Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Fair enough, I stand corrected on a detail. The greater point still holds.
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Mercenary Mage Quest: Asur Dogs of War in Warhammer Fantasy
- Thread starter Blackout
- Start date
- Fantasy
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
So we're not discounting only EoT, but also 8th edition. Okay.
So were the Slann relying on the Geomantic web for major geomancy as well as Caledor relying on a whole boat load of aid to cast the Vortex. Relying on an external power source to cast his greatest spell isn't something that is unique to Nagash, but it seems pretty clear to me that it takes a lot more then just a great deal of Warpstone to enslave all vampires, create one of Warhammer's most famous magic items or create the greatest reanimation spell ever seen in Warhammer, as shown by how other people with a substantial amount of Warpstone don't seem to manage nearly as impressive feats. It's like saying that the Slann aren't that big a deal because anyone could rearrange continents with the geomantic web.
This is just silly. Calling Sigmar a guy with a shiny hammer is like calling Aenarion a guy with a sparkly sword. We're talking about someone who could take on an Everchosen as well as the Blood god's sacred executioner in one on one and beat both of them.
Furthermore Nagash is mentioned to have explicitly been weakened in his fight against Sigmar not only from his resurrection as well as from being devoid from all of his magical equipment but also from being down a hand, and even as a lethargic, naked amputee he was still considered to have been one of the toughest fights of Sigmar's life, of which there's some stiff competition.
And even then he was still capable of putting another curse on all of vampire kind.
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Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Probably the closest is Vlad using Warpstone from Mordheim to kick off the Vampire Wars with a ritual to raise all the dead of Sylvania?
ALL great warhammer magic relies on an outside power source. Warhammer, as a setting, has external magic. Magic is a thing external to the caster that they manipulate. No external power source, no magic. The thing that separates the great from the merely good is not access to such a power source, but the ability to not literally explode when you tap it.
ALL wizards have oodles of power in the middle of a storm of magic. Only the skilled and powerful survive being in one.
ALL wizards have oodles of power in the middle of a storm of magic. Only the skilled and powerful survive being in one.
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Imperious
Without the sun of my life
And yet still not capable of just recreating the Von Carstein ring like Nagash did, which one would assume he could if all it took to craft it is a bunch of Warpstone.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
For what it's worth, 7th edition Vampire Counts does have a sidebar on page 60 that basically says that the Von Carstein Ring is more likely a copy of the ring Nagash presented to Vashanesh than the real deal, but 7th edition VC in general was weirdly insistent that Vlad definitely wasn't Vashanesh.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
You're missing the point. Most great magics in warhammer have involved external resources, yes, but this complicates any like-for-like comparison. You can't compare Nagash's Great Ritual to Kemmler's grandest works and thereby conclude that Nagash was obviously better, because that only tells you what Nagash can do given those resources; we don't know what Kemmler can do with equivalent resources, because he never had them.
But we do know that when denied external resources beyond what they could carry on their travels, Nagash had a habit of getting beaten into the dirt, while Kemmler at worst had to play the, 'dangerous ritual to force a draw at great cost to myself' card, and that Kemmler's mechanical claim to fame was knowing Necromancy But I Made It Better.
It's really not, to be blunt. Sigmar was a mighty hero with a legendary weapon who could tangle with an Everchosen as a climactic challenge. Aenarion was a demigod with a divine weapon who could and did prevail when greater daemons ganged up on him. There's no comparing the two.
Sigmar was a great hero, but he was, fundamentally, human. That's kind of the point of him! He wasn't a Primarch or anything, he was a mortal man who, through acts of courage and brotherhood, became the foundational culture hero of a nation who went on to deify him.
Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
Also, Nagash did not have that much outside resources for his big coups. He was driven from Khemri, and then had to hole up in some hidden mountains whose only useful property were great warpstone deposits. From there he had, what, a few primitive tribes worshiping him and some graves. And he built that up into a powerbase rivaling the whole of Nehekhara (though admittedly that took centuries).
Another thing that makes Nagash stand out is creativity and spellcrafting. Most powerful mages are noted to have learned this and recovered ancient lore that, while Nagash had the basics of dark magic and some training about calling on gods of the dead, and from these fragments developed an entirely new form of magic, and proved such a genius at it to the the point where millennia later theres fights over any scrap of his notes.
Another thing that makes Nagash stand out is creativity and spellcrafting. Most powerful mages are noted to have learned this and recovered ancient lore that, while Nagash had the basics of dark magic and some training about calling on gods of the dead, and from these fragments developed an entirely new form of magic, and proved such a genius at it to the the point where millennia later theres fights over any scrap of his notes.
Blackout
Fed By Comments
- Location
- Who knows?
For what it's worth, the 6th and 7th edition Armybooks also compare Teclis to Nagash, though they merely say that he is his equal rather than "approaching him". They also state that Teclis is unsurpassed by "any other living creature", implicitly saying that Nagash is also unsurpassed by anyone alive.
But, ultimately, a certain level of salt must be taken with such statements. One may observe that Bretonnian, Vampire Count and High Elf lore all individually claim that Grail Knights, Blood Knights and Dragon Princes are the best cavalry in the world. Bonus points for Blood Knights lore specifically saying that they are better than Grail Knights and then in the Knights of Bretonnia novels a newly-minted Grail Knight immediately dunks on a centuries-old Blood Knight.
Imperious
Without the sun of my life
At that point you may as well say that you can't compare any Warhammer spellcasters at all though. After all, who's to say that hedge witch casting her first catnip couldn't surpass Morathi if she too had a coven of powerful sorceresses at her beck and call?
By feats Nagash is one of the most accomplished casters in Warhammer.
You mean Aenarion, fighting alongside the most powerful dragon of his age could do so, while killing both him and Indraugnir in the process, and that's while wielding the Widowmaker and the Dragon Armor. Take away Indraugnir, strip Aenarion down of the sword and armor, cut off one of his hands and give him a concussion before throwing him into the ring and I dare say he would have done a lot worse then he ended up doing.
And that's not even getting into Sigmar needing an artifact created by Nagash in order to pull even that much off.
I feel It coming from the High Elves army book actually strengthens the point. As you say army books tend to flatter their own factions but even the High Elves' own army books at most go as far as to state that Teclis is the equal of Nagash rather then his superior.
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- Pronouns
- He
Another candidate for the most powerful magical working ever is also the Sundering of Ulthuan, which did considerable damage to the floating continent and created the Black Arcs, which still float thousands of years later.
- Location
- Massuchusetts
Eh. The Sundering of Ulthuan wasn't a spell that shattered Ulthuan. That was just a side effect of the Vortex being undone and Ulthuan breaking apart as a result of the magical backlash.
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- Location
- Washington
The nascent Druchii may have made USE of that backlash but the fact that they were immediately prepared to sail off a number of those breaking-apart-chunks to another continent strongly implies that it was not side effects alone.
Xexilf
Oblivion Sempiternum Daemonis
This was IIRC somewhat mitigated by the Black Pyramid, which is one of the reasons he had the thing built. It was much connected to him specifically, but it also attracted the winds of magic in general, meaning Nehekhara, or at least Khemri, has significantly more magic present than other points of the same latitude.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Feats are a fundamentally garbage means of assessing this kind of thing. Taking feats as sacrosanct is the kind of shit that leads to superhero vs debates where the Flash can at the same time think and react in attoseconds, yet also gets tripped up by Deathstroke sticking a foot around a street corner three times in the same issue.
It is far, far more fruitful to consider these things in the context of the wider narrative they sit in, and that requires acknowledging that, for example, necromancy in warhammer has a strong trend of development over time as wizards like Van Hel iterated on Nagash's discoveries, and that Nagash's story is one of a great threat long past at his height, when he did great things from a position of partial rulership over Khemri and the advantages that came with it, but who was lessened and beaten down the ages. Meanwhile Kemmler's story is a much more recent one of a genius prodigy at this vile art who terrorised the land with a mastery of the black arts that built on and superceded all who came before.
Nope. Aenarion and Indraugnir fought four greater daemons at once; even if we assume Indraugnir is worth two himself, that still leaves Aenarion throwing down with two greater daemons and winning. He also didn't die in the process; he was sorely wounded, but he limped away from that fight with enough strength to fly half the length of Ulthuan and walk from the shores of the Blighted Isle to the Shrine of Khaine at their heart. (He might also still be alive - he's assumed to be dead because he never turned up since, but they never did find a body, and you know what that means with dramatically significant people...)
And yeah, if you stripped him of his panoply and mauled him, he'd be a lot less of a threat. The same is true of Sigmar though, and frankly, even in bare-handed wrestling, Aenarion would cream Sigmar. One's an anointed superhuman demigod who slew a daemon lord with a single throw of a hunting spear, the other's a mortal human. A very buff and skilled mortal man, the guy's a Conan expy, but he wasn't superhuman. That is, again, the point of Sigmar; he was a man before he was a god.
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Obviously feats and such are garbage. The only REAL way to judge who is stronger is to buy overpriced miniatures, carefully paint them, and pit them head to head on a field of green fabric we pretend is grass.
A very big muscular shirtless guy with a very shiny hammer who pounded his bony ass thoroughly and mercilessly.
Sigmar vs Nagash is just He-Man and Skeletor in Warhammer Fantasy. But more Grimdark and less Fabulous.
This He-Man was also magic-proof from wearing Skeletor's fancy crown, mind.
- Location
- California
Bah. If you can't think of how to deal with somebody immune to magic, then you're a terribly uncreative mage. Just ask Malus Darkblade how much his amulet of magic immunity helped him against the bray shaman who proceeded to cast a bunch of self buffs and cast fist.
The Lore of Beasts and the Wilds is sadly a bit better at self-buffs than Necromancy. And I mean, come on. Trying to outswole Sigmar when you don't even have a muscle (or both arms) is a doomed prospect.
And that Nagash was distracted by Sigmar's abs too as well. I mean who wouldn't?
Nagash: "Oh my me, you can grind meat on th-" *gets smashed in the face by Ghal Maraz*
If you want to defeat somebody with magic immunity, just use magic to lift a giant boulder and drop it on their head. Or drop them into a chasm, let's see if they are immune to gravity too.
Necromancy does not do Earth-Bending. And sadly, Ghal Maraz probably beats boulder-drop.