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What is the warp but poetry and symbolism move by will? I will said the eldar understand the warp better than the slaan because they feel it while the slaan try to understanding in a rational way(as much that can be rationalized, that it), and death means waaaaay more than just "it live and suddenly, it isn it" that is how thing move in the warp, all of it, is denizen and power move by state of moods and way of thinking, and as it all the lizardman have kinda sorta trouble understanding death beyond a mere cession of life or just "strong live, weak die" because they are animals with biological imprint of the old ones.
You've missed my point.

All the symbology and metaphor and poetry is additive, a layer of social meaning imparted by minds and souls; any meaning comes not from death itself both from those who have a relationship too it. What that relationship is is different for different groups. Lizardmen have individual minds and souls, this is part of their design, and can have beliefs about things. They are not, quite, meat robots.

They might be pushed to become that, if we wanted, but they aren't there yet and if they ever became such I suspect how our God's work would change drastically. If we didn't simply lose access to them.

But right now the Lizardmen can believe things, can have conceptions of the world that are not wholly and exclusively shaped their 'programming.' Constrained, yes. Not closed off though. That's why Sotek exists. And why direct worship of him isn't universal. Some choose to venerate Sotek, to be part of his cult.

And in designing a Death God we would be shaping the relationship the Lizardmen have with the concept, giving it definition and detail. Some will choose to worship the new god. But not all.

Whatever that exact relationship ends up being, there is no way to deny it's existence; it's a simple fact of our being alive.
 
@Xantalos Wait a second...Did we kick start the formation of Slannesh? We might have brought a component of said Chaos when we skipped dimensions, bringing the Fog Demon with us, which now that I am thinking about it raises all sorts of questions.

Was the Fog Demon built with an actual Component of Slannesh that was in existence for the past few turns, or was just empowered by a bit of said gods power on creation? The difference means that a piece of Slannesh was around earlier than the usual timeline and what sort of problems will that cause?

Follow up, how did the Fog Demon come with us during Deliverance? We hopped dimensions, and while the Warp is a multi-dimensional thing, said Deliverance whipped out nearly all of the Chaos it touched, except for just the Fog Demon.

Side question, what might have, if anything, came with us on our trip? Any of the gods, Elven or Human, send a piece of themselves with us? Is it possible the GEOM will end up with a bit of Sigmar helping him out?

Sorry about rambling, a bit tired and sleepy at the moment.
Nah, I can say for certain that you haven't kickstarted the formation of Slaanesh. That's something else entirely than the fog daemon, which managed to travel across the dimensions with you because it was connected to all the slann on a fundamental level. Their Communion takes place in a sort of shared mindspace where they have their longwinded discussions about whatever they're trying to decide at the time. The mind fog fed upon, engulfed, and sort of replaced this shared thought-space for the time it was afflicting the slann, which was why it was so hard to detect and get rid of - it was Chaos' way of turning the greatest strengths of the slann (great magical ability, unparalleled mental capacity, ability to coordinate with their brethren regardless of distance) against themselves, and it worked very well at that task for pretty much the entirety of the canon in WHFB. Of course, once the constant pressure was off and you guys weren't in a struggle to survive, you promptly turned your focus upon it and got rid of it quite judiciously. It was more of a negative force multiplier for you guys rather than an active weapon that was harming you.

Bit of a tangent there, but tldr, no the fog daemon didn't have any slaanesh essence in it or anything.

Nothing came with you from Mallus aside from yourselves.
 
Is it possible to kill her before she can born or maybe spilt her into two? She does have some positive attributes. Can we not separate part of it from her core gestating within warp? Like the way we recalibrated the fog daemon?
 
Is it possible to kill her before she can born or maybe spilt her into two? She does have some positive attributes. Can we not separate part of it from her core gestating within warp? Like the way we recalibrated the fog daemon?
Each god of chaos has positive qualities corrupted. That's why they're evil.
 
You can try (during the next arc, you're too far away right now). Results may vary.
Hmm... now I'm tempted to see if we can rebuild the Fog Demon and unleash it on Slaanesh as it's being born. Considering how Slaanesh is all about physical sensation it would be especially vulnerable to the concepts of "Slumber" and "Numb".
 
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I mean some people have talked about that, but personally it's not something I'm a fan of. The symbolism of fog... doesn't really lend itself well to protection. You get lost in fog, lose your way, ships crash in fog, it obscures. While that can be turned to protection (see Xlanhuapec and its mists) it's not exactly a strong sort of association. Better in my view to use those associations with something aimed outward; a god that focuses maybe on stealth or misdirecting enemies or on sabotage. Something where the concepts tied to the seed would really shine.

The problem with the point that 'Fog doesn't lend itself to protection' is that one of the Lizardmen's most famous temple-cities, Xlanhuapec, literally has an impenetrable wall of fog as it's primary defense. In the context of regular Lizardmen understanding and psyche, fog can absolutely be presented as an absolute in means of creating solid defense.
 
They are not, quite, meat robots.

This is true....well, kinda sort of true, if you have read novel like the buring shore or the temple of the serpent which it have lizardman POV, is intersting, they have feeling and individuality to some extent but they dont see aware of that, like in the novel a slaan actually is annoying with another one for what he see a sloppy job or dislike the reverence the other lizardman feel for him as mistake but never seen caught aware he is saying that, so they have awarness but not self awareness, if you get what im saying, which is why death represent so little for them.
 
The problem with the point that 'Fog doesn't lend itself to protection' is that one of the Lizardmen's most famous temple-cities, Xlanhuapec, literally has an impenetrable wall of fog as it's primary defense. In the context of regular Lizardmen understanding and psyche, fog can absolutely be presented as an absolute in means of creating solid defense.
Again, just because it can be connected does not mean it should be. My opinion is that emphatically we should not. You'll notice in the quote that you're responding to I specifically call out Xlanhuapex, I am well aware of the potential relations we could draw on, but critically the way in which those things relate are not ways that I find particularly useful in terms of 'protection.' Fog is not a solid barrier, it is a porous one. It confuses, waylays, misdirects, and obfuscates.

I don't necessarily oppose concept Protection and Fog on principle, but I do strongly oppose connecting them both with Death. Neither is, I think, a very useful concept to tie to it, but both together seem to me very much misguided and, again, frankly boring. Protection is, to start with, something that any afterlife is going to do by default because that's what an afterlife is for. So why try and double down on that? Death is such a potent concept that it feels like a massive under use to just go for such a passive concept and then add to that passivity by introducing Fog. All of my preferred combinations have the underlying aim of having something active and vital coming out of a Death god, something where our blanket afterlife isn't just something where the souls of our Saurus, Skinks, and Kroxigors go and sit for all eternity but where they become a new part of our culture and society.

Maybe they're reborn into new bodies at spawning pools. Or maybe they come back as construct of Obsinite. Or they can be summoned as spectral warriors. Or maybe, if the shit has truly gone down, they can be ritually incorporated en masse as an army. Something beyond just souls in a place.

This is true....well, kinda sort of true, if you have read novel like the buring shore or the temple of the serpent which it have lizardman POV, is intersting, they have feeling and individuality to some extent but they dont see aware of that, like in the novel a slaan actually is annoying with another one for what he see a sloppy job or dislike the reverence the other lizardman feel for him as mistake but never seen caught aware he is saying that, so they have awarness but not self awareness, if you get what im saying, which is why death represent so little for them.
Death is a fact of life. Lizardmen are alive. They can and do understand that things around them that they themselves, and things they value, can and will die.

It is not in precisely in the same way that you or I relate to Death, but that does not mean that Death means little to them. To us, Death is the cessation of the individual. The loss of connection, the terrible dark unknown into which we go alone and lonely. So we build stories of afterlives in which our loved ones also come, where the things we did in life have meaning and give reward even if they did not when our hearts beat, where pains cease and the safety is assured. We fill our afterlives with the things we perpetually lack in life.

Death is different for the Lizardmen. It is still the cessation of the individual. But it is also, sometimes, the necessary price paid for a higher purpose. A purpose which no Lizardmen ever doubts or questions. They have no need for surety or reward. No expectation or want of safety. Perhaps they love others as we do, or perhaps not, that is still too much up in the air at this point to say; for certain they at least value and form connections with things like mounts that last until death. So what stories are the Lizardmen likely to build their afterlives from? Purposes fulfilled. A chance at rebirth. New avenues of duty. Prices paid. Guardianship. Horizons uncharted. Depths unexplored.

The meanings are different, but the idea that Death is not meaningful to the Lizardmen is a complete nonstarter for me.
 
This random thread of nonsense popped into my head while reading through this thread and won't let go, so I'm going to try and explain it.

There's been a bit of talk about what the warp's influence on the material world is and how 'real' it is. Denying that the warp is real in any fashion is clearly nonsense, as that way leads to being eaten by a demon. That said, there are (at the most layman level) two layers to the warp.

First is the layer that is imminently present throughout the universe as some form of psychic field thing, which constitutes the vast majority (if not all) of the warp's direct interactions with the physical world. This layer is the most difficult to argue against the reality of, though its inconsistent nature indicates that it is almost certainly composed of a number of interacting effects, much like any physical material's properties are determined by the interaction of electromagnetic field with the strong force, weak force, curvature of space, higgs field, and so on. How exactly this plays out with the warp's clear interaction with something as nebulous as belief? No clue, and entirely up to Xantalos's interpretation, if he even decides to nail anything down.

Second is the layer that is normally distinct from the material world (outside whatever weirdness is involved with the eye of terror), which I'll capitalize for clarity. This level of the warp is only accessible through jargon exceptionally vague and divorced from any points of reference even for warp effects. This is to say, we have little more to go on for the nature of the Warp than that it is exceptionally psychoreactive, contains a 'soul' from almost all living creatures (with some pariahs as the only exception I know of), and is believed to be an additional 'layer' of reality.

I can't help but wonder if the Warp only exists insofar as complex numbers do. This is to say, it is an artifact of how the warp is rationalized by sentient creatures that is incredibly useful as a tool for understanding the perceived properties of the warp but which has no fully meaningful independent existence. If so, the Warp and its contents aren't real. There are no webway tunnels to wander, no mansions of plague to explore, and no bloodthirsty gods wearing unreasonably heavy armor.

Given how incredibly dependent the warp is on individual perception, I posit that not only the chaos gods, but also the other 'things' in the warp must by necessity interact with the saurus fundamentally differently because of their awareness of how this works. If true, this would mean practically that a saurus passing through the webway would not perceive it as such, though how they would perceive it would again be entirely dependent on how Xantalos decides the webway 'actually' works, if it even does work for a saurus. It would also mean that if a saurus were to be 'present' in the warp, and Khorne swung a sword at them, it would not cut them, though it might still wound them.

... Wow, that got long. Well, that is my mostly meaningless rant done with. Time to get back to doing productive things.
 
It is somewhat true in a metaphysical sense that perception determines reality when dealing with the Warp. One of the methods the slann use to teleport actually takes advantage of this, where they cause their senses to perceive as if they were in another location and then using the connection that forms to transport their bodies there.

The trouble with trying to apply the rule of perception determining experience against the creatures of the warp is that they can do it right back at you. Ever heard that Nietzsche quote about the abyss staring back at you if you look too deeply into it? Daemons apply it in a literal sense.
 
Oh, quick opinion check - any preference on hatching the Quango this turn versus later? It'd be a free action if you don't this turn, and if you did it this turn it'd hatch close to the end of the decade, plus it hangs around in the mid-upper atmosphere most of the time anyway so it won't really affect the rest of the turn at all. Just figured I'd double check before I actually wrote that part of the turn.
 
Right, fair enough. That was my default assumption since there's no real reason not to, just wanted to be certain.

In update news, I've completed 3 research actions so far, and am working on the Quango now, hence the inquiry. If I can keep this pace up, I may be able to pull off the 'periodically update as I write' thing I've been considering trying to pull off for a few years now. I assume that'd be in the thread's interest, given the responses I've had from previous informal polls?
 
Right, fair enough. That was my default assumption since there's no real reason not to, just wanted to be certain.

In update news, I've completed 3 research actions so far, and am working on the Quango now, hence the inquiry. If I can keep this pace up, I may be able to pull off the 'periodically update as I write' thing I've been considering trying to pull off for a few years now. I assume that'd be in the thread's interest, given the responses I've had from previous informal polls?
Interest? It's the most awesome thing I've heard since you said you've completed 3 research actions so far!

Might even be a self-sustaining cycle, if you respond to comments and motivations on the smaller updates as I do, as motivation.
 
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The egg of the Quango was one of a very few artifacts that the lizardmen knew for certain had been personally made by an Old One, and thus it was never taken out of the sealed temple-complex in Itza that it was entombed in. Even the slann could not order the Temple Guard who stood watch over the egg to remove it from its protection, and so they traveled to it, the protective guards of fifty-one slann merging together into a grand procession of obsinite, scales, and teeth that escorted the toad-mages to the holding temple.
You know, this kind of implies that an Old One gave the order to these Temple-Guard...or at least that an Old One personally engineered the assignment into their souls.

These Temple-Guard could be at the same age range as Kroq-Gar...maybe even older.

Edit: Oh fuck me.

@Xantalos
According to my rereading you changed it from 310/450 to 343/450, the reasoning being Mazdamundi's bonus.

Investigate the Quango - The egg of the mysterious creature known as the Quango is an enigma. It possesses a powerful aura and hails from the time when the Old Ones walked the earth still, so it must be immensely potent. But nothing is known about it, save for its name and age. Predictive visions of what could happen if it is induced to hatch have ranged from an ancient, withered corpse, dead of old age long before it was born, or fleeting glimpses of immense power and majesty. It would do well to determine what it is and how to avoid killing it in the process of getting it out of the egg. Effect: Figure out how to hatch the Quango without killing it. Difficulty: Very Hard - 310/450

Research completed to 343/450!

The Quango's egg is a massive specimen that had a stasis enchantment woven through its shell by an Old One long ago. Their exact reasoning for doing so is unclear, but likely related to the damage sustained to the Quango's soul, perhaps while it was being crafted. If the stasis is broken without something to deal with the immense amount of time the Quango has existed reasserting itself on its form, it will age to dust in a few hours at maximum. Multiple plans have been drawn up in an attempt to circumvent this, and while none of them are wholly viable, they provide a good well of data to draw on in the future.

Whatever the Quango is, its soul exudes cold, and it has an immense luminosity to its spirit, comparable only to the Thunder Lizards.

Oh, something I forgot to codify earlier, Mazdamundi's thing that makes research projects he's leading other slann on get +10% of the total is now on the front page. Progress was initially at 310/450 until I remembered it.

To make things easier, if this is the case? If you can confirm without breaching OOC that putting more Slann into Delving into the Crystal Caverns can potentially help, just put the 33 extra 5th Gens there. If it can NOT help, put them on Consulting two 3rd gen, three 4th gen, and a 5th Gen on Enigmas.
 
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Edit: Oh fuck me.

@Xantalos
According to my rereading you changed it from 310/450 to 343/450, the reasoning being Mazdamundi's bonus.

To make things easier, if this is the case? If you can confirm without breaching OOC that putting more Slann into Delving into the Crystal Caverns can potentially help, just put the 33 extra 5th Gens there. If it can NOT help, put them on Researching the Great Plan.
WhOOPs that's partially on me for not catching that as well - I probably forgot to put the updated total in the actual turn post. Lemme do a quick overview of what projects you could potentially throw those slann onto...

Yeah, Great Plan researching is about the most productive thing you could throw them on, unless you decide to consult the relic priests or go looking around in the Vaults. My personal preference is for the Plan, so unless thread opinion is strongly for either of the latter two, I'll just go with that.
 
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Oh, quick opinion check - any preference on hatching the Quango this turn versus later? It'd be a free action if you don't this turn, and if you did it this turn it'd hatch close to the end of the decade, plus it hangs around in the mid-upper atmosphere most of the time anyway so it won't really affect the rest of the turn at all. Just figured I'd double check before I actually wrote that part of the turn.
Is the Quango a Rayquaza?
 
Sweet, thank you, but I actually edited it to throwing them at some Relic Priests for Enigmas, as you can see.
Ah, that works too. Hmm. If you're of even minds about it, I may as well just make it an impromptu vote.

Is the Quango a Rayquaza?
It's kind of like a giant sky eel snake thing with coruscating membrane fin things. So sorta.

----

IMPROMPTU THREAD POLL:

Due to an accidental mixup that's pretty much entirely my fault (forgetting to put the updated research total for the Quango in the newest turn post) the winning plan has 33 extra slann to assign. There's 2 things that would yield appreciable results this turn, or at least these are the two I'm gonna choose between. Vote for one, if you please:

[] Assign leftover slann to consulting Relic Priests on Enigmas
[] Assign leftover slann to studying the Great Plan

I'm not gonna be writing either of those sections for a while, so I won't be calling this for a few days at least.
 
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