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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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I mean even if Corinth basically conquers and annexes Kerkyra (not bloody likely) they aren't going to be a threat until after they end their war with Athens, which is going to be... some time from now. Just in time for them to get pissed with Spartan hegemony and start a new war against their former allies...
 
HastyGaming said:
I don't agree at all. Kerkyra remaining opposed to both Athens and Korinthos but unaligned from us is the very least of what is acceptable to Eretria because if they fall under the sway of either we're in massive trouble in the Adriatic. To such an extent that we may not even be able to hold what we have.
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Can you explain why exactly we'd be in massive trouble in the Adriatic? Because that makes less sense to me than it meaning trouble for us if Kerkyra were to fall under Eretrian sway.

As of right now, neither Athenai nor Korinthos have a motive to mess with us. What's more, currently Athens/the Delian League and Korinthos/The Peloponnesian League are way too busy beating each other up to seek conflict with Eretria, a city which has given offense to neither.

Take Kerkyra and this will change. Kerkyra is strategically relevant to them - they will want to take it from us, unless we agree to ally with one side, making an enemy of the other. Your efforts to prevent disaster will be precisely what causes disaster in the first place.

And that's before we take into account that bringing Kerkyra into our sphere of influence is far more easily said than done.
 
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There we go.

Athens has a huge appetite for grain, including Eretria's grain. If Korinth seeks to use Kerkyra to interfere with our shipping of that grain, Athens must respond, retaining the great power balance in the Adriatic.
So long as that balance endures without our direct involvement, we are free to partake of opportunities to enhance our position in the Adriatic.

However, should we seek to interfere with Kerkyra ourselves, we cast our lot, and spend our freedom of action. We would be the ones to state, by our meddling, that we intend to defend Athens grain, and thus free Athens itself from that burden, at our cost.

The route to Eretrian dominance in the Adriatic lies in avoiding Kerkyra politics, not controlling them.
 
@Cetashwayo
May we establish a Sacred Armory? We've got a lot of psilloi or skirmishers too poor to afford their own panoply. But we are quite wealthy. Could we not produce and maintain some sets of armor in reserve so that, if necessary, some of our psilloi might serve as hoplites?
 
Driven by Apathy said:
Aren't you confusing Drakonia and Antipatria here? It's the Antipatrids that want to take diplomatic action to hopefully contain the Syracuse situation.

Drakonia want to effect regime change in Kerkyra, which I fear might prove a dangerous bit of overreach. I could very well see it backfiring worse than doing nothing.

And even if we're successful... what then? Neither Athens, nor Korinth, nor, in the long run, Sparta, will just live a Eretria aligned Kerkyra be. I've seen the development in Kerkyra called an existential threat, but to tell you all the truth, I think the real threat here is that we might be drawn into a costly foreign adventure while simultaneously drawing the gaze of powers bigger than us.

The risks of intervention are even greater than the risks of doing nothing, IMHO.
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No, Obander is distinctly unimpressive, meanwhile the Drakonid candidate is seen as skilled and respected by his fellows.

And I doubt we'd not be involved in Sicily, as most of Italia is, including our ally Thurii and our own ally the Sikeliote's involved, we can't not be involved ourselves, even if it's to a lesser extent than the Antipatrid slates.

The Antipatrids want to get involved heavily in Hellenic diplomacy in Sicily, with a man who was described a while ago as having overly long speeches, sometimes being an outright bore, and is himself growing older and older and less youthful and vigorous. That's not a good combo for going into a cutthroat political sphere.
 
Ironanvil1 said:
The route to Eretrian dominance in the Adriatic lies in avoiding Kerkyra politics, not controlling them.
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With the added benefit of having a chance to reconcile with Taras, as opposed to what would happen if we were to indirectly side with Athens in the Peloponnesian War (Sparta trying to mobilize its colony Taras against us, and probably succeeding).
McLuvin said:
No, Obander is distinctly unimpressive, meanwhile the Drakonid candidate is seen as skilled and respected by his fellows.

And I doubt we'd not be involved in Sicily, as most of Italia is, including our ally Thurii and our own ally the Sikeliote's involved, we can't not be involved ourselves, even if it's to a lesser extent than the Antipatrid slates.
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You say you doubt we'd not be involved in Sicily, but the agendas of the Demes Drakonia and Antipatria say otherwise. It's Drakonia who would neglect Sicily and the Italiotes in favor of courting danger in Hellas.

I like the rest of their foreign policy, but that's an absolutely dealbreaker.
 
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Satar said:
@Cetashwayo
May we establish a Sacred Armory? We've got a lot of psilloi or skirmishers too poor to afford their own panoply. But we are quite wealthy. Could we not produce and maintain some sets of armor in reserve so that, if necessary, some of our psilloi might serve as hoplites?
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It does not seem very pointful for the expense it would garner. The city already pays a lot of money to pay for the equipment and boarding of the ekdromoi and exoria, it isn't exactly going to add even more expense on top of that.
 
Professor Vesca said:
instead I would vote we establish the colony at Issas, and deal with the pirates ourselves.
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That is not what your vote does though, for the anti-pirate campaign and the colony in Issa you have to vote Demos Drakonia for Xenoparakletor.

@Cetashwayo Why does the Demos Drakonia feel that the issue of Kerkyra is more important than one diplomatic mission to the west? Is securing Kerkyra from likely Athenian influence (since Korinthos fleet was beaten only a few years ago) really more important than sending the Xenoparakletor to either the Sicilian Congress, the Italiotes or Taras?
 
Ironanvil1 said:
Athens must respond, retaining the great power balance in the Adriatic.
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Which we absolutely don't want, we don't want either powers in the Adriatic, and if Athens has to come out here, they will bring in a government that they likely control. Thus, if we don't do it ourselves, we invite challenge to the Adriatic dominance we need.

Not only that, it this utterly ignores the Illyrians, who need to be put down, and who have grown bold enough to even attack our nations trade itself.
 
Indeed. Cementing our position in Italia, such that any power of Sicily or Hellas that seeks to come against cannot find local allies or support, is, I'd contend, a far better hedge against potential issues from the Peloponnesian Wars than lunging at Kerkyra.
 
Spacegnom said:
@Cetashwayo Why does the Demos Drakonia feel that the issue of Kerkyra is more important than one diplomatic mission to the west? Is securing Kerkyra from likely Athenian influence (since Korinthos fleet was beaten only a few years ago) really more important than sending some to either Sicilian Congress, the Italiotes or Taras?
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The Athenians are far more likely to get involved in Italian and Sicilian politics than Sparta. There is a real fear that if Athenai is able to secure Kerkyra's democratic faction to regain power, combined with the potential of them campaigning in Western Hellas, they'd use that as a springboard to go west, and right now Demos Drakonia would prefer to ensure that even if Kerkyra stays on Athenai's side it does not fully join the Delian League and start contributing ships, tribute, and harbors for Athenai to use in case it wants to get involved with the Sikeliotes.
 
Driven by Apathy said:
You say you doubt we'd not be involved in Sicily, but the agendas of the Demes Drakonia and Antipatria say otherwise. It's Drakonia who would neglect Sicily in favor of courting danger in Hellas.

I like the rest of their foreign policy, but that's an absolutely dealbreaker
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So, you say we wouldn't send anyone over to a massive meeting that includes all of Italia, two of our allies and includes our interest. Whilst it's not the focus, I have no doubt they'll send someone to see what's going on, and Obander, if he is chosen, fails to inspire any amount of confidence that he could do any good there even if it is supposed to be the focus of his policy.
 
McLuvin said:
Which we absolutely don't want, we don't want either powers in the Adriatic, and if Athens has to come out here, they will bring in a government that they likely control. Thus, if we don't do it ourselves, we invite challenge to the Adriatic dominance we need.

Not only that, it this utterly ignores the Illyrians, who need to be put down, and who have grown bold enough to even attack our nations trade itself.
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The potential issue with Kerkyra is that they might interfere with our lucrative grain sales to Athens.
So long as all parties are embroiled with each other, it's the actors with freedom to exploit local opportunities, such as Eretria, that are going to be able to expand influence in the Adriatic, not a Korinth focused on the might of the Athenian fleet, an Athens trying to react to Peloponnesian moves across the length of the season, or a Kerkyra caught betwixt the two.
 
McLuvin said:
Which we absolutely don't want, we don't want either powers in the Adriatic, and if Athens has to come out here, they will bring in a government that they likely control. Thus, if we don't do it ourselves, we invite challenge to the Adriatic dominance we need.
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And you honestly think if we do involve ourselves we don't?

That seems, frankly, utterly absurd. Meddle with Kerkyra, and we're meddling with both Athens and Korinthos, and with neither of them in a good way. Considering how frigging volatile the Athenians can be, that's not something I want to risk.

Let them fight over Kerkyra. Let them bleed for it. Quite possibly, Kerkyra will not remain under the dominance of either for long anyway.
 
[X] Xenoparakletor: Athenagoras Symmachos (Demos Drakonia)
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
 
If the future risk of an Athenian aligned Kerkyra is Athenian interference in Sicily and Italy, that's frankly yet more reason to choose the Antipatrid route and cement our positions there before the wealth and power of Athens can possibly be applied.
 
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
 
Ironanvil1 said:
The potential issue with Kerkyra is that they might interfere with our lucrative grain sales to Athens.
So long as all parties are embroiled with each other, it's the actors with freedom to exploit local opportunities, such as Eretria, that are going to be able to expand influence in the Adriatic, not a Korinth focused on the might of the Athenian fleet, an Athens trying to react to Peloponnesian moves across the length of the season, or a Kerkyra caught betwixt the two.
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I disagree, there is, per word of god a real risk the Athens night shove their nose into the West, in fact they did so in OTL and there is serious fear they'd do so TTL, it's not just the Adriatic, namely the potential trade routes we want that Athens may want as well, but all of Italia, how long until they start messing around with the power balance we want to preserve? Stopping us from doing what we want to do with the Dauni, Adriatic and internally.
Driven by Apathy said:
And you honestly think if we do involve ourselves we don't?

That seems, frankly, utterly absurd. Meddle with Kerkyra, and we're meddling with both Athens and Korinthos, and with neither of them in a good way. Considering how frigging volatile the Athenians can be, that's not something I want to risk.

Let them fight over Kerkyra. Let them bleed for it. Quite possibly, Kerkyra will not remain under the dominance of either for long anyway.
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Except Korithinos cannot challenge Athens, it's already lost several times. It won't be a fight, it'll be a quick defeat, and then the pro interventionist Athens might turn its eyes West, as it did IOTL and as in universe peoples, with feet on the ground, also fear.
 
[X] Proboulos: Kyros Gennadios (Demos Antipatria)
[X] Xenoparakletor: Obander Eupraxis (Demos Antipatria)


Here me O Eretrians! Men speak of the need to go out and defeat the new oligarchs of Kekyra. To what end? And for what purpose? We have no real quarrels with these men, though they may be friendly to our rivals Korinthos. Having just succeeded in overcoming the Democrats in a period of stasis and civil war, they are in little state to do much if any harm to us, and in being friendly to Korinthos invoke the wrath of Athenai and Delian League upon themselves. Indeed Athenai even now is hosting the defeated and exiled members of Kekyra. Hellas though is not where we must focus our attention, for our foe Syrakousai is again rearing its head and its provocations must be answered. Wise Obander sees the need to reestablish closer ties with the Italiotes and Sikeliotes to oppose a resurgent Syrakousai, while also seeking to woo the Tarentines that even after our holy peace expires, we shall not be at each others throats.
 
McLuvin said:
I disagree, there is, per word of god a real risk the Athens night shove their nose into the West, in fact they did so in OTL and there is serious fear they'd do so TTL, it's not just the Adriatic, namely the potential trade routes we want that Athens may want as well, but all of Italia, how long until they start messing around with the power balance we want to preserve? Stopping us from doing what we want to do with the Dauni, Adriatic and internally.

Except Korithinos cannot challenge Athens, it's already lost several times. It won't be a fight, it'll be a quick defeat, and then the pro interventionist Athens might turn its eyes West, as it did IOTL and as in universe peoples, with feet on the ground, also fear.
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You're being incoherent. If Korinth can't stop Athens head on, what makes you think we can?

The solution is instead to leverage our pre-existing advantage in Italia and Sicily to set our stamp on how events there will proceed, unopposed by Athens, such that any future Athenian attempts to shift matters find as little purchase as possible on the structure we have set in place.
 
Driven by Apathy said:
Can you explain why exactly we'd be in massive trouble in the Adriatic? Because that makes less sense to me than it meaning trouble for us if Kerkyra were to fall under Eretrian sway.
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It's quite simple, Korinthos has already shown a desire to intrude into and extend its influence in the Adriatic, Kerkyra was originally its colony after all, and individually either of them outmatches us. Thus far we've been spared by the fact that they've been acting in opposition to each other, but if they were acting in concert I don't see how we stand against them.

And while Athens has been primarily focused on the Aegean it would be a mistake to assume they will never have an interest in the Adriatic and we certainly don't want to encourage them to have one.

Ultimately we are all competitors for the Adriatic and there is a very precipitous balance of power at the moment. If Kerkyra switches from unaligned to aligned with Athens of Korinthos that balance is not just broken, it's smashed to pieces.
Driven by Apathy said:
As of right now, neither Athenai nor Korinthos have a motive to mess with us. What's more, currently Athens/the Delian League and Korinthos/The Peloponnesian League are way too busy beating each other up to seek conflict with Eretria, a city which has given offense to neither.

Take Kerkyra and this will change. Kerkyra is strategically relevant to them - they will want to take it from us, unless we agree to ally with one side, making an enemy of the other. Your efforts to prevent disaster will be precisely what causes disaster in the first place.

And that's before we take into account that bringing Kerkyra into our sphere of influence is far more easily said than done.
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Even should we restore the Democrats to Kerkyra and the city swing somewhat towards us Athens still has no reason to see us as an enemy. Unless we use them to intrude upon the mainland which we have no interest in. Korinthos has in the past, and likely continues to be, opposed to us even if they haven't acted openly, this changes little.

Kerkyra is strategically relevant to Korinthos because it can be used to dominate the Adriatic, something we cannot allow. It's relevant to Athens because they can use it to contain Korinthos, as long as we're freeing it to continue doing that we have no quarrel with Athens.
 
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