Not just Asuryan. He has a staff thats blessed by Lileath, and IIRC at least one retelling has the godess directly feed him more power to pull it off.
He does have the Moon Staff, but the way it's described, calling that divine aid is a bit like saying that anyone wielding the Staff of Volans has Volans' aid. It's a power source, a battery, not a helping hand. The only detailed description of the battle I've read (from William King's Bane of Malekith) states more or less the same.

The Deliverance of Itza is perhaps a third place runner up for most powerful spell, and wins insofar that it was something done on the spot and cast after death even, while the others were massive rituals with hundreds of casters (Vortex) or took a month after centuries of buildup (Great Ritual).
Kroak wasn't quite dead when casting the Deliverance, he died during and it went off afterwards (although dead was perhaps a bit of a fuzzy state given reality was cracking at the seams at that point).

Eh. The Sundering of Ulthuan wasn't a spell that shattered Ulthuan. That was just a side effect of the Vortex being undone and Ulthuan breaking apart as a result of the magical backlash.
The Sundering was absolutely a spell of some description. It was Caledor and his friends backhanding Malekith for trying to undo their work, not a mere consequence of said undoing.
 
The Sundering was absolutely a spell of some description. It was Caledor and his friends backhanding Malekith for trying to undo their work, not a mere consequence of said undoing.
Is it? Because I always understood it as the magical backlash of the Vortex being partially undone. Caledor and friends deliberately trying to sink pieces of Ulthuan sounds a bit far fetched.
 
I wasn't talking specificaly abaout a necromancer, but isn't stuff like telekinensis part of Arcane magic? So anybody can do it?
Ah, I thought you were chipping in on the Nagash vs. Sigmar tangent the thread was partially on, my bad. As for telekinesis, I don't know. Mages aren't all tossing rocks like catapults though, so even if telekinesis is a thing for all mages, it's probably constrained to the small stuff.
 
Is it? Because I always understood it as the magical backlash of the Vortex being partially undone. Caledor and friends deliberately trying to sink pieces of Ulthuan sounds a bit far fetched.
They weren't deliberately trying to sink Ulthuan no, but the way it's described is "Mighty figures clad in light sent the surge of mystical power tumbling back to Nagarythe. The trapped mages of the Isle of the Dead refused to let their work be undone". Which is less "was undoing the Vortex and accidentally broke Ulthuan" and more "Caledor and friends bounced my spell back at me (and broke Ulthuan in the process)".
 
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Ah, I thought you were chipping in on the Nagash vs. Sigmar tangent the thread was partially on, my bad. As for telekinesis, I don't know. Mages aren't all tossing rocks like catapults though, so even if telekinesis is a thing for all mages, it's probably constrained to the small stuff.

I was chipping in, but i was expanding on the whole "mage vs magic immunity" stuff.

And speaking of magic, when we return from the Raid. I am thinking we should try to develop a spell in the next downtime turn. I was torn between Conjure Minor Wind Elemental or an Aqshy based spell (possibly a support spell for our Swordmasters similar to Rise from Ashes or Hearts of Fire).
 
I was chipping in, but i was expanding on the whole "mage vs magic immunity" stuff.

And speaking of magic, when we return from the Raid. I am thinking we should try to develop a spell in the next downtime turn. I was torn between Conjure Minor Wind Elemental or an Aqshy based spell (possibly a support spell for our Swordmasters similar to Rise from Ashes or Hearts of Fire).
I think we should try to create a Battle Magic spell that summons a fire elemental. That would gives us some serious firepower which we lack. We saw during the escort mission that enemy with ranged capabilities can cause immense damages, and we already have plenty of support spells.
 
Feats are a fundamentally garbage means of assessing this kind of thing. Taking feats as sacrosanct is the kind of shit that leads to superhero vs debates where the Flash can at the same time think and react in attoseconds, yet also gets tripped up by Deathstroke sticking a foot around a street corner three times in the same issue.

It is far, far more fruitful to consider these things in the context of the wider narrative they sit in, and that requires acknowledging that, for example, necromancy in warhammer has a strong trend of development over time as wizards like Van Hel iterated on Nagash's discoveries, and that Nagash's story is one of a great threat long past at his height, when he did great things from a position of partial rulership over Khemri and the advantages that came with it, but who was lessened and beaten down the ages. Meanwhile Kemmler's story is a much more recent one of a genius prodigy at this vile art who terrorised the land with a mastery of the black arts that built on and superceded all who came before.

Thing is those narratives don't seem like in anyway a given or natural reading of the source material, and that's even discounting EoT. For one where in the army books or any material is it ever written that Kemmler surpassed Nagash as the one superceded "all who came before". Similarly you seem to make a lot of one spell having the name of one necromancer other then Nagash. I could just as well point out to how necromancers centuries and even millenia past Nagash still obsessively cling to his creations and books long, long after the Great necromancer has past. See for example Vlad with his ring and book of Nagash.

If you have more fun viewing Nagash as the threat long past, as the teacher who had long since been surpassed by his students then by all means, I'm not one to gainsay what makes the game more fun for others, but that doesn't strike me as either a given or even a likely reading of the source material.

Heck even the High Elves' own army books attempts to give Teclis' own prowess high praise by comparing him to Nagash and not, for example, Kemmler.
Nope. Aenarion and Indraugnir fought four greater daemons at once; even if we assume Indraugnir is worth two himself, that still leaves Aenarion throwing down with two greater daemons and winning. He also didn't die in the process; he was sorely wounded, but he limped away from that fight with enough strength to fly half the length of Ulthuan and walk from the shores of the Blighted Isle to the Shrine of Khaine at their heart. (He might also still be alive - he's assumed to be dead because he never turned up since, but they never did find a body, and you know what that means with dramatically significant people...)

And yeah, if you stripped him of his panoply and mauled him, he'd be a lot less of a threat. The same is true of Sigmar though, and frankly, even in bare-handed wrestling, Aenarion would cream Sigmar. One's an anointed superhuman demigod who slew a daemon lord with a single throw of a hunting spear, the other's a mortal human. A very buff and skilled mortal man, the guy's a Conan expy, but he wasn't superhuman. That is, again, the point of Sigmar; he was a man before he was a god.

When making that equivalence I was referring to how Nagash was without gear, down a hand and weakened by his resurrection when he fought Sigmar, being down all of his gear, down a hand and weakened by his resurrection and even then Sigmar needed Nagash's own creation, the crown, to beat him.

Also Sigmar has accomplishments such as fighting against a named daemon of Khorne, Skulltaker, for three days without rest and winning, scaling the Ulricsberg, going through the flame of Ulric and coming out unburnt and more that cast serious doubt on him not being superhuman. I'd say it's even hard to imagine how someone who wasn't superhuman could possibly win against an Everchosen even with Ghal Maraz. Chaos Lords are explicitly and blantantly superhuman and the Everchosen is the most powerful of them all, with Archaon having accomplishments such as strangling a bloodthirster to death with his own whip. Even with Ghal Maraz it's hard to imagine how someone could avoid being killed, let alone win, against such a foe via the superhuman Chaos Lord killing them so quickly they wouldn't even have time to lift Ghal Maraz.

Either way the original point was that reducing the defeat of even a much weakened Nagash to Sigmar as Nagash "getting his teeth kicked in by a guy with a very shiny hammer" ignores how that guy with a shiny hammer also has a history of inflicting such defeats on some of the other most powerful characters in Warhammer.
 
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I will admit I'm not really fond of the part of warhammer where wizards and sorcerers can flex such utter dominance.

I want characters like Tyrion and Ungrim and Kroq-Gar to be more common! I want human warriors to regularly become so fantastical, so favoured by heaven, than when these discussions come up you don't get 'non-magical' combatants dismissed out of hand. Why does Brettonia and Chaos monopolise that space?
 
I think we should try to create a Battle Magic spell that summons a fire elemental. That would gives us some serious firepower which we lack. We saw during the escort mission that enemy with ranged capabilities can cause immense damages, and we already have plenty of support spells.

I mean, we have mostly support spells that heal. Maybe something that gives a power boost to our Swordmasters could be useful, like temporary super strenght and toughness.

Summoning a Greater Elemental would he really good, but i think the Minor Elementals would be better from a downtime and roleplay perspective.

Fanriel is used to having luxuries like servants and aides, luxuries she can't afford anymore. Having them again would probably help her mental state by giving her a sense of normalicy, and also help the logistics of the company since we can have aides without the need to hire or pay them.

Speaking of hiring, before leaving Erengard we should totaly check if we can find some recruits in the Elven Enclave. It could be our last chance to find other elves easly.
 
I will admit I'm not really fond of the part of warhammer where wizards and sorcerers can flex such utter dominance.

I want characters like Tyrion and Ungrim and Kroq-Gar to be more common! I want human warriors to regularly become so fantastical, so favoured by heaven, than when these discussions come up you don't get 'non-magical' combatants dismissed out of hand. Why does Brettonia and Chaos monopolise that space?
Warriors can be dangerous and powerful, but at the end of the day none of them can create a mountain range, kill and reanimate a whole country or destroy and entire army with just a few words. They're inherently limited in the damage they can do in way mages aren't.

I mean, we have mostly support spells that heal. Maybe something that gives a power boost to our Swordmasters could be useful, like temporary super strenght and toughness.
I'm not saying that wouldn't be useful, but I think that long ranged firepower would be better. Our team is already very good in close quarters and we can keep them healthy. Meanwhile, we don't have a good ranged option if the enemy decides to stand back and shower us with projectiles.

Summoning a Greater Elemental would he really good, but i think the Minor Elementals would be better from a downtime and roleplay perspective.

Fanriel is used to having luxuries like servants and aides, luxuries she can't afford anymore. Having them again would probably help her mental state by giving her a sense of normalicy, and also help the logistics of the company since we can have aides without the need to hire or pay them.
I don't think it would be that useful, at least not to the point of justifying not investing in more powerful magic first. In her last 2 missions, Fanriel saw that she lacked some serious firepower. The Choas marauders showered her with javelins from afar (hurting several sword masters) and the Prophet had to clear the way for the debarking troops with a fire elemental. The lesson she should take is that she lacks proper shock an awe tactics.
 
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Warriors can be dangerous and powerful, but at the end of the day none of them can create a mountain range, kill and reanimate a whole country or destroy and entire army with just a few words.

But why is that the case?

Magic isn't real, and elves aren't real, and grail knights and chaos warriors and Sigmar isn't real; magic can only do so because the writers let them; non-mages only can't rise to such heights because the writers decide they don't.

In fact…. Sigmar exists! He's proof men don't need magic, to fight those cataclysmic mages in even footing….


….it's just… no one else is allowed to even touch his shadow, ever again.

Even at the end of the days, when all was lost, when the greatest mortal champions in the world step up, (including the dwarves!) …. They're empowered with the Winds of Magic!
 
I'm not saying that wouldn't be useful, but I think that long ranged firepower would be better. Our team is already very good in close quarters and we can keep them healthy. Meanwhile, we don't have a good ranged option if the enemy decides to stand back and shower us with projectiles.
I don't think it would be that useful, at least not to the point of justifying not investing in more powerful magic first. In her last 2 missions, Fanriel saw that she lacked some serious firepower. The Choas marauders showered her with javelins from afar (hurting several sword masters) and the Prophet had to clear the way for the debarking troops with a fire elemental. The lesson she should take is that she lacks proper shock an awe tactics.

I understand your reasoning, and you make really good points. If we develop a "shock and awe" spell i think Conjuring a Greater Wind Elemental of Aqshy would be better than just creating a really big explosion.
 
I will admit I'm not really fond of the part of warhammer where wizards and sorcerers can flex such utter dominance.

I want characters like Tyrion and Ungrim and Kroq-Gar to be more common! I want human warriors to regularly become so fantastical, so favoured by heaven, than when these discussions come up you don't get 'non-magical' combatants dismissed out of hand. Why does Brettonia and Chaos monopolise that space?

Kroak was killed by Bloodthirsters, Nagash was killed by Alcadizzar and Sigmar, Vlad was killed by the Grand Theogonist etc,etc. I don't think Warhammer has a particularly glaring favoritism towards wizards over warriors.
 
But why is that the case?

Magic isn't real, and elves aren't real, and grail knights and chaos warriors and Sigmar isn't real; magic can only do so because the writers let them; non-mages only can't rise to such heights because the writers decide they don't.
It's much easier to justify a mage creating mountains than a warrior. At the end of the day, i think it's simply personal tastes. Warriors exist irl, that's less exotic and fun. Mages don't, and magic is imo just cooler than hitting people real hard with a sword (yes, I'm caricaturing).

I understand your reasoning, and you make really good points. If we develop a "shock and awe" spell i think Conjuring a Greater Wind Elemental of Aqshy would be better than just creating a really big explosion.
Yes, absolutely. A big explosion don't stay on the battlefield and can't obey orders.
 
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Kroak was killed by Bloodthirsters, Nagash was killed by Alcadizzar and Sigmar, Vlad was killed by the Grand Theogonist etc,etc. I don't think Warhammer has a particularly glaring favoritism towards wizards over warriors.

But when people go through the most terrifically powerful of warhammer beings, and start talking- as of now- of comparisons of might and power…

Well, they seem to all be spell casters.
 
But when people go through the most terrifically powerful of warhammer beings, and start talking- as of now- of comparisons of might and power…

Well, they seem to all be spell casters.

This discussion started out of who specifically are the most powerful wizards in Warhammer though, not who are the most powerful characters period.
Who else is among the contenders for strongest spellcasters on the planet? I have some ideas, but i want to know what you think.

Who could say who is more powerful between Aenarion and Kairos or Gilles and Morathi?
 
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Even at the end of the days, when all was lost, when the greatest mortal champions in the world step up, (including the dwarves!) …. They're empowered with the Winds of Magic
I recall Dwarfs cannot use Winds of Magic because of their physiology and they turn to stone every time to use it as we see what happens to their Chaos counterparts.

End Times forgot that detail.
 
But why is that the case?

Magic isn't real, and elves aren't real, and grail knights and chaos warriors and Sigmar isn't real; magic can only do so because the writers let them; non-mages only can't rise to such heights because the writers decide they don't.
Broadly speaking, because it's a wargame and based on the units that exist, a sufficient answer to powerful warriors needs to be "just shoot them," and for various reasons it's easier to accept "the wizards can do continent-shaping feats but if you get close enough you can still Just Shoot Them" than "The Warrior can do continent shaping feats but if you get close enough you can still Just Shoot Them."

There are indeed settings where warriors can reshape a mountain range the swing of a sword. Warhammer Fantasy deliberately occupies a different niche, and as basically the only prominent setting occupying it's specific niche, you're going to face opposition to "it should be in a different niche, actually."
 
Another point about the whole should we learn magic thing is that literally everyone else in the team is a swordmaster of hoeth. If we need something stabbed, they can stab it about as well as we can. Meanwhile, fanriel is the only wizard in the gang, and being a wizard is literally her weakest attribute. That's a pretty obvious weak spot that we should look into strengthening.
 
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Yes, absolutely. A big explosion don't stay on the battlefield and can't obey orders.

What do you think instead of my idea of making contacts in the Elven Quarter next turn?

It could be our last chance to find new elven recruits or retainers, it is possible we find other elves to recruit later. But it would be hard.

Also, if the Trolls araound Erengard are still a problem. We should totaly go hunting them, it would help with money and also increase our reputation.
 
This discussion started out of who specifically are the most powerful wizards in Warhammer though, not who are the most powerful characters period.

Fair enough. Serves me right for not reading the full backlog.

Broadly speaking, because it's a wargame and based on the units that exist, a sufficient answer to powerful warriors needs to be "just shoot them," and for various reasons it's easier to accept "the wizards can do continent-shaping feats but if you get close enough you can still Just Shoot Them" than "The Warrior can do continent shaping feats but if you get close enough you can still Just Shoot Them."

Just… make them cost a lot?

You can't really 'just shoot Nagash' or Kroak or Malekith or Kairos either; not only are they all either natively resilient and/ or normally extremely guarded, but they could just use their magic to… stop you, more or less. They may not have the greatest melee stats*, but there's very little from stopping them from either hiding in a unit of bodyguards, or just… using their magic to ensure you never reach them before you chew through their whole army first.

I don't really see how that's a thing.

*(barring Malekith)
 
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Just teach the next champion of the empire shadow clone and rasegan and warrior supremacy over wizards will be restored dattebayo

Yes, I do find this discussion silly, how could you tell?

Divinely empowered warrior champions clashing are actually thematically the superiorest pivotal pieces of the Warhammer writers, so I don't get why people are complaining. Yes lord kroak can banish a invasion, nagash can snuff a country life out. But when the chips are down, and it's not something that happened 'a long time ago, in a continent far away' Warhammer writers will polish up a Conan with serial numbers filled off to bash evil faction leader head. And he brings his friends too, unlike nerds.
 
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