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Respect Your Elders v2 - Galactic Boogaloo [Warhammer Lizardmen Quest]

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Xantalos said:
Fair enough - most likely by the time you get around to seeing the Guard my view on them will have changed somewhat anyhow, so the info's valuable even if I don't use it.
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Hey, if I can get an excuse to be a shitty rip-off of a 40k Lore channel for five minutes, I'm happy. If I somehow help you, I'm even happier.
 
SideVermin13 said:
I wonder how a Saurus would fare against a Space Marine (Before spellforge and after)
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Depends on what the equipment disparity is. If you take a naked saurus and a naked astartes, both newly made/freshly inducted, saurus wins. If the saurus gets what you have right now (standard bronze armor, obsinite weapon and shield) and the astartes gets power armor, a bolter, and a melee weapon, astartes stomps. Things change as both of them up their veterancy and equipment, but I'll save that for when we get to it.
 
Xantalos said:
Depends on what the equipment disparity is. If you take a naked saurus and a naked astartes, both newly made/freshly inducted, saurus wins. If the saurus gets what you have right now (standard bronze armor, obsinite weapon and shield) and the astartes gets power armor, a bolter, and a melee weapon, astartes stomps. Things change as both of them up their veterancy and equipment, but I'll save that for when we get to it.
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Guns & power armour are a hell of a stat bonus.
 
Mister Phantom said:
Also, Marines are so far above Joe Average that the only reason Saurus can face them is because Big E didn't have as much time as the Old Ones did.
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Again, no they're not. Astartes are just above average compared to all the other shit in the Galaxy. Yeah they're way better than a normal human, but normal humans are shit tier combatants in 40k.

Compared to Nature's Perfect Omnivores in the Nids, the pinnacle of Purely Material Technology in the Necrons, the Eldar who even the Youngest warrior has millenia of experience in killing, and the god damned Daemons who you can't even properly kill in the Material World, Astartes are pretty mediocre.
 
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KnightofTempest said:
Again, no they're not. Astartes are just above average compared to all the other shit in the Galaxy. Yeah they're way better than a normal human, but normal humans are shit tier combatants in 40k.

Compared to Nature's Perfect Omnivores in the Nids, the pinnacle of Purely Material Technology in the Necrons, the Eldar who even the Youngest warrior has millenia of experience in killing, and the god damned Daemons who you can't even properly kill in the Material World, Astartes are pretty mediocre.
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The fact that they can regularly score wins over those things does them credit.
 
Mister Phantom said:
The fact that they can regularly score wins over those things does them credit.
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Their victories over the Eldar don't matter cause they're never really why the Eldar are there in the first place, their victories over the Tyranids usually result in both sides being wiped out in the process, and their victories over the Necrons involve them leaving the battlefield alive to call in an exterminatus.

Those aren't victories, they're at best draws.
 
KnightofTempest said:
Their victories over the Eldar don't matter cause they're never really why the Eldar are there in the first place, their victories over the Tyranids usually result in both sides being wiped out in the process, and their victories over the Necrons involve them leaving the battlefield alive to call in an exterminatus.

Those aren't victories, they're at best draws.
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My dude
Source?
 
Kaboomatic said:
My dude
Source?
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Lots of novels. Snippets mentioned in Rogue Trader and Dark Heresy.

But honestly? The stat blocks for most things compared to the Average Marine Grunt bear out my assessment. Reanimation Protocols much? As far as I'm aware, Astartes don't get up again after you kill them. . .

As to the Eldar, because of the way they operate and can pop in and out of the webway at will, if you're fighting them, it's because they want you to fight them and not say, be out looking for what their actual objective on the planet is. 9 times out of 10 there's a farseer somewhere looking for a relic or something elsewhere while you're fighting Wraithguards or whatever
 
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KnightofTempest said:
Their victories over the Eldar don't matter cause they're never really why the Eldar are there in the first place, their victories over the Tyranids usually result in both sides being wiped out in the process, and their victories over the Necrons involve them leaving the battlefield alive to call in an exterminatus.

Those aren't victories, they're at best draws.
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Yeah, that's why the Salamanders managed to invade Commoragh and slaughter a shit ton of Dark Eldar nobility paving the way for Vect's rise to power. IF you are comparing Space Marines to anything worse than an Aspect Warrior- they should handedly be winning it. Obviously a Space Marine isn't the most dangerous individual unit on the battlefield but calling them small potatoes over shit like Guardians is a bad joke.
 
Karugus said:
Yeah, that's why the Salamanders managed to invade Commoragh and slaughter a shit ton of Dark Eldar nobility paving the way for Vect's rise to power. IF you are comparing Space Marines to anything worse than an Aspect Warrior- they should handedly be winning it. Obviously a Space Marine isn't the most dangerous individual unit on the battlefield but calling them small potatoes over shit like Guardians is a bad joke.
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Dark Eldar do not equal Eldar.

Also when did this happen?
 
EVA-Saiyajin said:
Aw man, I was just starting to get used to the qwaken.
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The qwacken will return once I try my hand at making a horrible hand drawing of his majesty in a few months.

Regarding Astartes strength, yeah a lot of stuff in 40k matches them in raw 'stats' easily, and they do a lot of dying. That's alright though, it's their job. And it'd actually be a bad thing if they were unassailable curbstompers of everything for reasons unrelated to real-world concerns. They need to have a hard time.
 
Xantalos said:
The qwacken will return once I try my hand at making a horrible hand drawing of his majesty in a few months.

Regarding Astartes strength, yeah a lot of stuff in 40k matches them in raw 'stats' easily, and they do a lot of dying. That's alright though, it's their job. And it'd actually be a bad thing if they were unassailable curbstompers of everything for reasons unrelated to real-world concerns. They need to have a hard time.
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Marines should hit a sweet spot where they slaughter most enemies, trade reasonably with some, and die in droves against others. I've theorized before that the major reason the Imperium was rapidly collapsing in 40k (as opposed to the general collapse they'd been doing) was the proliferation of enemies that needed Space Marines to deal, and that could threaten Space Marines.

The Imperial Guard was focused on mass produced soldiers and attritional warfare, which meant that enemies that needed a more percise concentration of force needed Marines to be dealt with effectively. Tyranids need headcapping of their Syanpse units, Necrons need their transportation to the battlefield destroyed, Chaos Space Marines need elites to fight them effectively, and the biggest Orks need their leaders killed. By the 40k era, all these enemies were showing up in massive numbers at the same time, and the institutions designed to prevent another Vandire or Horus stopped the Imperium from adapting.
 
Karugus said:
Yeah, that's why the Salamanders managed to invade Commoragh and slaughter a shit ton of Dark Eldar nobility paving the way for Vect's rise to power. IF you are comparing Space Marines to anything worse than an Aspect Warrior- they should handedly be winning it. Obviously a Space Marine isn't the most dangerous individual unit on the battlefield but calling them small potatoes over shit like Guardians is a bad joke.
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Thing is that Warhammer 40K is a setting notorious for inconsistent writing where in one story Space Marines would be a match for a small army of guardsman to being able to be killed by a handful of prepared normal soldiers.
 
Red Bovine said:
Thing is that Warhammer 40K is a setting notorious for inconsistent writing where in one story Space Marines would be a match for a small army of guardsman to being able to be killed by a handful of prepared normal soldiers.
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Space Marines exist. Obviously Warhammer 40k is terribly inconsistent but basic logic dictates if 'a platoon of Guardsmen can reasonably defeat a Space Marine' were true there wouldn't be any Space Marines. Not when you acknowledge that the army sizes in 40k are horrifically too small for the most part. What with half a dozen regiments of ~10,000 men fighting over entire planets.

If Space Marines are a thing, has the setting consider them an important thing, and have massive amounts of mythos and reverence tied into their existence.... signs suggest they're capable at their jobs- no matter what any specific Black Library author says. I don't get why that's such a hard concept for people to admit.
 
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I tend to just multiply numbers by at least 10x to get the fannon info for number of guardsmen versus space marines.

Essentially wall of lasers can eventually stop a astartes...if they concentrate firepower on them.

Ceramite is bullshit against heat based weaponry, as well as lasers.
 
Karugus said:
Space Marines exist. Obviously Warhammer 40k is terribly inconsistent but basic logic dictates if 'a platoon of Guardsmen can reasonably defeat a Space Marine' were true there wouldn't be any Space Marines. Not when you acknowledge that the army sizes in 40k are horrifically too small for the most part. What with half a dozen regiments of ~10,000 men fighting over entire planets.

If Space Marines are a thing, has the setting consider them an important thing, and have massive amounts of mythos and reverence tied into their existence.... signs suggest they're capable at their jobs- no matter what any specific Black Library author says. I don't get why that's such a hard concept for people to admit.
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No one is saying that they aren't a big deal. It's just that compared to some of the other crazy shit in the galaxy they aren't actually that crazy. Though this is due to them being compared to the likes like the Eldar and Orks who were created by one of the most advanced psyker races to ever live that have had literally tens of millions of years to advance, Tyranids who are an intergalactic race of space locusts that have likely eaten at least one galaxy whole then taking the DNA of everything they've eaten and the Necron's who are perhaps the most advanced race when it comes to material science that managed to shatter beings that might as well be literal physical gods of the materium that IIRC should they all awaken would match the Imperium's men in numbers.

So yes while they are among the best in the galaxy the things they go up against are absolutely nuts. That said they actually have a chance against the worst things in the galaxy while normal guardsman would likely be screwed in any position an Astartes finds themselves in.
 
Red Bovine said:
No one is saying that they aren't a big deal. It's just that compared to some of the other crazy shit in the galaxy they aren't actually that crazy. Though this is due to them being compared to the likes like the Eldar and Orks who were created by one of the most advanced psyker races to ever live that have had literally tens of millions of years to advance, Tyranids who are an intergalactic race of space locusts that have likely eaten at least one galaxy whole then taking the DNA of everything they've eaten and the Necron's who are perhaps the most advanced race when it comes to material science that managed to shatter beings that might as well be literal physical gods of the materium that IIRC should they all awaken would match the Imperium's men in numbers.

So yes while they are among the best in the galaxy the things they go up against are absolutely nuts. That said they actually have a chance against the worst things in the galaxy while normal guardsman would likely be screwed in any position an Astartes finds themselves in.
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No shit. Like seriously. My argument was never that they were the scariest thing around, I was admonishing someone for not recognizing the entire role of Space Marines is that they're the ultimately all too human people who face those scary things on their turf. Narratively and in actuality. Necrons are scary- didn't stop the Astral Knights from fucking up a World Engine at immense cost to themselves. Tyranids are scary- didn't stop the Ultramarines' Tyrannic War Veterans from doing boarding actions to hunt Norn Queens. Orks are scary- that's why you almost always see Space Marines deployed to headhunt their leaders.
 
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