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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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Ironanvil1 said:
@Cetashwayo out of interest, do our Metics with their assembly subscribe to the same sort of demes as citizens, or do they have their own set of factions?
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Given the Metics are a very diverse group, only form an assembly every eight years and have a much weaker political consciousness they don't really have factions or clear policies of the same kind.
 
Secretariat said:
That said, I've found the "historical engineering" process educational in its own right -- for example, the logic of why Italy is very bad for early industrialization (labor too cheap, coal too expensive), and the preconditions we'd need to create in order to build [institution of choice]. Is there a good place to have those conversations?
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Don't have a problem with you asking those questions and discussing it here, it helps me think through it and it's interesting, I can sometimes just get frustrated since I am often the one having to do a lot of the legwork.

I also sometimes wished players were more interested in the wider world and diplomatic developments than they were in technological ones, not because I don't think it's interesting but because I almost always put big hints or tidbits in the news from around the Mediterranean and only a few treasured players really comment on it per turn :V
 
Granted I think a lot of us are interested in seeing how you change the war around. Since the otl path of Athens Leeroying its whole fleet isn't that interesting.

But there isn't much to speculate right now since the war is so young
 
That does sort of bring to mind how peripherally things are changing for Carthage. We've been told the trick to destroying Syrakusai is getting Carthaginian support because otherwise they'll interfere to maintain the balance of power. How much does a stronger Sikeliote League change things for them? I really don't know enough of Sicily in this time period but it does seem like their position in the region isn't necessarily weaker but more precarious. They can play kingmaker in Sicily but their commitments elsewhere seem to prevent them from asserting any hegemony over it and there are definitely competitors that could seize hegemony if they are forced to turn away for too long.

The fact the Western Greeks are increasingly more diplomatically interconnected- the peace Metapontion forced is potentially just the beginning- and it seems like if they have any ambitions in Sicily they're going to want to reach out diplomatically in some way lest a coalition try and dictate terms. The question then becomes how aware are they of these developments and how much stock do they put in them? It's one thing to see the Sikeliote League's reforms and consolidations as a neighbor but another to see the burgeoning inter-state diplomacy happening in Italy as an outsider (both culturally and geographically) looking in.
 
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@Cetashwayo with the changes of Eritrea on a structural level that makes it comparatively more open, will we be able to achieve some sort of capital flight from Greece to the city?

Also, on that note: I forgot, how do the Greek City states see us again? As just weird?
 
One thing i'm worrying about is how much pur weirdness has spread to the other cities in the Epulian League? We know for example that Eritrea has aesthetic standards more in tune wih the Barbaroi, have those spread to our dependancies? How similar are their laws to our own?
 
So...how much of a dick move for the Ancient Hellenic world is digging up the fertile soil where all the farms were, move all that soil beside the besieged city, make an artificial hill/mountain out of the fertile soil, and then once the mountain is higher than the walls of said city start throwing soil into the city with the threat of burying them alive?
 
kilopi505 said:
So...how much of a dick move for the Ancient Hellenic world is digging up the fertile soil where all the farms were, move all that soil beside the besieged city, make an artificial hill/mountain out of the fertile soil, and then once the mountain is higher than the walls of said city start throwing soil into the city with the threat of burying them alive?
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Too expensive before internal combustion engine driven earth moving machines.

'Cuz you are talking an insane amount of man hours to do that.

fasquardon
 
I think that both from the anachronistic science perspective and just being a prosperous state, once we have at least somewhat stable borders it is sea trade that we need to seize, and the boundless wealth associated with it. The Drakonids have the right of it, for all that sewers need to be built. Cultural power tends to grow out of humongous wealth, as do other kinds of power.
 
All the Deme have a point.

Manpower means more of everything.

Strong military and secure borders means people cant sack your shit.

Wealth funds everything
 
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Well, of course. If there was no reasonable point, there wouldn't be a deme, at least not for long.

Which makes me wonder a bit which deme our more interesting RP characters fall into.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Honestly I don't see Memmon losing his re-election. He has been a really really effective xenoparakletor.
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Not only is he the best Xenoparakletor for helping to integrate the Messappi, not only has he shown great competence repeatedly in his diplomatic efforts, but a lot of players also want to eat the Dauni, and that's part of the Exorian/Mnemnon's policies.

So yeah, it's very likely that next term the Exoria, and thus Mnemnon, will win the Xenoparakletor seat.
 
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Cetashwayo said:
It's stinky, there's all sorts of parasites and pests, and parts of the city are very dirty. Bari is not a big malaria center (Daunia is) but there's definitely all sorts of unpleasant things. However, because the city is somewhat spread out, this has only become an issue recently; it used to just be a bunch of spread out houses separated by large empty spaces inside an oversized wall, but it's gotten progressively denser and is an actual town in the northern part, which is where the main dirtiness is.
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So unhealthy and unhygienic.

Eritreans should do the civilized thing and invest in poop sticks.
 
fasquardon said:
As a newcomer to this quest, I for one am glad to be participating in a quest that tries to accurately portray the limits to growth that real would-be empires face.

And while I think it would be an instructive train-wreck* to have Eretria follow in the footsteps of Rome or Macedon and unite all of Italia or all the Greeks, I totally can understand why you wouldn't want to write such a chapter of Eretrian history.

*It is instructive that Rome, one of the most successful empires in history, didn't want to be an empire, and paid dearly for its success, its labour economy choked by the slaves generated from its conquests and its politics corrupted by the immense wealth its most fortunate sons accrued, while Macedon enjoyed distinctly limited success as hegemon over the restive cities of Greece, and in the wake of an unfortunate period ruled by a mad drunkard who literally thought he was a god, was sucked dry of talent and manpower by the mad drunkard's generals. Empire comes with real downsides.

fasquardon
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To be quite fair to Alexander, self-proclaimed divinity was all the rage in Antiquity. Everyone who was anyone did it. The Pharoahs were held to be divine for most of Egypt's history, and Cleopatra declared herself Isis reborn. Caesar was declared a god after his death, and Augustus was made a god and the son of a god.

To be even more fair, by any metric, at the time of his death, Alexander had surpassed the deeds of any demigod in Greek mythology. Odysseus, Hercules, Agamemnon, Perseus — all of them paled before the Macedonian King. He rode into battle at the front of the army time and again, and survived against all odds. At 32, he had conquered the known world and made emperors beg at his feet. He had unmade civilizations and permanently reshaped maps.

To a man who honestly believed the gods were real (as Alexander did), and that only the mightiest of men were their children, then there was only one rational conclusion: he was a demigod, and not any demigod, but the greatest demigod ever born. Imagine outdoing all of your ancestral myths and divine legends before you turn 30 — that'll give anyone delusions of grandeur.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Don't have a problem with you asking those questions and discussing it here, it helps me think through it and it's interesting, I can sometimes just get frustrated since I am often the one having to do a lot of the legwork.

I also sometimes wished players were more interested in the wider world and diplomatic developments than they were in technological ones, not because I don't think it's interesting but because I almost always put big hints or tidbits in the news from around the Mediterranean and only a few treasured players really comment on it per turn :V
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Personally, I really love well done alternative history. I think the reason people aren't reacting too much or speculating is that this far, at least in the broad sense, everything is still marching along the OTL. Once we manage to visibly alter the path of history, everything is going to become not only really interesting, but genuinely pertinent to analyze and speculate about to the quest.
 
Cetashwayo said:
I also sometimes wished players were more interested in the wider world and diplomatic developments than they were in technological ones, not because I don't think it's interesting but because I almost always put big hints or tidbits in the news from around the Mediterranean and only a few treasured players really comment on it per turn :V
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While I don't comment on it much, I personally find the changing world of the various states and their different diplomatic and political affairs significantly more interesting than whether or not some new invention has come along lately that'll make manufactoring of some product marginally more effective. I've always been fascinated by history and alternate history and this quest has been particularly interesting to me because it's brought an interactive element to an otherwise mostly non-interactive interest of mine.

I've particularly noted the changing situation in Sicily like others have described with all the players being affected in different ways. Carthage with their likely African expeditions are likely a strengthened state but may also conversely be more interested in expanding past the pillars of Hercules to the detriment of their interests in Sicily. Syracuse has been weakened significantly but they along with the Sikeliote League could prove a large long-term threat to us if one or the other manages to unite the majority of the island under them.

Another thing I've been pondering is the situation with Epidamnos and whether or not we can manage to oust the Korinthians from the city while they're distracted with the Peloponnesian War and install a democracy with the exiles in our city that'll join the Epulian League. I'm likely in the minority here but I think it's important for Eretria to prevent the Korinthians from consolidating their hold on the city and expanding into the Adriatic which will likely only happen if we elect a Drakonid candidate.:V
 
ForcingConvincing the Adriatc Greeks to join our league is something that I really want to do and I was planning to vote for it come next election. However due to the war I feel like we'll have to put it on the backburner and give the Exoria another term so that they can stabilize our new subjects. Once that is done I will fully back a military expeditiondiplomatic mission.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Honestly I don't see Memmon losing his re-election. He has been a really really effective xenoparakletor.
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I dunno.

He's been very effective at working with/among the Peuketii, the Messapii, and the Dauni. But by the same token he's been fairly ineffective at working with other Greek city-states, and it's becoming increasingly obvious that that's going to be necessary.

If we want a xenoparakletor who can go to Taras, sooth some of the old hatreds, and keep them from becoming a permanent enemy as some of our quest voters fear, it's not going to be Mnemnon. If we want a xenoparakletor who can adjust our position towards and among the other Greek city-states in Italy, Sicily, and/or the mainland, as a response to the shifting dynamics of the Peloponnesian War, it's not going to be Mnemnon. Mnemnon's a good guy and he's good at what he does, but dear GOD is he cripplingly overspecialized.

kilopi505 said:
So...how much of a dick move for the Ancient Hellenic world is digging up the fertile soil where all the farms were, move all that soil beside the besieged city, make an artificial hill/mountain out of the fertile soil, and then once the mountain is higher than the walls of said city start throwing soil into the city with the threat of burying them alive?
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Well, the guys on the wall will be shooting arrows and slinging rocks and throwing all kinds of crazy shit at your diggers while you do this; you can't throw dirt into the city from farther away than they can shoot back, not in meaningful quantities.

That said, starting to do this is actually a totally valid ancient/classical/medieval siege tactic- but by that same token, if you could pull this off all the way, you wouldn't need to. By the time your artificial hill reaches the same level as the walls, why not just charge up the improvised dirt ramp you've constructed and put the defenders to the sword?

Telamon said:
So unhealthy and unhygienic.

Eritreans should do the civilized thing and invest in poop sticks.
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In keeping with Eretrians' reputation for doing weird things that nobody else can figure out and that arguably don't work very well, I propose we adopt the three seashells.

Telamon said:
To be quite fair to Alexander, self-proclaimed divinity was all the rage in Antiquity. Everyone who was anyone did it. The Pharoahs were held to be divine for most of Egypt's history, and Cleopatra declared herself Isis reborn. Caesar was declared a god after his death, and Augustus was made a god and the son of a god.

To be even more fair, by any metric, at the time of his death, Alexander had surpassed the deeds of any demigod in Greek mythology. Odysseus, Hercules, Agamemnon, Perseus — all of them paled before the Macedonian King. He rode into battle at the front of the army time and again, and survived against all odds. At 32, he had conquered the known world and made emperors beg at his feet. He had unmade civilizations and permanently reshaped maps.

To a man who honestly believed the gods were real (as Alexander did), and that only the mightiest of men were their children, then there was only one rational conclusion: he was a demigod, and not any demigod, but the greatest demigod ever born. Imagine outdoing all of your ancestral myths and divine legends before you turn 30 — that'll give anyone delusions of grandeur.
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I mean, yeah, it's understandable that he'd go all like "OK, so I haven't personally wrestled any dragons to death or anything, but seriously, which is more badass, wrestling a dragon, or conquering the entire goddamn Persian Empire?"

Walker Of Chaos said:
ForcingConvincing the Adriatc Greeks to join our league is something that I really want to do and I was planning to vote for it come next election. However due to the war I feel like we'll have to put it on the backburner and give the Exoria another term so that they can stabilize our new subjects. Once that is done I will fully back a military expeditiondiplomatic mission.
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I dunno.

I think that Mnemnon's problems with doing diplomacy among other Greeks may start to backfire if we give him another term. And without him, we can still send envoys to the individual Messapii cities and tribes; by deliberate choice we have kept them weak and fragmented and one of the advantages of that is that they're not in as good a position to demand constant attention from the top-most officials of our state.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Well, the guys on the wall will be shooting arrows and slinging rocks and throwing all kinds of crazy shit at your diggers while you do this; you can't throw dirt into the city from farther away than they can shoot back, not in meaningful quantities.

That said, starting to do this is actually a totally valid ancient/classical/medieval siege tactic- but by that same token, if you could pull this off all the way, you wouldn't need to. By the time your artificial hill reaches the same level as the walls, why not just charge up the improvised dirt ramp you've constructed and put the defenders to the sword?
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This is what I'm envisioning the proposed artificial siege hill to look like:


Hill
Hill Hill
Hill Hill Hill
Hill Hill Hill Hill
Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill
Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill
Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill
Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill
Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill
Wall Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill Hill​

Because the plan is to literally bury the city alive via landslide so we don't suffer casualties assaulting the city, or at least threaten to bury them alive. And complete destruction of their ability to threaten us forever by permanently destroying the farmlands in the city's territory via geoengineering, forcing them to abandon said city because they can't farm anymore.

...maybe I should call it an artificial mountain.
 
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W-what.
I am sorry, but what kind of....


Sorry, I am just baffled. That's not how any of it works, I think.

Starving them out would be easier and take less time.
 
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