- Location
- Asia
Merkels Operation Walküre
- Thread starter Tyr Anazasi
- Start date
- Timeline Post-1900 Supernatural
-
- Tags
- isot (isekai) germany
- Status
rofl:
Pyeknu
Cross-Dimensional Magical Sith Lady
- Location
- Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada
Eagerly awaiting, my friend.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Well, although there are some members of the Mossad involved, most are DT Jews, some of which had been liberated out of a death camp. So in their hatred against Germany they act accordingly. Yes, they are al-Qaeda like. However, they have more means to hurt the Germans. Ironically if they succeeded, the Germans could at least say, a Jewish terror gang was backstabbing us. Even if they fail, it might be enough to prevent Germany from creating Israel. And that's the fear of the main group of Mossad agents. They know, Germany will win. They know, they have a kind of card blanche in regards to Israel in the moment. Once this happens, they can't even ask for the worst piece of land in Negev desert nobody lives in. That's why they even tried to save the situation internally. Which nearly led to a catastrophe.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Exactly. They want to protect the Jews and prevent a panic, in which everything could happen.
Darksoul2142
SUMMONER OF DARK DRAGON
- Location
- Riyadh, Saudi Arabia
A loooooong period of incarceration I suppose.
Chapter II-Part 68-Troy said:
And so we have seen the first leakage of "UT knowledge/expertise" to a DT country. Doesn't matter even in the long run, Germany will always be 10-20 years forwards of everyone else in the world in terms of technological progression.
___________________________________________________________________________
I was thinking about what the composition of the Deutsche Marine would be post war in the short and long term.
[SPECULATION MODE ACTIVATED]
(1) For aircraft carriers Germany could have a 3 ship class of "heavy" aircraft carriers in the form of a heavily upgraded (new build) USS Midway class built with nuclear reactors or gas turbines. After all the Germans do have a physical USS Midway to inspect and learn about aircraft carrier design from. The resultant ship may or may not end up looking like a slightly smaller and less capable version of the Gerald R. Ford class aircraft carrier.
Not sure if America/Wasp class (LHA) types of ships could be useful to the German Navy.
(2) As far as the backbone of the Deutsche Marine is concerned an upgraded (new build) version of the Baden-Württemberg frigate can take the role of a multimission/multirole destroyer (come on Eurofrigates are practically destroyers).
Once again not sure if Ticonderoga or Type 055 class cruisers would be of use to Germany considering its geographical position.
(3) Corvettes are easy. Germany can build upgraded versions of the Braunschweig class corvettes.
(4) Attack submarines are once again easy to replace. Just build upgraded versions of the Type 212A attack submarines. In my opinion the German Navy will not require nuclear powered attack submarines as diesel+AIP submarines have enough endurance and range for Germany's future committments and requirements (I can be wrong about this).
Germany definitely needs to acquire ballistic missile submarines as soon as possible. They could begin with converting U434 (Project 641B), U461 (Project 651) and U42 (Oberon class) to SSBNs much in the same way the Soviets went through the Project 641 to the Project 629. This would be a costly way of way of doing this and they might just end up with a sub-par SSBN.
One alternative could be licencing (or buying off a few hulls) the I-400 class from Japan and basing off a SSBN design from that. Ofcourse an SSBN would require Germany to develop SLBMs and the people at Peenemünde Army Research Centre are probably working hard on creating one.
(5) As far as FACs are concerned more new build Gepard class FACs are a cost effective in the short-medium term. Something similar to the Hamina class would be a good replacement.
(6) Can't really see much use for battleships post-war as they are manpower and maintenance cost blackholes. At best they can be mothballed/put in reserve like the Iowa class battleships were IOTL or relegated to becoming museum ships.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Also, there's still half(?) the population indoctrinated by Nazi propaganda. If Jewish terror cells would commence successful attacks, the domestic fallout would be substantial.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
For the naval speculation, I can add this:
From post #407. Note, that this is the opinion of an admiral.
If the last possibility to win the war for the Allies will fail, you need to regard the strategic situation. I can't tell you much about the specific situation, as that would mean to reveal spoilers. However:
1. Germany needs numbers of ships. Not all ships can be "modern" though, as it would mean too much money spent.
What Germany could build:
1. Sachsen class frigate*
2. Class 180 Mehrzweckkampfschiff 180 – Wikipedia
3. Braunschweig class corvette**
4. class 212 submarine
5. Class 216 submarine
6. Class 218 SG submarine
A new class of minesweepers and S-boats (missile) would be needed as well. Also I agree with a new cruiser and full destroyer. The next carrier will be a third Midway class carrier to get more knowledge. The Forrestal equivalent will be the next.
These ships are COSTLY. A Sachsen class frigate costs only slightly less than a battleship. Thus it will be needed to modernize the ships the Germans have.
Economical possible you can modernize these ships:
All battleships except Maria Theresia.
The Deutschland class PB and Dunquerque class BC can be relegated to secondary roles, as can CA von der Tann and CA Tegetthoff.
The other CA can be modernized.
Of the CL Leipzig and Köln can be relegated to secondary roles, Emden can be scrapped. The other ships can be modernized.
Of the destroyers most are rather short legged, still you need a number modernized. For the torpedo boats only the types 1939, 1940 and 1941 are relevant for modernization.
The M-Boats won't be modernized much. The new Type 1944 may evolve into a kind of Type 1945, which would make them a kind of mine sweeping missile corvette.
That CAN be done.
*Note: Due to political circumstances ships are called frigates in Germany, albeit they are as big as destroyers elsewhere. The class 180 "Mehrzweckkampfschiff" (multi purpose combat ship) shall have even a displacement of up to 10.000 ts! They are more cruisers. As the Chinese and US call their newest cruisers (Zumwalt, Type 055) destroyers, I would think, that these ships remain frigates. Hypocrisy.
** Similar to the frigates such corvettes are as big as frigates with nearly 2.000 ts.
Interesting story.
I am from Poland - according to my info,in 1944 only 3 parties mattered in Poland:
1.Peasant party of Mikołajczyk - they trusted soviet in OTL,come back to Poland and his party get massacred in 1947.now,they should trust german offer,too.
2.Socialists - they trusted soviets,too,and was also massacred/officially they "willingly" join in 1948/
3.Most popular - nationalist.they were catholics,so they never helped germans like ukrainians or lithuanians did,but they had brains - they do not try to return after 1945,and before that they sometimes made peace with local german garrisons to hunt soviet partisants/who in reality was bandits harrasing locals - Home Army did not fought them becouse of honour/
So,they could made a deal,too - as long as germans do not try take chunks of Poland - and if they made any referendum,germans who helped murder Poles or steal from them after 1939/practically all germans there/ could not vote.
Both Wilno and Lwów cities was mostly polish,just like surronding villages - so referendum there would gave it to Poland.
Ukrainian territories...considering what UPA did to poles there,we could leave that to soviets.there were practically no living poles there anyway
Supreme commander of polish forces was general Sosnkowski - able commander,who do not commit suicide for USA.
About Polish forces - except cracking Enigma and giving it to England in 1939,Home Army delivered to them info about V2,Atlantic Wall etc - more then 60% of info about Germany come from Poland.
And Home Army had some contact with Abwhera,even Canaris - but becouse the were purged after the war,we do not much about that.
Author could use it.
P.S there is one problems - if peoples from both Germany are in 1944,then what remain in 2015? hole in the earth?
I am from Poland - according to my info,in 1944 only 3 parties mattered in Poland:
1.Peasant party of Mikołajczyk - they trusted soviet in OTL,come back to Poland and his party get massacred in 1947.now,they should trust german offer,too.
2.Socialists - they trusted soviets,too,and was also massacred/officially they "willingly" join in 1948/
3.Most popular - nationalist.they were catholics,so they never helped germans like ukrainians or lithuanians did,but they had brains - they do not try to return after 1945,and before that they sometimes made peace with local german garrisons to hunt soviet partisants/who in reality was bandits harrasing locals - Home Army did not fought them becouse of honour/
So,they could made a deal,too - as long as germans do not try take chunks of Poland - and if they made any referendum,germans who helped murder Poles or steal from them after 1939/practically all germans there/ could not vote.
Both Wilno and Lwów cities was mostly polish,just like surronding villages - so referendum there would gave it to Poland.
Ukrainian territories...considering what UPA did to poles there,we could leave that to soviets.there were practically no living poles there anyway
Supreme commander of polish forces was general Sosnkowski - able commander,who do not commit suicide for USA.
About Polish forces - except cracking Enigma and giving it to England in 1939,Home Army delivered to them info about V2,Atlantic Wall etc - more then 60% of info about Germany come from Poland.
And Home Army had some contact with Abwhera,even Canaris - but becouse the were purged after the war,we do not much about that.
Author could use it.
P.S there is one problems - if peoples from both Germany are in 1944,then what remain in 2015? hole in the earth?
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
You're right concerning the situation in Poland. I could give you an overview TTL.
Before I want to leave it completely open, what happened with the 2014 situation. I won't come back to that time again.
Anyway, the nationalists are the main political party in Poland in TTL. The government in exile is recognized as such by the Germans, indeed they made several offers to them. Neither was successful.
In the interwar years, up to 1934, Poland was a main threat to Germany and there were even attempts to get the French into a war with Germany. These attempts failed and so there was no war. However, the situation did change finally when a certain Austrian became chancellor and later so called "Führer". Until 1938/39 the Polish-German relationship had been the best since 1918! One should not forget this. Even a solution because of Danzig was possible. But then the French intervened and Poland changed her mind, as suddenly that was no longer possible again. Hitler tried to negotiate, which finally evolved into threats. Eventually he attacked Poland because of robbing the treasure he needed to pay rearmament.
In 1941 the Poles did only sign the Atlantic Charta, which included the ban of annexations, with caveats. Here the prewar attitude became dominant again, as they demanded East Prussia and Upper Silesia. Without Königsberg Poland could not "live"! That was one reason. Even in 1990 the Polish government said, they would finally give up all claims on the areas east of the Elbe.
So Poland is between Germany and Russia. It's no good idea to make BOTH angry at the same time.
Here, ITTL, Poland had several chances to accept a deal with Germany. They refused, partly because of their nationalistic stance, partly because of not being the person accepting the loss of Polish areas. In the west they could have the borders of 1919, with some modifications perhaps. In the east, well, Stalin. And Merkel could only do so much, as they had not accepted their offers. She looked carefully to the areas having a Polish majority and acted accordingly. Officially she didn't draw a new border, but a demarcation line with the Soviets. The final border should be negotiated between Poland and Stalin. Yes, you got it. De facto it will be a border, at least for some time. Therefore Lwow (Lemberg) remained Polish, some other areas not. Wilna is Lithuanian. Simply as Lithuania is a German ally and thus Germany couldn't do much, especially as Poland didn't accept even talks.
Simply OTL the Polish government in exile made several mistakes OTL, so they would do so here as well. They are betting on the US horse, simply, as they think, they can't stop and make peace. The US didn't stop fighting in Vietnam because of helping the South Vietnam government or fighting Commies, but not to be the first US politician to accept defeat. That would be here as well. And Poland has indeed a chance to be on the winner side. A small one though. IF that worked, good for them. If not...
As for Sosnkowski, he has a role to play here as well. More I can't tell you.
Before I want to leave it completely open, what happened with the 2014 situation. I won't come back to that time again.
Anyway, the nationalists are the main political party in Poland in TTL. The government in exile is recognized as such by the Germans, indeed they made several offers to them. Neither was successful.
In the interwar years, up to 1934, Poland was a main threat to Germany and there were even attempts to get the French into a war with Germany. These attempts failed and so there was no war. However, the situation did change finally when a certain Austrian became chancellor and later so called "Führer". Until 1938/39 the Polish-German relationship had been the best since 1918! One should not forget this. Even a solution because of Danzig was possible. But then the French intervened and Poland changed her mind, as suddenly that was no longer possible again. Hitler tried to negotiate, which finally evolved into threats. Eventually he attacked Poland because of robbing the treasure he needed to pay rearmament.
In 1941 the Poles did only sign the Atlantic Charta, which included the ban of annexations, with caveats. Here the prewar attitude became dominant again, as they demanded East Prussia and Upper Silesia. Without Königsberg Poland could not "live"! That was one reason. Even in 1990 the Polish government said, they would finally give up all claims on the areas east of the Elbe.
So Poland is between Germany and Russia. It's no good idea to make BOTH angry at the same time.
Here, ITTL, Poland had several chances to accept a deal with Germany. They refused, partly because of their nationalistic stance, partly because of not being the person accepting the loss of Polish areas. In the west they could have the borders of 1919, with some modifications perhaps. In the east, well, Stalin. And Merkel could only do so much, as they had not accepted their offers. She looked carefully to the areas having a Polish majority and acted accordingly. Officially she didn't draw a new border, but a demarcation line with the Soviets. The final border should be negotiated between Poland and Stalin. Yes, you got it. De facto it will be a border, at least for some time. Therefore Lwow (Lemberg) remained Polish, some other areas not. Wilna is Lithuanian. Simply as Lithuania is a German ally and thus Germany couldn't do much, especially as Poland didn't accept even talks.
Simply OTL the Polish government in exile made several mistakes OTL, so they would do so here as well. They are betting on the US horse, simply, as they think, they can't stop and make peace. The US didn't stop fighting in Vietnam because of helping the South Vietnam government or fighting Commies, but not to be the first US politician to accept defeat. That would be here as well. And Poland has indeed a chance to be on the winner side. A small one though. IF that worked, good for them. If not...
As for Sosnkowski, he has a role to play here as well. More I can't tell you.
- Location
- oreegon, USA
With the expanded German population the 1914 eastern borders would be legitimate. There had been some population transfers between 1939 and 1944 with the resettlement of Volksdeutsche and transfer of ethnic Poles to the General Government.
"If I were to be a real prick I would go for the 1796 borders. /s"
According to german law,killing more then 5 million of polish citizen was legitimate.That was difference between soviets and germans - germans almost always genocided according to german law,when soviets could easily broke soviet law.
Hitler arleady annexed part of Poland.And how do you propose to keep Hitler borders,when you officially condemn him? Remember,then in our scenario german saw with their own eys,that there never was any"polish deatch camps" ,and that they really was nation of genociders.
During WW2 germans burn about 1000 polish villages with their inhabitants.And everybody in 1944 remembered that.They hang peoples in towns,and in bigger cities schoot them under the walls.
Now you could meet idiots in Poland or Germany who forget about german crimes in Poland- but in 1944 everybody knew the truth.Difference was,that for germans from 1944 that was OK.
P.S Poles in 1944 was really something.For example - in Dachau polish priest was proposed,then if they agree to become germans,they would be spared.All refused - as a result,half of them was killed.
Witold Pilecki come as volunteer to Auschwitz and created underground there.Saint Maximilian Kilbe volunteer to die from starvation in german camp Auschwitz - and,becouse people from his group prayed instead of cry for help,germans from that moment abadonned practice of starving prisoners to deatch.That was polish victory.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
There was no law, which condamned Polish civilians to death. There was no Holocaust law. Everything Hitler did in this regard, and his cronies of course, was illegal to German law as well, even in 1944. Ironically, one of the last orders of the Dönitz government was the sending of official persecutors to the KZs to make own investigations. Oh, and to be clear: The resettlements of the Poles by the Germans in that time were as wrong as the Polish resettlements of Germans after 1918 and 1945. No crime justifies another crrime.
- Location
- oreegon, USA
I will try to refrain from feeding the trolls. In reality I do not think the 1796 borders created by Frederick Wilhelm II are viable. The 1914 borders plus the Sudetenland and Austria are reasonable.
Yet germans send 6 Eisetskommandos to kill polish elites in 1939,and when they schoot Poles on the streets or hang,they do that according to german law.
Althought you are right about Holocaust -it really was illegal.
Now,some facts for you
Nationalist in London was represent by Władysław Folkierski and Zygmunt Berezowski,their partisant unit,Holy Cross mountain brigade was still in Poland/In OTL they retreated West,faked cooperation with germans,and 5.05.45 liberated concentration camp for woman in Holysow,where german just plan to burn alive jewish prisoners.
Home Army was formally still lead by general Tadeusz Rowecki who was german prisoner in Oranienburg - and smart enough to not die for USA..
Canaris contacted british through Halina Szymańska,which he meet in Berlin before 1939 /she was diplomat wife / he safe her after 1939 and let go to Berno - where she meet her every time when he want gave something to british.she gave that to polish agents,which gave that to british/
In OTL Mikołajczyk and polish socialist cooperated with soviets from 1945 - so they would cooperate with germans,too.
Nationalists was pragmatist - they do not try cooperate with soviets,becouse they knew,that soviets would use and kill them after that.Germans from 2015? of course,they would cooperate.
General Sosnkowski in 1944 accused Allies of not helping Uprising and was fired - he would not die for USA,too.
To be honest,only factions who could go die for USA would be remnants of Sanacja,which ruled Poland in 1939,but they had no support - with exception of some higher officers.
Only Sanacja supporters could be higher officers from 1926 to 1939 - so,any higher ranks must be taken from them.
Do not think,that all Poles was suicidal idiots,becouse our leaders behave like that in 1939.They were sanacja,and they ruled becouse they made putch in 1926.Military dictatorship rarely is smart,so our was stupid,too.
But in 1944 polish goverment was democratic - and they would no going to commit suicide.Especially,if german terms really would be just like in your story.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
There was no law allowing Einsatzgruppen to run havock. They didn't act according the rules or laws.
The Polish governments in the interwar time were not smart. And in ww2 they had also some problems with her allies as well. They could have acted smarter. In any case, I do believe, they would try to gain something, not lose something. Therefore they would follow the WAllies and at a certain point it would be too late to change.
From 1926 to 1939 Poland was military dictature - and yes,they were stupid.
During WW2 we could acted smarter - for example,do not made peace with soviets in 1941 without guarantee of borders.Or told Poles in USA to vote for guy,who guarantee Europe free from soviets/republicans/,when we supported soviet friend FDR.
goverment would try to follow USA - but considering that Mikolajczyk and socialists in OTL try made deal with Stalin,they would try the same with Germans.
And nationalists would follow,too - they were pragmatist after all.In 1942 they decide to not attack germans/except self-defence and killing genociders/ , becouse they do not want to waste polish lives on arleady defeated enemy.
Army - Sosnkowski would not commit suicide for USA,and Home Army - Rowecki would do the same.
Considering,that we had contact with Canaris,all what you need to form new goverment in Warsaw is info from him to both Home Army and polish agents in Berno.
After that,official goverment could stay in USA for next 50 years,backed by USA only.
And Mikolajczyk would agree to honest referendum - /without participating germans who help kill or steal from Poles/
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
There are contacts between the Polish Home Army and the Bundeswehr. Currently there is a kind of cease fire. And yes, there are contacts to other Polish politicians. However, that is also a kind of a problem. As the government in exile has (also) to look for the internal opposition. But the main problem for them is, that they are not in Warsaw, but in London. They don't have every news. Indeed the feeding of them by the Germans made them too suspicious about that as well. Please keep in mind, that they think, the Germans don't have masses of "Wunderwaffen", but only a few. So they severely misjudged the situation. And even though they have doubts now, they seem, OTOH, not able to change the course anymore.
However, it isn't only their fault, as the Allies doesn't recognize the danger of the OTL German capabilities. The DT technology can modified, that they are still years ahead. A Ta 183 fighter with AIM-9 F missiles and J85 engines is superior to everything the WAllies can field. So they believe in the data the US gave them as well.
Anyway, you need to wait for chapter 4 to see more.
However, it isn't only their fault, as the Allies doesn't recognize the danger of the OTL German capabilities. The DT technology can modified, that they are still years ahead. A Ta 183 fighter with AIM-9 F missiles and J85 engines is superior to everything the WAllies can field. So they believe in the data the US gave them as well.
Anyway, you need to wait for chapter 4 to see more.
Neepa
Always pondering story possibilities
- Location
- Germany
What excatly are the plans for the slow upgrading of the Luftwaffe? I mean they know what worked and what didn't now so they can cherry pick all the projects pursued and just reimagine them a bit with 60ies-70ies technology to outclass anything the 40ies could throw at them.
Although for aircraft production resources might still be a consideration for some months. There could also be the problem that no one in the world can supply some much needed key materials as they don't have the means to produce them in the way the technology of today needs them.
In general I would then expect the general technology level to drop a bit as microchips become a sought after part for example. Simpler integrated circuitry might find a revival for some time until production capacity catches up again.
Yay 80ies retro tech revival!
Although for aircraft production resources might still be a consideration for some months. There could also be the problem that no one in the world can supply some much needed key materials as they don't have the means to produce them in the way the technology of today needs them.
In general I would then expect the general technology level to drop a bit as microchips become a sought after part for example. Simpler integrated circuitry might find a revival for some time until production capacity catches up again.
Yay 80ies retro tech revival!
My impression overall was that the Polish G-i-E in this story wasn't necessarily "stupid" as such, but more suffering from an extreme case of Sunk Cost Fallacy. Ie, they have already invested so much time, effort, resources, and blood into an Allied/Soviet victory that'd allow them to realize their territorial ambitions, they feel they have to stick by their decision so their aforementioned investments aren't "wasted".
- Location
- Asia
That said, they do think very lowly of up-time Germany because it's 'led by a woman'.
- Location
- Hamburg, Germany
Kelenas is right. They concentrate on the US, as they had invested too much. They bet on the wrong horse.
About the DT Luftwaffe projects, well. Some projects need just time to be developed. So for example the Ta 183, Ho 229 and some others are still some way off. And for some more modern projects you need resources you don't have. That may change soon.
Anyway, for the time being the Me 262 will be the main jet produced. But it's clear, that plane would be only a stopgap for a better plane. There are also plans to make the X-4 AAM better, but in the end they decided to rebuild the AIM 9 F (aka AIM 9 B F.G.W. 2). The Germans had made their AIM 9 variants better. The Viper missile project of the '70s would have been a better missile than the AIM 9 L, BTW.
Other planes are in development, but they won't be ready before mid '45- at best.
About the DT Luftwaffe projects, well. Some projects need just time to be developed. So for example the Ta 183, Ho 229 and some others are still some way off. And for some more modern projects you need resources you don't have. That may change soon.
Anyway, for the time being the Me 262 will be the main jet produced. But it's clear, that plane would be only a stopgap for a better plane. There are also plans to make the X-4 AAM better, but in the end they decided to rebuild the AIM 9 F (aka AIM 9 B F.G.W. 2). The Germans had made their AIM 9 variants better. The Viper missile project of the '70s would have been a better missile than the AIM 9 L, BTW.
Other planes are in development, but they won't be ready before mid '45- at best.
No?
Poles from 1944 was not idiots - they would not think low about country who kicked both soviets and american.And in Poland woman had right to vote from 1919.Many best polish agents was actually woman.
Now,some facts:
1.In 1944 there existed "Government delegation for Poland" in Warsaw - kind of underground goverment.17.04.44 its archive on Poznańska 12 street was captured by combined gestapo-soviet force - proof,that at least against Poland Ribbentrop pact still worked.
Germans could contact them - there were no suicidal idiots there.
2.Polish Home Army had about 400.000 people,but farmer party had "farmers battalions"/B.Ch/ - about 150.000 - mainly protecting villages from being burned by germans,,and nationalist National armed forces - about 70.000.They had good agents,too.
At least 100.000 of those from Home Army/AK/were nationalist who agreed to join them,and many socialists,too/i do not knew how many/
3.How german occupation looked like in practice? for example,24.03.44 germans murdered józefa and Wiktorię Ulmów alongside their 6 children in Markowa ,becouse they hidden 8 jews.Jews was murdered,too.German commander,Eilert Dicken,was policeman after the war - nobody punished him.
But,there was ONE COLLOSAL POLISH MISTAKE - in 1944 Home Army was ordered to help coming soviets and welcome them.Results? they helped retake Wilno - and was send to Gulag.Later they help retake Lwów - and was send to Gulag.Again and again every polish unit meet the same fate.
Who was responsible? acting commander of polish Home Army,Tadeusz Komorowski.Formally commander was still Stefan Rowecki - from 1943 in german concentration camp.
If somebody would do somethink supid,that would be him./Komorowski,not Rowecki/
P.S if you want polish goverment which die for USA,then you must take polish goverment from 2019.Poles in 1944 really never was that naive.
Nationalist from 1942 planned to take Eastern germany not becouse they were stupid,but becouse after USA joined war they knew,that germany must lost.Now,after beating USA take and with knowledge about Germany 2015 power,they would try save existing borders - as realists.Becouse in 1942 they knew,that Germany arleady lost,and in 1944 against Germany 2015 they would also knew, that victory is impossible.
In other worlds,if polish goverment really continue war,nationalist,farmers and socialists would form new one and made peace - not becouse they love Germany,but becouse they were realists.
Last edited:
- Status