magically active architecture that has to be kept punctiliously clean, free of debris, in millimeter-precise alignment, and so on... It's entirely conceivable to me that if a lizardman city is at less than 40% of its population capacity (about 160 of 400 thousand) for Level 2, or less than 25% of its population capacity (about 400 of 1600 thousand) for Level 3, the population of the city really is spending effectively all their time just maintaining the architecture, feeding the people maintaining the architecture, and generally living their lives, without getting a lot else done in terms of surplus labor capacity.
Because that's the kind of thing that happens when you have a ghost city that could easily house two, three, or four times more people than it actually does, and you need to make sure that city shines and that jungle undergrowth doesn't creep into it and start levering the buildings apart and so on.
I think we just need to accept some common-sense limits on our expansion rate; it's not difficult and we're not even being asked to math this out. It's just that IF we overbuild, we run into a sort of natural brake on our expansion because we've got two or three times more living space than we do lizardmen. Until the spawning pools catch up, the existing population is too busy to accomplish much other than maintaining what already exists.
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Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
The mention of our troops being able to fight Daemons in the Warp has made me imagine a situation of a Chaos Sorcerer ripping open a portal and the response of our troops being to kill themselves (much to everyone's confusion) to both plug the hole and to ambush the Sorcerer by sending a team back through the portal to shank them.
Jensaarai
Sing Victory Everlasting
- Pronouns
- They/Them
like killing yourself in a team-based game so you can teleport back to the home base while it's under attack
Sinsystems
Patron Librarian
Or setting your spawn point to the enemy base before doing so.
Xantalos
Turtle-Speed Writing
There is some necessary amount of maintenance, if less than what you'd expect without magical architecture that holds itself together. You just build big enough that there's still a lot to do. This is part of what kept the lizardmen on Mallus handicapped for thousands of years - a lot of your spare population back then was tied up trying to maintain what cities you had left as well as repair destroyed ones in preparation for recolonization attempts (Xahutec in particular was guilty of this, at least 12 full reclamation attempts failed before you settled for keeping an eye on it and the warp rift therein from outposts outside the city proper).
It's a system intended to encourage basically the sort of expansion y'all are doing right now - bunch of uber-fortified fortresses in the center of your holdings, which gradually get less and less dense the further out you go. That or a bunch of more moderately-defended blobs separated by bigger distances, but that's more of a thing for the interstellar stage.
It's a system intended to encourage basically the sort of expansion y'all are doing right now - bunch of uber-fortified fortresses in the center of your holdings, which gradually get less and less dense the further out you go. That or a bunch of more moderately-defended blobs separated by bigger distances, but that's more of a thing for the interstellar stage.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Hypothetically what city level would a hive city equivalent be, where the main spire reaches up to the edge of space in standard 40k over the top goofiness.
Xantalos
Turtle-Speed Writing
Probably level 8ish for the biggest pyramid to be able to reach into low orbit, but as far as actual size/square footage, a hive city proper is probably the size of a level 5 or 6 city, just with about 100 times the max population of Itza (which can fit 40 million or so) stuffed into it. So a modest few billion per hive, unless I've misremembered figures.
Hive cities are hell on earth.
- Location
- Canada
I can't wait until we get into the stupid high numbers of the Billions upon Billions of Lizardmen, along the Dinosaurs and our other beasts. Just a wonderous sight with the Jurassic Park Theme being blasted as we tear apart some poor fools.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
~10 million in Itza, given each point is approximately 16,000 lizardmen. Which translates to 1 billion per hive, but the exact figures don't matter.
As you said, hive worlds are hell on earth, and a result of the Imperial tendency to demand rather than invest.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Under the old rules Itza had a peak population of 25,000,000, and I'm not sure to what extent Xantalos mentally revised things. I think our "max pop" mechanics may have some wiggle room, in that Itza could probably house more lizardmen than its theoretical limit and it's not like the skinks would complain, even if that's not really something we'd do as part of normal lizardmen "best practices."
- Pronouns
- He/His/etc
Overpopulation probably decreases the efficiency of the geomantic web inside the city and leads to a net decrease in productivity compared to the 'correct' population. Only worth doing if you're building up in anticipation of a big expedition or massive casualties.
Can we research non-Euclidean geometry and expand Itza in extra dimensions, thereby raising the pop cap? 