DocMatoi
Theoretical Lover of Girls
- Location
- within 2 hours of the White House
- Pronouns
- They/Them
im picturing a higher-pitched, more skink-voiced version of
Respect Your Elders v2 - Galactic Boogaloo [Warhammer Lizardmen Quest]
- Thread starter Xantalos
- Start date
- Sci-Fi Fantasy
-
- Tags
- warhammer warhammer 40k fantasy sci-fi science fantasy science-fantasy kitchen sink space fantasy isha kroak (warhammer fantasy) mazdamundi (warhammer fantasy) magic empire quest actions have consequences dinosaurs ia ia kroak fhtagn lasers lizardmen qm likes speculation and questions slann what could possibly go wrong?
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Going to add to the people saying this Quest's quality of writing is a huge draw. It's also really cool to see us come to grips with using modern weapons, I love that we've invented dinosaur dragoons.
Also damn, we are scary. The Empire is definitely going to think we're scary eldritch xenos when they find us.
...I'm also going to feel kind of bad when this terrifying, implacable and inhumanly efficient army led by eldritch monster-gods is unleashed on some human soldiers. That's gonna be rough.
In any case, once we squish Gardakka that'll clear up the last of the Ork resistance, then it's just sweep and clear operations to purge the last trace of Ork from Mochantia.
And then, probably also have to deal with the Ayacmanik. We should probably figure out what we want to do with them.
Also damn, we are scary. The Empire is definitely going to think we're scary eldritch xenos when they find us.
...I'm also going to feel kind of bad when this terrifying, implacable and inhumanly efficient army led by eldritch monster-gods is unleashed on some human soldiers. That's gonna be rough.
In any case, once we squish Gardakka that'll clear up the last of the Ork resistance, then it's just sweep and clear operations to purge the last trace of Ork from Mochantia.
And then, probably also have to deal with the Ayacmanik. We should probably figure out what we want to do with them.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I love seeing what the Lizardmen can be when not under constant siege by a bunch of different races that can just cheat at fucking everything.
Hell, I can't wait to see what becomes of the dwarves, asur, and humans of Mallus.
Hell, I can't wait to see what becomes of the dwarves, asur, and humans of Mallus.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
To be more clear, I think we can do exactly that, and intend to write a Turn 12 plan doing exactly that.
But I think we can do so with a lesser commitment of slannpower than we deployed during the previous turns.
This in turn frees up more slannpower for research.
I doubt she's really impressed, though the slann are clearly pretty strong psykers even by Eldar standards. After all, most of our weaponry is crude and inadequate in its performance compared to its Eldar counterparts; we're still using rifles that fire bullets which is just adorable and so on and so on.
Hrm.
The idea of just letting the remaining orks survive as a problem for the Ayacmanik is tempting on some level, but I don't like it. Orks are an exponentiating threat; if they manage to survive a period of conflict at all they will tend to grow stronger because of it. They cannot be used as a counterweight against another threat for very long because they're a counterweight that gets heavier.
Better to simply be rid of the orks, and then decide quickly what to do about the Ayacmanik... something I still think that @Xantalos should just hold a single straight-up approval vote on at some point, because the thread struggles to discuss the issue without salt and there will always, always be other issues at stake and I'd rather not have us making a whole bunch of decisions about what to do purely because they're bundled in a plan vote with our preferred Ayacmanik decision.
Yeah, one of the things I was definitely planning to budget some slannpower for was "be ready to teleport Kroq-Gar into position to duel and kill Gardakka." That and a few specialist things. But I think we've largely graduated beyond vitally needing the slann to hold our armies' hands with the parts involving nuking the enemy directly. Though we'll probably still want to deploy slann to wrangle Thunder Lizards and so on.
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- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Ayacmanik options:
Traumatize the Oversoul
Pros: Ayacmanik cease to be a threat to us, but we don't have to otherwise spend time and effort exterminating them.
Cons: Until it's complete the Ayacmanik will attack us anyway, which means we may still have to move to a war footing until the plan is finished, although I'm not sure how long that will take. Also, the Ayacmanik are still around, not a threat to us but still a factor worth considering.
Give Them Minds
Pros: Best case scenario, gain a massive boost to our labor and military efforts, not to mention whatever additional abilities they bring to the table. Perhaps the most humane option.
Cons: Uncertain what they would actually do with sentience; we may end up creating an even more dangerous enemy for ourselves; if it fails we may have to start over and try a different plan.
Control the Parasite
Pros: Adds their strength to ours without the bother of actually needing their consent. Keeps the Ayacmanik around but makes them useful.
Cons: As with Traumatize the Oversoul, provokes an all-put attack until complete. Debatably slavery?
Chains of Fog
Pros: Explicitly a big win button for Mochantia (although it's unclear how much we need one at this point). Adds Ayacmanik labor and military might, as well as making them intelligent and thus more useful. Maximum utility to us.
Cons: Definitely slavery. Actually may no longer be possible since we used our Seed of Fog? Requires us to uplift them first.
Burn Their Souls
Pros: Easy, clean way to exterminate some pests.
Cons: Triggers all-out war with the Ayacmanik. A weapon we have to use multiple times rather than a way to address the overarching problem. Not technically genocide, but feels sort of like it.
...
Overall, Give Them Minds has the most risk and the most reward imo. Potentially creates a new, more dangerous enemy (although we explicitly have safeguards in place against this), potentially creates an extremely valuable ally. Or maybe the Rangdan will do something we don't even expect and we'll have a new problem to deal with. It does, at least on the surface, have the least amount of fuss.
By contrast Chains of Fog is difficult, messy, and amoral (not that the Lizardmen care, but I sorta do), assuming it's still on the table I'm not sure it's worth it.
Traumatize the Oversoul, Control the Parasite, and Burn Their Souls all provoke all-out war although at least the first two end the conflict early rather than giving us a second round of warring and sweep-and-clear operations right after killing the Orks. However, any of these three seem like equally viable solutions, with Control the Parasite being the one that maximizes utility to us.
...
Ultimately I think it comes down to what role people think the Ayacmanik should play (in the Quest and in our Great Plan) going forward.
I think Give Them Minds could be really interesting in that it might give us a major ally, and one that is very alien, but could also create a whole bunch of issues we don't want to deal with. I can see why people would pass it over, but I mostly just want to know what the Rangdan would do with sentience.
Control the Parasite is the sweet spot between mess and utility, and I would probably support any plan that included that, plus it gives us a freaky hive mind servitor race that adds to our eldritch aesthetic. That said, if other people want to just get the Ayacmanik out of our way but leave them alive (Traumatize the Oversoul) or exterminate them entirely (Burn Their Souls) then I suppose that's acceptable.
EDIT: Actually I agree with @Simon_Jester that a separate approval vote would be useful in sorting this out.
Traumatize the Oversoul
Pros: Ayacmanik cease to be a threat to us, but we don't have to otherwise spend time and effort exterminating them.
Cons: Until it's complete the Ayacmanik will attack us anyway, which means we may still have to move to a war footing until the plan is finished, although I'm not sure how long that will take. Also, the Ayacmanik are still around, not a threat to us but still a factor worth considering.
Give Them Minds
Pros: Best case scenario, gain a massive boost to our labor and military efforts, not to mention whatever additional abilities they bring to the table. Perhaps the most humane option.
Cons: Uncertain what they would actually do with sentience; we may end up creating an even more dangerous enemy for ourselves; if it fails we may have to start over and try a different plan.
Control the Parasite
Pros: Adds their strength to ours without the bother of actually needing their consent. Keeps the Ayacmanik around but makes them useful.
Cons: As with Traumatize the Oversoul, provokes an all-put attack until complete. Debatably slavery?
Chains of Fog
Pros: Explicitly a big win button for Mochantia (although it's unclear how much we need one at this point). Adds Ayacmanik labor and military might, as well as making them intelligent and thus more useful. Maximum utility to us.
Cons: Definitely slavery. Actually may no longer be possible since we used our Seed of Fog? Requires us to uplift them first.
Burn Their Souls
Pros: Easy, clean way to exterminate some pests.
Cons: Triggers all-out war with the Ayacmanik. A weapon we have to use multiple times rather than a way to address the overarching problem. Not technically genocide, but feels sort of like it.
...
Overall, Give Them Minds has the most risk and the most reward imo. Potentially creates a new, more dangerous enemy (although we explicitly have safeguards in place against this), potentially creates an extremely valuable ally. Or maybe the Rangdan will do something we don't even expect and we'll have a new problem to deal with. It does, at least on the surface, have the least amount of fuss.
By contrast Chains of Fog is difficult, messy, and amoral (not that the Lizardmen care, but I sorta do), assuming it's still on the table I'm not sure it's worth it.
Traumatize the Oversoul, Control the Parasite, and Burn Their Souls all provoke all-out war although at least the first two end the conflict early rather than giving us a second round of warring and sweep-and-clear operations right after killing the Orks. However, any of these three seem like equally viable solutions, with Control the Parasite being the one that maximizes utility to us.
...
Ultimately I think it comes down to what role people think the Ayacmanik should play (in the Quest and in our Great Plan) going forward.
I think Give Them Minds could be really interesting in that it might give us a major ally, and one that is very alien, but could also create a whole bunch of issues we don't want to deal with. I can see why people would pass it over, but I mostly just want to know what the Rangdan would do with sentience.
Control the Parasite is the sweet spot between mess and utility, and I would probably support any plan that included that, plus it gives us a freaky hive mind servitor race that adds to our eldritch aesthetic. That said, if other people want to just get the Ayacmanik out of our way but leave them alive (Traumatize the Oversoul) or exterminate them entirely (Burn Their Souls) then I suppose that's acceptable.
EDIT: Actually I agree with @Simon_Jester that a separate approval vote would be useful in sorting this out.
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Xantalos
Turtle-Speed Writing
Aye, I'll probably do a decision interlude regarding this once the orks have been fully dealt with - it's as good a time as we're ever likely to get.
Speaking of good times, something I forgot in the last post.
You have acquired new territory along the north coast, 'above' Gardakka's current holdings. Your elder Saurus consider it likely that Gardakka will attempt to punch through this ground with at least some of his forces to regain coastal access next turn.
Using the numbers of the lizardmen legions at the bottom of Break The Tide - Conclusion, you may assign a garrison to these territories to provide preemptive resistance to such an effort.
[] Write-in garrison forces - if no garrison is wanted, vote to assign no forces.
I'll edit this in to the last post once I'm done work today, which might take ... a while.
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
Since there are indeed the Rangda; they have the potential to become an absolute horror show if not treated with care.
In canonical 40k no xenos species has ever driven humanity closer to extinction than the Rangda during the Rangdan-Imperial wars before or since; and they nearly broke the back of the great crusade with not even the Emperor's personal presence being enough to turn the tide until he unleashed the Void Dragon.
The Dark Angels were the largest ever force of Astartes until the Indomitus Crusade at more than a million space marines but were gutted to 150,000 during the wars, two legions were implied to have been wiped out more or less altogether, and none of the other legions who participated got out without getting absolutely mauled for it.
Making them allies is probably the best course of action.
In canonical 40k no xenos species has ever driven humanity closer to extinction than the Rangda during the Rangdan-Imperial wars before or since; and they nearly broke the back of the great crusade with not even the Emperor's personal presence being enough to turn the tide until he unleashed the Void Dragon.
The Dark Angels were the largest ever force of Astartes until the Indomitus Crusade at more than a million space marines but were gutted to 150,000 during the wars, two legions were implied to have been wiped out more or less altogether, and none of the other legions who participated got out without getting absolutely mauled for it.
Making them allies is probably the best course of action.
- Location
- Warsaw
I'm personally leaning towards control them. It gives us a massive labor force. It would make cleaning out the orks easier. Provides a lot of useful chaff. Most importantly it can be done in two sections. The first has no risk and can be completed in one turn. The same for the second on the latter. We can use remaining research to up tech at the same time.
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
Also I'm expecting that Nagash will one day pop up at the helm of a huge empire as a vast God of Death and be like "you thought the Skeleton wars were over, didn't you, fuck boys? You forgot one thing, Mister Bones' wild ride never ends."
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- Location
- colombia
Another reason is that emps and the imperium migth not be assured to play nice with us (this is warhammer,people being asshole to us for being xenos is likely)
So having the strength of fully developed ayamacnik (i will not call it rangdan because they have not developed into said culture and civilization yet)
On plus of our warp skills would make a great deterrent for agression
"Genociding/crushing/slaving us is too costly,but cooperating againsr chaos is benefitial and we would benefit of our mutual strength"
So either controlled or allied
From a purely pragmatic view is truth
But you gotta remember the narrative effects too
The more ruthless,the more "biological automstons lacking of moral or emotions" our species turn
Is not to say we would automaticllt turn into psycos
But it would definetly tip the balance a bit
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Actually, ignore my big long post and allow me to sum up the summing up.
Slaan 1: "I see great potential in them, if they are improved upon." Give Them Minds
Slaan 2: "There is too much risk. Better we should harness their strength, which is useful to us." Control the Parasite
Slaan 3: "Why not both? They would make more useful slaves." Chains of Fog
Slaan 4: "They are a nuisance and have no place in the Great Plan." Burn Their Souls
Slaan 5: "You are too harsh. They are a creation of our Eldar host. Preserve them, but make them no longer a threat." Traumatize the Oversoul
Slaan 1: "I see great potential in them, if they are improved upon." Give Them Minds
Slaan 2: "There is too much risk. Better we should harness their strength, which is useful to us." Control the Parasite
Slaan 3: "Why not both? They would make more useful slaves." Chains of Fog
Slaan 4: "They are a nuisance and have no place in the Great Plan." Burn Their Souls
Slaan 5: "You are too harsh. They are a creation of our Eldar host. Preserve them, but make them no longer a threat." Traumatize the Oversoul
Romka
Master of Stealth
- Location
- In a barrel
You forgot the option to remove their ability to infect sapients.
- Location
- Fawnland
I like option 5 too. Killing them all would be too cruel but I like don't them. I came here for space wizard dinosaur craziness not mind control bugs.
thePUNisher
Unbothered. Moisturized. Happy. In My Lane
- Location
- Brazil
Yeah, bugs are lame, let's just care em' straight and leave them around to act as meatshields if we ever get invaded, sorta like Catachan's fauna.
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I believe I've made my opinion fairly clear on what I'd like to do to the Aya, so I won't bother restating it.
That being said, great update Xan. I look forward to when we fully deal with the Orks and can start moving on to larger pastures.
That being said, great update Xan. I look forward to when we fully deal with the Orks and can start moving on to larger pastures.
- Location
- Not here. Maybe on SB.
Just "let them be"? No. Definitely no.
I just thought that we should discuss pros and cons for putting everything we have to finish orks right now in Turn 12 vs. more slow and careful approach to give us more time for researches and establishing new cities.
I'd like to have Metropolis Preservation Barriers before Aya will assaut our cities, for example. With Mag 3 Web that I hope we'll reach at the end of the next (12th) turn, it will be a big deal for protecting our cities.
And there many other things we can do to prepare, like talking with elf-lady.
I can give it a try, but only if we'll research the soul burning spell first. Just in case, you know.
As Xantalos already said multiple times, there's no chance that they'll become canon Rangdan. We butterflied that.
And they can't reach that level of strength without being canon Rangdan.
- Location
- Seattle, Washington
On the topic of garrison, I propose the following:
[X] Keep all lizardmen that are currently in the garrison
-[X] Additionally assign half the legion of Itza to the garrison
[X] Keep all lizardmen that are currently in the garrison
-[X] Additionally assign half the legion of Itza to the garrison
Xantalos
Turtle-Speed Writing
Funny enough, I don't think the lizardmen have all that much familiarity with Nagash at all. They probably noticed him charging his first edition 'rez nehekara' spell way back when, but he got ganked before the slann that were awake at the time had to make a decision on what to do about it. Then he was dead for most of the remaining time you had on Mallus, and while he did do some shenanigans in the End Times (I've been meaning to write up a post concerning what happened then at one point or another), the attention of the slann was at that point thoroughly focused on repelling the near-infinite armies of daemons, Beastmen, orks, dragon ogres, and skaven that were trying their luck. So funnily enough there's no real enmity between you and him beyond the usual amount from him being Nagash and the lizardmen not tolerating dark magic fuckery.
You can use them, but they'll disperse back to their own cities if you don't. It's a different area, you're occupying the top half of Gardakka's territory rather than the stuff you took from Skarstuf and Zoggrod.
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, we're in a pretty good position to decide to do what we want with the Rangdan; whatever they turned into by the period of the Emperor's Grand Crusade or whatever, they're right now a subsentient hive mind isolated on a single planet. Theoretically their sole surviving creator, Isendral, has given us a blank check to do with them as we see fit, although Eldar are flighty and we might face problems from her depending on what we choose for all I know- it's not impossible.
On the other hand, note that if we make them fully sapient allies we will almost inevitably be taking steps to make sure they never become as powerful as they were in canon, simply because then they'd probably be overwhelmingly more powerful than us.
First of all, we've collectively agreed, I think to NOT do anything with/about the Ayacmanik until the orks are dealt with, simply because otherwise the arguments over it would become a major distraction from making good plans to deal with the orks. By the time we're in a position to control the Ayacmanik, the orks are a non-issue, if we abide by that choice.
Second of all, the Ayacmanik will mop up feral ork populations anyway; they do that automatically because the hive mind knows the orks are hostile. It's actually been kind of convenient for us, in a way. We've been able to break the ork main armies and warbosses and let the Ayacmanik do a lot of the hard work of purging the territory occupied by the fungoid ecosystem the orks brought with them. The only real mop-up we'll need to do is on the northern continent, I suspect, and the Ayacmanik don't live there as far as we know.
That IS a major advantage and no mistake! There are some significant advantages to us of taking over the Ayacmanik/Rangdan as a mind-controlled labor force of animals.
Ah. I misunderstood you.
Well, the thing is, you see, we can still accomplish a lot of our goals next turn either way. My main point is that whereas in the last two turns we were devoting a LOT of our slannpower, arguably most of it, either to developing better weaponry or directly to blowing up orks, I think we can finish off the orks with only a fraction of our slannpower plus the legions from the Big Four cities. This frees us up to do a lot more slannpower stuff that isn't directly ork related.
Exactly which of that stuff we prioritize is a separate question, of course...
Slann Necromancer. That's some apocalypse material.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Hm.
The Legion of Itza is the one parked in the south, facing Urdgrob's disintegrated horde which is being rolled up by the Ayacmanik with most of the survivors joining Gardakka's force.
I could sort of see an overall strategy that looks something like "let the Legions of Xlanhuapec and Tlaxtlan continue to hold the line of the Kanyon, while we draw forces from the Legion of Itza in the south to reinforce and garrison the territory in the north."
Since Gardakka is likely to make the last big push in that general direction, trying to recapture his old territory.
Spartakrod
Judeo-Spartacist Bolshevik-Kabbalist
- Location
- Sanctum Arcanorum
- Pronouns
- Fae/Faer/Faers/Faerself
They do know Luthor Harkon though, having regarded Luthor as the second greatest threat to the great plan after Chaos, above even the Skaven or the Greenskins.