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Respect Your Elders v2 - Galactic Boogaloo [Warhammer Lizardmen Quest]

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ilbgar123 said:
While 7/8 Winds were out in full force here, it seems that the green, red, white, and purple Winds are the ones the Orks are most closely connected to. Green is obvious, red for fast, white as the opposite of their association of black with something to be afraid of(so, their confusion over non-Orks killing their Bosses shortcircuiting their system for a while can be said to be represented by Ulgu, as opposed to Hysh/white which comes to the fore when the Waagh! Field detects a threat to it's hierarchy like what Mazdamundi is doing), and purple because of Kommandos, who prioritize killing the enemy over their usual concerns about mucking about.
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White is deff. Probably representative of the risk the ritual poses and its conviction to kill us first.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
I'm also confused about the idea of Magic Wind pairing in general. I've never heard of the concept before. While it makes sense for some winds to be naturally inverted in a sense with other winds--like Shyish and Ghyran--others really don't (like Azyr and Ghur, where they don't really have much relation to each other at all).
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The thing about the winds is they are still ultimately conceptial forces. For that reason, it is possible to make diametrically opposed pillars using the winds. Of course, since they are conceptual, there's no requirement that the pillars be consistent between systems, only that the paired winds have something to them that is opposite to the nature of another wind. Chances are most the winds can actually be made into diametrically opposed pillars with most the other winds. Its just finding the right parts of those concepts to play off of.
 
Really hoping that the Lizardmen and the Imperium of Man end up becoming allies, at least to some degree. Kind of hard to imagine how the Emperor could look at a race tailor-made by the Old Ones to be the antithesis of Chaos while also not being axiomatically driven to steamrolling over other peoples in the pursuit of their goals and think anything other than "these guys are must-have for an alliance".

Given the lack of any bad history with the Lizardmen (as compared with the Eldar), the lack of any colossal fuckups (like creating Slaanesh), the lack of arrogance or condescension (as opposed to the Eldar), and the Lizardmen's literal immunity to Chaos corruption (seriously, how can you pass up allies who have that trait?), the obstacles preventing this kind of relationship with the post-Fall Eldar and the Imperium just don't exist with the Lizardmen. And come to think of it, I can only imagine how much help it would be for Lizardmen experts to assist in helping humanity figure out how to deal with its emerging psykers.

And I can only imagine how cool it would be for a Primarch to be raised by Lizardmen. Between the Emperor being worried about each of his sons being sent into gods-know what kind of situation, finding out that an alien civilization had taken one of said sons in, raised him well, taught him much, and even helped to prepare him against the threats of Chaos and Orks would be quite the shock, I imagine.
 
Emps didn't have any objections when the Crusade steamrolled over human-alien alliances and other non-aggressive nations in canon, so I'm not totally sure why he'd suddenly care now just because it's the quest protagonists he's interacting with.

I honestly hope the Imperium of Man is still around in some form in our future, and they're still high on their own brand of bullshit. I wouldn't object to nabbing/adopting a Primarch, but I'd also like to keep our international relationship at something like "ugh, why do these bastards keep messing up all our very finely orchestrated stellar engineering?!"

edit; and the Tau would be a better ally anyways, if they still exist in this quest's future.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
Really hoping that the Lizardmen and the Imperium of Man end up becoming allies, at least to some degree. Kind of hard to imagine how the Emperor could look at a race tailor-made by the Old Ones to be the antithesis of Chaos while also not being axiomatically driven to steamrolling over other peoples in the pursuit of their goals and think anything other than "these guys are must-have for an alliance".
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Because he is a fascist. Being war-mongering idiots is what they do.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Really hoping that the Lizardmen and the Imperium of Man end up becoming allies, at least to some degree. Kind of hard to imagine how the Emperor could look at a race tailor-made by the Old Ones to be the antithesis of Chaos while also not being axiomatically driven to steamrolling over other peoples in the pursuit of their goals and think anything other than "these guys are must-have for an alliance".
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Leaving aside the people high on their horse about 'muh fascism' when 40k Imperium was fallen rome and 30k was expansionist rome at its height, the main issue with xenos/human mixes were usually the case of humans being subservient to the xenos and the Emperor's drive to unite and consolidate all humanity into one polity under it's own directive under the Council of Terra.

provided there are no humans in the Lizardman territory, at the very least that removes that angle of conflict and without that, you have the way open for negotiations like the Laer were going to get before Fulgrim got the bug up his bum.

Big E has a LOT of problems, creating one by picking a fight with a species he can just leave alone and still serve the Imperium's interests does not benefit his plans at. After that, once he's set up the webway and humanity is ruling itself...that's on them.
 
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argenten said:
Leaving aside the people high on their horse about 'muh fascism' when 40k Imperium was fallen rome and 30k was expansionist rome at its height, the main issue with xenos/human mixes were usually the case of humans being subservient to the xenos and the Emperor's drive to unite and consolidate all humanity into one polity under it's own directive under the Council of Terra.

provided there are no humans in the Lizardman territory, at the very least that removes that angle of conflict and without that, you have the way open for negotiations like the Laer were going to get before Fulgrim got the bug up his bum.

Big E has a LOT of problems, creating one by picking a fight with a species he can just leave alone and still serve the Imperium's interests does not benefit his plans at. After that, once he's set up the webway and humanity is ruling itself...that's on them.
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40k imperium is incredibly fascist. What with 'alien, mutant, heretic' talk. Don't give me none of that 'muh fascism' talk. The 30k Imperium explicitly wiped out human/alien polities where the two were living side by side. They also wiped out polities that didn't want to join. The Emperor never chastised or rebuked any of the primaries for this giving them his implicit permission to engage in this behavior if they wanted to. They did and they did.

His hands drip with the blood of the innocent and the earth beneath him cries out for justice. Even if his hand wasn't the one that swung the sword he merely had to speak and it would have halted all the same. Don't dress Big E or the Imperium to be something it isn't

If you want to talk about allegories then the Imperium is very obviously Britain, with 40k Imperium being Margaret Thatchers Britain. This is explicit I believe. It certainly isn't an allegory for *rome*.
 
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Tyranid Steve said:
What would be the best primarch to teach, or parent? I'm thinking either Magnus or Perturabo
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Depends on when they were found, Magnus has that hubris problem and Pert is willing to learn but has the whole perpetual superiority complex/inferiority complex that the Tyrant of Olympia trained into him. Might end up being Sanguinius, he got along well with the Silent King after all.

Overall I think the best we can and should hope for is a "You stay in your corner, we stay in ours." treaty. The Imperium in 30k WAS an expansionist empire at the very least in the sense of trying to reclaim/reconquer humanity from other empires that often were as strong as itself, and would either take out xenos races that refused to deal or were too much of a threat to do so, which is the same for any other polity in the setting.

Might be best to study how they communicate (learn high gothic and so on) and set up warnings in advance of our territory so at the very least there's no question that we have this turf, no humans in this area, and we won't be conquered.

Anything after that is then on them, but at the very least it should at least lead to a 'kick the problem up the ladder' situation until it gets to a primarch. Long as we don't get Fulgrim...actually, might be possible to challenge Fulgrim to a series of contests to prove humanity's mettle.
 
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Its impressove people keep banging on about the IoM when the age of strife has yet to even happen and might not happen. Straight up, the question of what the hell Emps does during the AoS is likely something that will be decided dozens of turns from now.
 
Daedwartin said:
Its impressove people keep banging on about the IoM when the age of strife has yet to even happen and might not happen. Straight up, the question of what the hell Emps does during the AoS is likely something that will be decided dozens of turns from now.
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He's an easy strawman to tilt against and then pat yourself on the back for doing so, so SV is always going to have people that indulge in it. Same for the Imperium, as by 40k it IS an unrepentant mess and everyone knows it.

Honestly, as you point out, we're so far back from that that other than idle musing on primarchs and such, there's so much up in the air that planning for that is really not worth the investment.

Plus, I'm still hoping the Communion can poke the nascent slaanesh so that it basically splits off into a pantheon rather than a full chaos god.

An actual Eldar mortal and divine civil war sounds fun.
 
Professor Vesca said:
40k imperium is incredibly fascist. What with 'alien, mutant, heretic' talk. Don't give me none of that 'muh fascism' talk. The 30k Imperium explicitly wiped out human/alien polities where the two were living side by side. They also wiped out polities that didn't want to join. The Emperor never chastised or rebuked any of the primaries for this giving them his implicit permission to engage in this behavior if they wanted to. They did and they did.

His hands drip with the blood of the innocent and the earth beneath him cries out for justice. Even if his hand wasn't the one that swung the sword he merely had to speak and it would have halted all the same. Don't dress Big E or the Imperium to be something it isn't

If you want to talk about allegories then the Imperium is very obviously Britain, with 40k Imperium being Margaret Thatchers Britain. This is explicit I believe. It certainly isn't an allegory for *rome*.
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For what it's worth, even at its most imperialistic, Britain was still very much willing to form genuine alliances, form productive and not-clearly-one-sided agreements with local polities if they were just too useful and cooperative to have any reason to subjugate, and treated peer powers as genuine peers with according levels of respect, sincerity, and integrity.

So a xenos polity that is strong enough to make any notion of conquest really difficult at best, but is also very much willing to talk honestly and sincerely to you, as well as make agreements for establishing peace and potential future dialog/relations? And a xenos polity that doesn't subjugate humans (or is totally willing to let humans within its territory migrate to the Imperium/etc) or even threaten the Imperium? Well, at that point, why bother waging war against them when you've got plenty of real problems to worry about instead?

And that's all before you factor in the Emperor learning that the Lizardmen are actually extremely good mages with potent abilities at combating Chaos influence/Warp-based threats and using magic without Chaos influence risk. That kind of capability is just plain too tempting and appealing to the Emperor and his long-term plans to disregard.

Lizardmen HATE Chaos. They are fearless and utterly dedicated to their cause. And the biggest tenet of their cause is basically "Fuck Chaos". They are also immune to Chaos corruption. And they can even fight against Chaos in the Warp, on their own home turf, at least to some extent. The greatest enemies of the Imperium are also the greatest enemies of the Lizardmen--Chaos and Orks. The Lizardmen are really, really well-suited to fighting both, even on an attritional basis. And they don't view crushing third parties underfoot as acceptable or desirable without really good reason, because that runs contrary to their overwhelming goals of fighting Chaos and Orks.

From the Imperium's standpoint, the Lizardmen's stance towards potential hostilities with the Imperium can be summed up as "all the effort fighting the Imperium could instead be used to fight Chaos and Orks, so we'd really rather not fight the Imperium if we don't have to", which is the kind of "problem" whereby the Imperium would have a hard time not coming to the practical and easy solution of "don't fight the Lizardmen unless you have to, just point them towards Chaos/Orks and let them help take care of that problem for us".

After all, the enemy of your enemy may not necessarily be your friend, but if he really wants to fight your enemy WAY more than he ever wants to fight you, why not just let him?
 
Minor note, the biggest tenet of the lizardmen isn't actually 'destroy Chaos', it's to fulfil the Great Plan. It's just that Chaos has the greatest tendency and history of opposing the will of the Old Ones, so there's somewhat of a natural opposition there. Your stringency with purging Chaotic stuff will be entirely determined by you guys and how much of a problem the Ruinous Powers are making themselves for you.
 
Xantalos said:
Minor note, the biggest tenet of the lizardmen isn't actually 'destroy Chaos', it's to fulfil the Great Plan. It's just that Chaos has the greatest tendency and history of opposing the will of the Old Ones, so there's somewhat of a natural opposition there. Your stringency with purging Chaotic stuff will be entirely determined by you guys and how much of a problem the Ruinous Powers are making themselves for you.
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Your gut tightens as you look at the massive, corpulent toad on its glorified mobility scooter, floating in the air. Sacred paraphernalia of the Four is draped over you, tattooed on your flesh, painted on to your ship. The milling masses of the larger, thinner, soldiers, made of pectoral muscles and galvanized coffin nails watch over you armed with sticks and clubs.

Its eyes burn with a bright blue light as it peers at your very soul.

And then it stops and begins to move away?

"What?" You say.

"What?" Says the largest of the soldier caste.

"HE IS GOING TO BE A GREAT PAIN IN THE ASS FOR ALL THOSE WHO DEFY THE GREAT PLAN," says the chunky wizard in your brain directly. That incites a shrug from the soldier, who is in turned followed by the others, who follow the fat toad man.

"What?" You say again even as the alien will holding your ship in place launches you off.
 
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Character Concept - Hu'Nrabl - Voikirium
  • Sidestory
    • Hu'Nrabl

    The Lizardmen, by and large, have little reason to leave Lustria. Little, but not none. A Skink Priest of Azyr, before the End Times Hu'Nrabl was dispatched to the east to find and slay a mighty Goblin Shaman Crax the Clever who had managed to abscond with an artifact of the Old Ones, and reclaim the sacred ring. Leading an army and arrayed in might, the band of Shamans would journey across the Great Ocean until they arrived in the Warm-Blooded land of Bretonnia, arriving on the coast of that land which they called Aquitaine. A battle seemed likely as the hosts of the Duke arrived and mistook the servants of the Old Ones for the Beastmen, but this was belayed by the arrival of the Prophetess Anais.

    Bearing the Authority of the Lady, that which the Lizardmen and the Colleges of Magic would call the Winds of Ghyran, Ghur, and Azyr, she examined the Skink for taint even as the Skink in turn looked upon her with his gaze and found there was no darkness in her soul, nor impediment to the Great Plan woven into her future. Neither found and with no other cause for bloodshed at the time, Hu'Nrabl and Anais quickly made alliance for they shared a common foe. The Lizardmen accepted it quickly, for the Skink bore the authority of the Slaan. The Bretonnians accepted it well enough, for the Prophetess had the touch of the Lady about her.

    For a year the two would strive to hunt down the Goblin.

    Battle after battle, putting down the perverted Orcs Crax had bound to its will with the Sacred Ring, the two hosts would hound the Greenskins further afield even as they put down several of the seemingly perennial feuds that burned within that Dukedom, and in a particular spate of irony it would be one of the more unified lands of Bretonnia when the End Times did, finally, come. The Work of the Old Ones, clearly. But the Goblin proved deeply elusive, and the ability of the Hosts to find it was buoyed only by the tracking on the Sacred Ring. The time shared caused an odd melding between those two forces.

    The humans, of course, showed it the more. Symbols of the Old Ones, holy and purifying, were daubed on their clothes, their weapons, their armor. They used poison on their weapons, as the Lizardmen would, the lower soldiers at least--the Knights, of course, disdained such dishonorable things for themselves. They adapted techniques they saw the Lizardmen use in the fighting, for they were skillful indeed those warriors.

    But it was not solely humans who so adapted. The Lizardmen did so as well, if to a much lesser extent. The most obvious sign was in their gear, for as it was replaced when it was broken it was, by and large, replaced with its Bretonnian equivalents. They also however, gained something of a penchant for brandy, not as an intoxicant but for the taste, and the Saurus cavalry adapted a certain amount of the Bretonnian tendency for tournies and bright heraldry. Purely as a practical matter for training, you understand.

    Eventually, of course, they found the Goblin and killed him and reclaimed the Sacred Ring for the Lizardmen. And so Hu'Nrabl and the Lizardmen prepared to return to Lustria. Before they parted however, the Bretonnians gave a gift to their allies for their help: Hu'Nrabl was granted the Amulet of Fredemund, a thing of mystical potency; and in return the Bretonnian too were granted gifts.
    ---​
    The Amulet of Fredemund: A golden eagle touched by the Authority of the Lady. Aside from offering protection from all manner of ranged attacks, it also enhances the strength of spells cast within the Lore of Heavens. More esoterically, an...echo? Recording? Message?...Of the Lady's will has been bound into it, and speaks to the bearer, offering her advice and counsel. It has been tolerated, in spite of the possible risk, for it has not impeded the Great Plan nor seems likely or liable to at any point, and it improves the strength which Hu'Nrabl may use to cast the spells of the Lore of Heavens (also the Lore of Beasts and the Lore of Life if he had those, but he does not).

    Wise to the World: Hu'Nrabl has spent a relatively extended period of time in peaceful contact with Warm Bloods. While he is not an absolute expert, by far, in their behavior, predilections, actions and so on, he does have more understanding than the average Lizardman, whose interactions with Warm Blooded are much the more likely to come at the edge of a blade and shield than in peace. Further it has somewhat expanded his horizons by allowing him to consider, though not take himself, actions and strategies and tactics that would otherwise evade the Lizardmen.
    I find the idea of Lizardmen having to deal with other gods fascinating, and I really like Bretonnia, so it seemed natural. He probably would have made more sense at the beginning of the quest but eh.
     
  • Sidestory
    • Forgot about character concepts, might want to do one for my own...

    Partially related: What is the status of the (former?) lost lizardmen of the Dragon Isles? Were they rescued, or left behind?
     
    Dragonofelder said:
    Forgot about character concepts, might want to do one for my own...

    Partially related: What is the status of the (former?) lost lizardmen of the Dragon Isles? Were they rescued, or left behind?
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    I'd consider them to have gotten snagged for the purposes of this quest, probably after being on the verge of getting deleted by the various gribblies in Khuresh for a while during the End Times.
     
    slams down door

    @Xantalos! What can you say about the "Lost City of the Old Ones" in Khuresh? Is it an abandoned Lizardmen city or something else?
     
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