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Merkels Operation Walküre

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Gnarker said:
Will that help? I don't think Japan will have any bases beyond the South-East Pacific, post war. With Panama certainly closed to any german warships, and assuming Britain keeps Suez closed likewise (if there's not any huge upset like the US backstabbing Britain after a british surrender), I don't think that'll make much of a difference when any german expedition would have to go around one of the capes, not without either another allied country or something like a german antarctic colony to serve as stopover.
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That will depend on how and how fast the War ends. If Germany, Japan and the minor Axis nations weather the storm and emerge halfway intact, Panama might be closed, but I cannot see a peace under these circumstances that closes Suez for Axis Naval forces. While hitting the US is doable for Germany and probably Japan to a certain degree, these are major operations due to distance. Hitting Britain with a broadside until they agree to open Suez for Germany and her allies is another thing.

If the Wallies go all out, maybe even going NBC and Germany and Japan weather that and emerge halfway intact from such an endgame, both channels will be open for their warships. I cannot see a peace where the Axis still stands and agrees to closed channels after both sides went NBC. Especially if the "New Axis" is forced to retaliate after being hit with something from the NBC package. Our peaceniks might have blinders the size of Australia on, but after the Wallies do something like Atomics, chemicals or biological, that will impact and change popular outlook. The US might not get too much of the response due to distance, but in Britain they will have to go low on the totem pole to find someone to surrender. Germany does not only have the instant sunshine in Büchel, but is sitting on a "fuckton" of chemical weapons with the ability to produce much more of it. And I am sure Unit731 would also help the New Axis for a reduction or lift of all punishments, should the Wallies go the route of NBC.

Both channels closed for New Axis warships I can only see if it comes to a fotofinish, where Germany and Japan emerge burned, scarred but still somewhat upright, pushed back but saved by the Allies running out of soldiers to sacrifice.
 
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Does the German peace movement still have anything left to stand on? IIRC, future Germans had a rude awakening to how war used to be fought, when the Anglo-Americans literally plowed through their air defenses with sheer weight of blood and metal, and dropped bombs on Munster and Berlin. Both killed over 5000 people, and the last actually had Merkel snap. In addition to losing thousands of planes, the Anglo-Americans suffered the loss of all their air defense and combat capabilities in Britain destroyed by the German retaliation, plus the entire Royal Navy in British territorial waters.

Biggest irony of all is that the second air raid that got through killed plenty of Turks and Eastern Europeans living in Germany, and who up until then had second thoughts about supporting Germany that is making compromises with the conservative, landed elites (Junkers) and the Wehrmacht or the Waffen-SS (i.e. forming the latter up into penal battalions instead of throwing them in jail to rot). IIRC, plenty of future Turks and Balkan Slavic immigrants signed up with the Wehrmacht to get some payback.
 
The situation of the peaceniks is indeed problematic to this point. They are somehow discredited and are not much heard. But they aren't away. But a minor voice, which simply isn't heard any more so loudly.

Yes, many Turks, Africans and Balkan Slavs joined the German armed forces. Especially those forces from Berlin and Münster are eager to kick a Brit's arse. Still, they were used at the Eastern front at first.
 
JaeneraTargaryen said:
Does the German peace movement still have anything left to stand on? IIRC, future Germans had a rude awakening to how war used to be fought, when the Anglo-Americans literally plowed through their air defenses with sheer weight of blood and metal, and dropped bombs on Munster and Berlin. Both killed over 5000 people, and the last actually had Merkel snap. In addition to losing thousands of planes, the Anglo-Americans suffered the loss of all their air defense and combat capabilities in Britain destroyed by the German retaliation, plus the entire Royal Navy in British territorial waters.
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The hard core of the German peace movement you have to firebomb repeatedly to wake them up to reality, but that is not what I meant per se. What happened to Münster or Berlin woke up most of the UT-population to the fact that there is no other option than to fight. But at the moment it is strictly to get out of the war and curb most ideas/claims done through an attacking war of Germany´s allies, see japan. That is currently the political baseline, which is peace and staying halfway intact, even if it costs much. The New Axis powers want out, but without being crippled or nuked.
Would saner heads among the Wallies prevail, they could get many, maybe most of their aims within hours of opening communication. Now what if the Wallies escalate the war, maybe pull out the NBC option? Unlike OTL the Axis is in a position they could decide to retaliate without making it more worse for themselves. How much can the general pro-peace faction in UT-Germany take, until they decide the New Axis has to go all in in such a scenario? And that means changing war aims as well. The Wallies could unknowingly make the Hawks of the Axis a big present by pulling out the NBC or advance at all costs options. How long until political Berlin would finally fully snap and goes "peace yes, but now we want true gains for our blood"?

I sincerely hope the Wallies do not go NBC, but I fear they might do, since there usual tactic of throwing masses at the problem does not work here. This could not only be nasty to the population of the New Axis, but the retaliation would be nasty as well. Germany and Japan do not only have the nucear bombs at Büchel, but the are sitting on huge stockpiles of stuff they do not want to use, but would if they have no other choice. Actually their supply of chemical weapons is larger than those of the Wallies. Germany´s combat-ready stockpile of chemical weapons is big enough to depopulate whole nations. And they not only have the usual suspects like VX, Sarin, Tabun and their friends, but in early 1945 Germany posesses 90 tons of "N-Stoff"(and can produce more of it, N-Stoff is unknown outside of Germany at that point in time). That is not even a combat gas, but the effects are not ones you want to see in your country.
That funny, little chemical is not only toxic when breathed in, but a sure thing to start fires. It burns at about 2400°C, can ignite stuff like Asbestos or concrete and cannot be put out with water. That stuff is truly a pyromaniac´s dream.
 
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mko95 said:
but in early 1945 Germany posesses 90 tons of "N-Stoff"(and can produce more of it, N-Stoff is unknown outside of Germany at that point in time). That is not even a combat gas, but the effects are not ones you want to see in your country.
That funny, little chemical is not only toxic when breathed in, but a sure thing to start fires. It burns at about 2400°C, can ignite stuff like Asbestos or concrete and cannot be put out with water. That stuff is truly a pyromaniac´s dream.
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For anyone who, like me, had never heard of this stuff: It's better known as Chlorine Trifluoride, which should be all you need to know roughly what it does.
 
I doubt that the Western Allies will begin NBC Warfare for the following reasons(by Nation):
- The French
don't have NBC Weapons, don't have the ability to Transport them to German Cities
- The British
want to make Peace (and are in easy range for a retaliation)
- The Americans
might want to use them (at least their leaders) but the attack on NYC demonstrates that the Germans can retaliate against US Cities so they (for Example General Marschall) will face of the Germans in a kind MAD-style senario
 
Lord Okkirke said:
I doubt that the Western Allies will begin NBC Warfare for the following reasons(by Nation):
- The French
don't have NBC Weapons, don't have the ability to Transport them to German Cities
- The British
want to make Peace (and are in easy range for a retaliation)
- The Americans
might want to use them (at least their leaders) but the attack on NYC demonstrates that the Germans can retaliate against US Cities so they (for Example General Marschall) will face of the Germans in a kind MAD-style senario
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1 - True, that kind of happens when your homeland has been occupied for years now.

2 - More than true, the British got their most cirtical military branches kind of blow out of the sky, on the airfields, or worst of all - sent to the bottom of the sea... all conventionally. The last thing they want is to open this particular Pandora's box, because if the new Germans could for all intents and purposes defeat them conventionally, which they did, what could they do if pushed beyond any reason?

3 - You're right about what the reaspnable commanders would believe. The national command authority however, well right now Roosevelt is kind of in his owb little world of fear and hatred... Which is unfortunately plausilbe for a few reasons, both covered by the author and not explicitly stated. For Roosevelt, and a smaller extent, elements of the US governmet of the era, WWII wasn't just in order to liberate Europe from Nazism TM, much less to save people from the Death Camps, which wasn't really a thing most people would even think possible until advancing troops reached those hells on Earth and sent back hard proof.

The war was to ensure that Germany, Nazi or not, would no longer be a threat and won't be in a possition to start a WWIII in the future, something that the Cold War at least in part derailed with both East and West Germany becoming military camps, but that is a different story. The primary reason why I see it plausible that the WAllies would push for a victory until the bitter end, or at least members of their governments who don't need to do the dying themeselves is simple beyond what we know about how invested they were in winning and the political cost of bringing something less than a total victory. Its the fact that letting this new Germany carry on intact, means that in the long run the WAllies would be practically abandoning Europe to its cultural, economic and political domination, in increasing order of importance. It would mean that they will all have to content with a new super power, in some cases on their literal doorstep and abandoning the future to the new Germans and that more than anything else would be a terrifying prospect. Just one that might be hard to get people to fight for, especially in a far off US, at least before the mess that became of the New Yourk shipyards strikes.

edit: spelling
 
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Kelenas said:
Since not everyone's a chemist, here's a wiki-article about it for those interested:

Chlorine trifluoride - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
But yeah; "it burns ALL THE THINGS", as @mko95 kinda said is a pretty good summary about what it does in practice.
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NuclearBird said:
Ah yes.
The chemical that was so dangerous that it made even the Nazis go "Fuck that".
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Hi! Exactly that "gem" of chemical exploration. Reports of how much was produced during the war vary between 20 and nearly 200 tons, the number I read the most was about 90 tons, so I went with that. It was just to show that the New Axis has some nasty stuff as a weapon of ultima ratio. The merged Germany in early 1945 has over 20.000 tons(!) (40.000 if the stocks were among the buildings doubled) of chemical weapons "on ready to use" status plus about 90 tons of N-Stoff, with a chemical industry able to deliver quick resupply. The Japanese stockpile of biological and chemical agents is nothing to sneeze at either. That, together with instant sunshine stored at Büchel, should be enough to deter the Wallies from using NBC in Walküre-TL. But then again, in real life the US used the A-bomb. On the other hand, in Walküre-TL Germany and Japan can hit the Wallies with a counterstrike.

Illuviar said:
3 - You're right about what the reaspnable commanders would believe. The national command authority however, well right now Roosvelt is kind of in his onw little world of fear and hatred... Which is unfortunately plausilbe for a few reasons, both covered by the author and not explicitly stated. For Roosvelt, and a smaller extent, elements of the US governmet of the era, WWII wasn't just in order to liberate Europe from Nazism TM, much less to save people from the Death Camps, which wasn't really a thing most people would even think possible until advancing troops reached those hells on Earth and sent back hard proof.
The war was to ensure that Germany, Nazi or not, would no longer be a threat and won't be in a possition to start a WWIII in the future, something that the Cold War at least in part derailed with both East and West Germany becoming military camps, but that is a different story. The primary reason why I see it plausible that the WAllies would push for a victory until the bitter end, or at least members of their governments who don't need to do the dying themeselves is simple beyond what we know about how invested they were in winning and the political cost of bringing something less than a total victory. Its the fact that letting this new Germany carry one intact, means that in the long run the WAllies would be practically abandoning Europe to its cultural, economic and political domination, in increasing order of importance. It would mean that they will all have to content with a new super power, in some cases on their literal doorstep and abandoning the future to the new Germans and that more than anything else would be a terrifying prospect. Just one that might be hard to get people to fight for, especially in a far off US, at least before the mess that became of the New Yourk shipyards strikes.
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You should say, that Germany would not longer be a threat to their own designs of world domination! Unfortunately for them in Walküre-TL, the New Axis can still mount resistance to the Wallies. I hope that among the Wallies the rational heads finally begin to gain traction, because if Roosevelt and Co. stay in command, with their singular tactic of drowning the opposition in numbers, which now fails might lead them to use NBC weaponry.
And what these idiots simply cannot see is that Germany and Japan now have the means to strike back without compromising their situation. If Roosevelt and his cronies really start something like "Operation Vegetarian" or chemical agents, they better hope it succeeds fully. Because if it fails or succeeds only partially, that will push the doves among the Axis to the breaking point. An evil like Vegetarian might even see Berlin and Tokyo choosing the Ultima Ratio option. We or them, Counterstriking with their full arsenal of NBC weapons against the Wallies.
While they might not use all of the nuclear warheads, esp. not against Britain - you do not need a radioactive graveyard so close to the continent, their stockpile of chemical weapons is really large and can be replenished quickly. Hitting both US coasts and the interior with Tiamats and missiles, dumping thousands of tons of C-weapons and N-Stoff on strategic targets WILL truly hurt.
Hopefully it will not come to this, that cooler heads prevail.
 
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mko95 said:
Hopefully it will not come to this, that cooler heads prevail.
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As a human being, I whole-heartedly agree.


However, I can't help but admit that there's a (very, very) small part of me, shaped like a stereotypical teenage-boy, letting out a disappointed "awwww..." at the thought of missing out on a 'real-life' Mad Max/Fallout/Wasteland. :oops:


With that bout of black humor out of the way, though; one factor in the discussion of WMDs that's so far been kinda forgotten/ignored is the Soviet Union. IIRC they've signed a ceasefire/peace agreement with the Axis, yes, but to be realistic; whatever front they might put up to dupe the average Soviet citizen, Stalin and his cronies aren't gonna be any more happy with an intact Germany and Japan than Roosevelt or Churchill. And the WAllies and Axis both devastated by mutual use of WMDs like nukes, anthrax, etc while they watch from the sidelines would basically be a wet dream come true for them. Toss in that Stalin isn't exactly a stranger to opportunism or underhanded methods, and it's possible that the SU might try to steer things towards such an escalation, both by using what agents it has in the US and elsewhere to influence public opinion, and by possibly offering some under-the-table deals/support such offering to sell its stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, or raw materials for production of nuclear bombs, to the US.
 
@mko95 is right concerning the situation. IF the WAllies use NBC weapons, the Germans can retaliate in kind. And likely much more nasty.

Oh, and we only talk about an orrdered attack and use of NBC weapons. I have to remember on the Bari attack 1943, where the Luftwaffe sank SS John Harvey with US mustard gas shells. The Allies believed at first, the Germans used the gas, but it was soon recognized it was their own. Something they tried to hide. Only in 1959 the records were given free, but not until 1967 they remained not very known. Here such an accident could happen again and lead to an escalation...
 
In a PM debate @Lord Okkirke asked me, what happened to the Italian carrier Sparviero. She had been captured intact by the Germans. As I had made the Aquila to a Midway class battle carrier (as I did with the Graf Zeppelin), I thought it was too much, to do so with the Sparviero. However, I took a second look on her. She was to carry only 25-34 planes and with only 20 kn at best she was an auxiliar carrier. My sources said, she was still not finished and only the superstructure had been removed. The English wiki site says in contrast, that she was nearly finished. Because of that I am not so sure, if my first thought, to leave her as she was, was right. So what would you think? Shall I

1. let her remain in the state as she is, just another hulk?
2. let her be completed as planned, meaning a Sparviero class carrier?
3. OR replace her with a third Midway class carrier, the Graf Zeppelin?
 
This might sound a little callous, but; does it actually matter? Either the Sparviero doesn't really change the outcome of the various battles, operations, etc, except in the minute details, in which case it's presence or status aren't really all that relevant to begin with, or it does result in some major changes, in which case you'd theoretically have to re-write potentially large parts of the story, which I don't really think is in anyone's interest at this point.

Basically; as nice as attention to detail usually is, it's also very easy to get lost in the details when they actually don't matter.
 
the carrier may not be finished.
If you integrate it into the story, you must consider that it does not negatively affect the narrative.
 
mko95 said:
And they not only have the usual suspects like VX, Sarin, Tabun and their friends, but in early 1945 Germany posesses 90 tons of "N-Stoff"(and can produce more of it, N-Stoff is unknown outside of Germany at that point in time). That is not even a combat gas, but the effects are not ones you want to see in your country.
That funny, little chemical is not only toxic when breathed in, but a sure thing to start fires. It burns at about 2400°C, can ignite stuff like Asbestos or concrete and cannot be put out with water. That stuff is truly a pyromaniac´s dream.
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Is N-Stoff even weaponizable? That stuff eats metal for breakfast, and is so nasty even rocket scientists or the SS went NOPE. IIRC, the only thing it's ever good for is for cleaning nuclear reactors.
 
JaeneraTargaryen said:
Is N-Stoff even weaponizable? That stuff eats metal for breakfast, and is so nasty even rocket scientists or the SS went NOPE. IIRC, the only thing it's ever good for is for cleaning nuclear reactors.
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Funnily enough, if you were able to make everything the N-Stoff came into contact with out of metal, and took care to prevent significant damage to any of the surfaces in the weapon that would come into contact with the N-Stoff, possibly. This is mostly due to the fact that, when stored in a steel drum, the N-Stoff will fluorinate the inner wall of the steel drum into a layer of maximally fluorinated metal/metallic fluorine. If that coating is disturbed and not allowed to reform, however, it is entirely possible to wind up with a metal-fluorine fire, which would be bad.
 
Can N-Stoff be stored in grenades/bombs?

Anyway, I have made my decision in regards of the Sparviero. The decision made is not in any way forcing me to rewrite anything.
 
My decision is, that the Sparviero was replaced by yet a third Midway class battle carrier, the Graf Zeppelin. As of now no changes have to be made in the story.
 
Tyr Anazasi said:
Can N-Stoff be stored in grenades/bombs?

Anyway, I have made my decision in regards of the Sparviero. The decision made is not in any way forcing me to rewrite anything.
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I'd say no, and even if it were, no soldier would want to carry it. This stuff is so nasty that even the SS IOTL didn't want to go anywhere near it, and after the war even rocket scientists took a single look and refused to even try using it. The only thing it eventually became good for was cleaning up nuclear waste.
 
JaeneraTargaryen said:
I'd say no, and even if it were, no soldier would want to carry it. This stuff is so nasty that even the SS IOTL didn't want to go anywhere near it, and after the war even rocket scientists took a single look and refused to even try using it. The only thing it eventually became good for was cleaning up nuclear waste.
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I think you're confusing Uranium Hexafluoride there. And even then, that one is used in the enrichment cycle and not for cleaning. Can't find any material stating what they use for cleaning the enrichment plants and pressure chambers, and maybe that's a good thing.
ClF3 (N-Stoff) is used in the Semiconductor Industry to clean up the byproducts of Vapor Deposition waste from vacuum chamber walls. No use in the Nuclear Industry. Not in modern plants at least.

Also, I know a molecule that's much more fun than Chlorine Trifluoride: FOOF (Dioxygen Difluoride).
 
Tyr Anazasi said:
Can N-Stoff be stored in grenades/bombs?
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If you're determined enough, almost anything can be done at least once. Better question is if you can do it twice, and if there aren't better ways to do it. Filling grenades with something that fills the air around you at the slightest leak, and dissolves/incinerates your lungs and eyes only slightly more easily than it dissolves anything you might wear to protect yourself, or any armored vehicles around, doesn't score very high on that list.
Bombs sound very slightly more feasible if you don't care for whereever you're keeping the ammo dump (i.e. not a ship among other things), but if I was a bomber pilot I'd still nervously ask why we can't leave that job to nice unmanned rockets instead. Or use literally anything else. I wasn't under the impression that Germany had any shortage of chemical or incendiary agents at this time, even if they got desperate enough to consider ClF3.

You know a chemical is bad if the most highly recommended safety equipment for working near it is a good pair of running shoes.
 
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Tyr Anazasi said:
Can N-Stoff be stored in grenades/bombs?
Anyway, I have made my decision in regards of the Sparviero. The decision made is not in any way forcing me to rewrite anything.
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Yes, it can be done, but there should be as much automatation in doing so as can be. As was written before, as long as you store N-stoff in airtight metaldrums, everything is ok, as long as no seal is breached. So bombs are more doable than grenades, which would need more care and precision, but both are doable. Delivery should be done via unmanned stuff like e.g. rockets and for precision stuff, cruise missiles and specially prepared bombers, the grenades by artillery guns you can use without being all too near to it.
There were a lot of plans IOTL how to use N-Stoff for the armed forces and civilian use, but it´s nastiness and high demands on safety makes it a weapon option you pull only when truly needed. E.g. a counterstrike because of an NBC attack by the Wallies.

as an P.S. since we discuss N-Stoff: The old testplant could produce about 5 tons ClF3 a day. It can be handled and weaponised, but as I wrote above, it´s nastiness sets high demands on safety.
 
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Either let the carrier Sparviero stay incomplete or make it complete according to the original (crappy) design. Modernizing her to a Midway class is another freebie that IMO Germany does not need (from a narrative standpoint of course).
 
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