Prince Aladdin Quest (Disney Villains *Almost* Victorious)

Turning them into a Protectorate removes Ababwan legal control over their land and settlements. Yeah, we can theoretically march in and demand access any time we want 'cause Protectorate, but we have to justify it to whatever leadership the Satrapy comes up with, and being too insistent/onerous in our demands will sour goodwill and foment rebellious sentiment.

That's the kind of thing I was referring to when I earlier said "Legal is a different can of worms".

If we want Mediterranean access without having to play diplomatic/legal games every single time, the Stewardship option demands we have a coastal Embassy town. Even if the Satrapy is friendly and technically subordinate.
What?

You are reading way way too much into this.

We took over the east and west satraps diplomatically and have had no issues whatsoever. Just increased territory and new actions. Nothing like you're describing has ever come up.

The only reason the north is different is because we used the martial choice to take them and remove their corrupt leaders. We just never took the action to replace those leaders and have had a ongoing malus.

Fresh faces gets rid of the malus.

You are thinking things are far more complicated than they actually are.
 
What?

You are reading way way too much into this.

We took over the east and west satraps diplomatically and have had no issues whatsoever. Just increased territory and new actions. Nothing like you're describing has ever come up.

The only reason the north is different is because we used the martial choice to take them and remove their corrupt leaders. We just never took the action to replace those leaders and have had a ongoing malus.

Fresh faces gets rid of the malus.

You are thinking things are far more complicated than they actually are.
If Tempest tells me the same, then I'll change it. Otherwise, it stays.
 
If Tempest tells me the same, then I'll change it. Otherwise, it stays.
Sure.

Sorry, I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything.

I'm just picturing a scene where we meet with our hand picked Ababwan administrators we are sending to the north to be in charge of it, and demanding that they allow us to build a embassy in a coastal town.

I'm imagining them looking at each other like we're crazy. And them going "Okay... You know you control the whole country right? That you picked us to be in charge and we serve you? Have your memory problems come back?"
 
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Sure.

Sorry, I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything.

I'm just picturing a scene where we meet with our hand picked Ababwan administrators we are sending to the north to be in charge of it, and demanding that they allow us to build a embassy in a coastal town.

I'm imagining them looking at each other like we're crazy. And them going "Okay... You know you control the whole country right? That you picked us to be in charge and we serve you? Have your memory problems come back?"
Then we can all have a good chuckle at my expense, and Tempest can insert a short blurb of Aladdin (or whoever) asking them "That's not how it works?" :D
 
Edit: That's the reason why the military DC is so low and there's no cost. It's the system that's effectively in place right now as a stopgap measure.
The other obvious reason it would be cheap and easy is that it's more or less the method countless empires throughout history have used... and they used it because it's cheap and easy. Your army takes a territory, you pull aside some of the military commanders who took it over for you, you make them the new governors and let them sort out the details. It doesn't require an expensive paid civil service, nor is it an immediate drain on the (often limited) pool of literate manpower capable of doing complex administrative work. There's a fair amount of inefficiency because the soldiers themselves aren't that kind of administrator and because they're understandably going to want to take a cut of tax revenues to support themselves and their families in good style, but on a pragmatic level, it works and it's been used in many places for many, many centuries.

Aladdin's a nice guy, his commanders are nice guys, and the Ababwan army in general seems to consist largely of pretty nice guys, so we'll be looking at something towards the kinder, gentler end of the spectrum of possibilities for how this turns out, of course.
 
Aladdin's a nice guy, his commanders are nice guys, and the Ababwan army in general seems to consist largely of pretty nice guys, so we'll be looking at something towards the kinder, gentler end of the spectrum of possibilities for how this turns out, of course.
Quite correct.

But it's also cheap because it takes these people out of the military permanently.

It turns a administrative problem into a overall military one. We would probably return to having the "too small of a military" malus we had for a while.

So it's cheap and would work but just makes another problem. And a stretched military is bad right before two potential wars.
 
Quite correct.

But it's also cheap because it takes these people out of the military permanently.

It turns a administrative problem into a overall military one. We would probably return to having the "too small of a military" malus we had for a while.

So it's cheap and would work but just makes another problem. And a stretched military is bad right before two potential wars.
We can double up on recruitment next turn, assuming we complete the expansion action.
 
I'm talking about if we take the Martial action to administrator the north not the Stewardship one.

The Stewardship one completely solves the problem without creating another issue.
The Stewardship option absolutely has other issues of its own. That's why I included links to relevant discussion posts in my vote post.

From a big picture standpoint, it's just establishing what kind of dominance you want over the Satrapy. None of them are without serious flaws, because surprise surprise - major government restructuring is never a simple task.
 
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The Stewardship option absolutely has other issues of its own.
I really think all that is outside the scope of this quest but... okay.

But why would we need to do a double action on recruitment next turn if the Stewardship action goes through? That only makes some kind of sense if we took the Martial action.

I don't understand what you were trying to say there.
 
I really think all that is outside the scope of this quest but... okay.

But why would we need to do a double action on recruitment next turn if the Stewardship action goes through? That only makes some kind of sense if we took the Martial action.

I don't understand what you were trying to say there.
Given all the hidden mechanisms in this quest, because there are many different factions jockeying for power, I think it's not.

Because we're going to war soon, and we have an obligation to protect our Protectorates, one of which is (if the current leading plan wins) going to have no forces and must rebuild their own from scratch because we're pulling all of our people out. Which is the point of "we have no troop malus anymore" that people are touting as a benefit of the Stewardship option.

So we're going to take losses, probably serious ones because Lemuria is demon/old one country, and we need enough bodies to deal with that and still fulfill our obligations.
 
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one of which is (if the current leading plan wins) going to have no forces and must rebuild their own from scratch because we're pulling all of our people out.
That's... that's a absolutely huge misunderstanding of what that does.

It just means that the military occupation which is currently handling the governance of the north can go back to being regular military units and we lose the 1000 gold a turn malus for not having proper leadership there.

The military is still there. Their military IS our military. They just wouldn't have to do that administration stuff anymore.

Our military is in all the areas we control at all times.

We got the "military stretched too thin" malus when we expanded into the west without having expanded the military to defend our new territory.

We already expanded it for the north. The issue there is the military is running things instead of being just military units.
 
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Quite correct.

But it's also cheap because it takes these people out of the military permanently.

It turns a administrative problem into a overall military one. We would probably return to having the "too small of a military" malus we had for a while.

So it's cheap and would work but just makes another problem. And a stretched military is bad right before two potential wars.
I'm not saying it's a good idea, just that it's easy to do. This is why so many societies historically that could win wars but lacked the state capacity to build up a complicated administrative bureaucracy would do things like this- it was, so to speak, the low-cost low-DC option, and the problems it created were ones they knew how to solve in the long run.

Again, I'm not saying it's the optimal strategy for us, just that its status as a cheap/easy option (but one that causes other complications) is well grounded in history.
 
If Tempest tells me the same, then I'll change it. Otherwise, it stays.
BigKing is correct, it's not as complex as you've been reading into it. As well as the point about the military option effectively turning the military governors into, well, normal governors. It means that you lose a decent chunk of your experienced office cadre, which is the major bottleneck you'd have in regards to being stretched too thin. The Satrapies have recovered enough by this point that they are able to produce their own standing militia forces, especially with Aladdin's forces acting as training cadres in each city. In-quest it's been a year since the Northern Satrapies were pacified and the Bandit Army driven out.

In regards to having more than one hero on an action... I'll allow them to stack. I honestly hadn't considered the possibility of having more heroes than applicable actions per turn.
 
BigKing is correct, it's not as complex as you've been reading into it. As well as the point about the military option effectively turning the military governors into, well, normal governors. It means that you lose a decent chunk of your experienced office cadre, which is the major bottleneck you'd have in regards to being stretched too thin. The Satrapies have recovered enough by this point that they are able to produce their own standing militia forces, especially with Aladdin's forces acting as training cadres in each city. In-quest it's been a year since the Northern Satrapies were pacified and the Bandit Army driven out.

In regards to having more than one hero on an action... I'll allow them to stack. I honestly hadn't considered the possibility of having more heroes than applicable actions per turn.
Alright, I'll remove the write-in.

That's... that's a absolutely huge misunderstanding of what that does.

It just means that the military occupation which is currently handling the governance of the north can go back to being regular military units and we lose the 1000 gold a turn malus for not having proper leadership there.

The military is still there. Their military IS our military. They just wouldn't have to do that administration stuff anymore.

Our military is in all the areas we control at all times.

We got the "military stretched too thin" malus when we expanded into the west without having expanded the military to defend our new territory.

We already expanded it for the north. The issue there is the military is running things instead of being just military units.
Okay, apparently either I haven't been focusing enough on my core points or you're...doing something odd. You're no longer discussing what is needed to properly win a war, so we're not talking about anything even remotely the same, because anybody reading this thread knows that my big concern is Lemuria.

Having declined to continue discussing the other points I brought up, the only thing you're arguing with me over is whether or not we do a double recruitment action, and to support it you're presenting a case against based on what is and is not needed to manage our obligations in peacetime.

But frankly I'm not worked up about we need in peacetime except in a "this would be nice to have" way, because QM, the other readers, our nation, and the Satrapies are generally good enough to manage that on their own without needing any extraordinary measures like double recruitment.

I'm worked up about what we need to fight a war, potentially on two fronts because the EITC has been taking Lemurian money and their operating methods show several convergence points with Lemurian interests, said Lemurians being demon worshipping assholes (technically old ones (probably) but tomato tomato).

This isn't the bandit clearing we've been doing. This is a fight against a peer opponent (at best), and Ababwa doesn't have experience in that, which means they're probably going to get fucked hard in the first round. So I want double recruitment so the near-inevitable fuckups that come with a lack of institutional knowledge don't stop us in our tracks.

For the record, I believe that in order to actually make the sort-of self-governing Stewardship option anything except a a waste of time and money, all the Protectorates need to have their own military and police force to enforce their own government in absence of Ababwan directorates. Any argument I make about their needs is towards that end.
 
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Okay, apparently either I haven't been focusing enough on my core points or you're...doing something odd.
K. I'll try and explain.

I asked why you wanted double recruitment when we are doing the Stewardship action for the north.

One of your reasons was
one of which is (if the current leading plan wins) going to have no forces and must rebuild their own from scratch because we're pulling all of our people out.
This is not at all what setting up new governance in the north does, so I then tried to explain that.

I'm sorry if this caused any confusion.
 
K. I'll try and explain.

I asked why you wanted double recruitment when we are doing the Stewardship action for the north.

One of your reasons was

This is not at all what setting up new governance in the north does, so I then tried to explain that.

I'm sorry if this caused any confusion.
In the future, if I'm doing a multi-point explanation and you only take issue with one of them, I'd appreciate a "I have no issue with the rest" or something stuck in there somewhere. My ability to interpret social crap is hindered after a lifetime of "Do I actually need to read between the lines, or is this guy/gal just straight lying to me?"

I fucking hate the Internet sometimes. Comms problems like this (assuming same setting of people actually trying to work with each other) don't happen nearly so often in meatspace.
 
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In the future, if I'm doing a multi-point explanation and you only take issue with one of them, I'd appreciate a "I have no issue with the rest" or something stuck in there somewhere.
Umm... sorry?

The only other relevant points I thought you raised in that post were...

Because we're going to war soon,

So we're going to take losses, probably serious ones because Lemuria is demon/old one country, and we need enough bodies to deal with that and still fulfill our obligations.
Which I just combined into "potential future war"

I really didn't see a point in arguing about that since... yeah... potential future war. Absolutely a thing.

I don't particularly think a double recruitment is the best call but I certainly didn't feel strongly enough about that to argue a whole turn before it becomes relevant.

Who knows what could happen this turn. Maybe double recruitment is going to be the right call. It's too early to know.
 
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