Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Also, someone raised salted fish earlier, but salted anchovies are already part of your exports to South Italy.
Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
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- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
- Location
- USA
Metalwork probably works out better as that way you are not as reliant on the fickle demand of weapons as long stretches of peace would lull that but general metalworks means that the smiths simply shift focus to different metal goods all dependent on the needs of the time.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Lake Salpi's a salt marsh, unfortunately, not a lake bed. Think desert for natron, less coastal environments.
What I'm concerned about with weapons manufacture for export is that we don't have any comparative advantage in it -- no easy supplies of coal or charcoal, no good sources of workable metal, and it's just going to end up being a money sink that keeps us from doing other things we're better at as a city. More generally, I want to be careful about thinking of Eretria as a center of industry. Industry, as we know it, doesn't really exist; our economy, like the economy of every other polity right now, is not agriculturally productive enough to sustain many specialists of any kind. Everything is artisanal handicrafts, because there isn't anything else besides artisanal handicrafts.
If we're going to make money as a polis, it's almost certainly going to be from resource extraction.
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- Location
- Luton Airport
Eretria has a decent regional metalworking industry for Epulia already. It's what Sideros built his business on in the first game, leveraging the mass arrival of talented Metic artisans with the iron trade downriver from Canosa to meet increasing demand for agricultural tools and the like as our landholdings expanded.
However, we don't really possess any stand-out feature in terms of ore quality or such like to make us a premium product people would seek out at any great distance. IIRC, the Iberians were the ones in the era with a reputation for good quality arms manufacture.
However, we don't really possess any stand-out feature in terms of ore quality or such like to make us a premium product people would seek out at any great distance. IIRC, the Iberians were the ones in the era with a reputation for good quality arms manufacture.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
I mean, there's a reason why cities in this period tended to have a few big signature industries. For international commerce comparative advantages aren't a "collect 'em all" situation.
GOTTA CATCH 'EM ALL
I WILL TRAVEL ACROSS HELLAS, SEARCHING FAR AND WIDE~
EACH ARTISAN TO UNDERSTAND, THE COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE THAT'S INSIDE~
I WILL TRAVEL ACROSS HELLAS, SEARCHING FAR AND WIDE~
EACH ARTISAN TO UNDERSTAND, THE COMPARATIVE ADVANTAGE THAT'S INSIDE~
- Location
- Queensland, Australia
Okay, so I just looked up sea silk finally, and something struck me as interesting. Sorry if this has been asked before but @Cetashwayo seeing as we've got a sizable sea silk industry, and the shellfish that produce the sea silk fibers also occasionally produce pearls, do we actually have a pearl industry of any sort yet? Or are pearls basically the local gem and there's only barely enough to supply the local market?
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Panhellenikon
---
KYRILLOS. Men have dreams, as do gods. So, then, does a city dream?
LEUKOS. I say it does not. Consider that a city is the collection of its citizens. Zeus may dream, but Olympos does not; a citizen may dream, but a city may not.
SKANTARIOS. Consider, though, an army; an army follows the will of its captain. A captain may dream, with an army as his instrument; Athens may not dream, but Athens served too as Perikles' instrument. When we speak of Athens or Sparta's dreams, we speak of the will of the most prominent among them. So, we may say that both Athens and Sparta dream of dominion, and lordship over the other cities of Hellas.
KYRILLOS. Well said, Skantarios. Does it then follow that Eretria has a dream?
ARKOS. Compare the Persian tyranny, or the Theban oligarchy. One man has a will. A small group has a will. When we speak of Persia or Thebes, we are really speaking of their political establishments, or their decision-makers -- when we speak of Taras, we are really speaking of the will of Myron of Taras, First Citizen. The will of the Eretrian citizenry is too dispersed to properly dream.
ARKOS. Also, has anyone seen my weasel?
KYRILLOS. It is true that of the vices of our democracy, chief among them is inconstancy. Friend and foe alike note that our policy is fickle and inconstant -- unlike Persia or Thebes, in times of crisis the word of Eretria cannot be counted upon. But I would say, fierce Arkos, that Eretria does have a dream. It is unfocused, as you say, but among the citizenry there is a singularity of purpose. And with Taras pacified, the Messapi at heel, and the Dauni soon to be addressed, it is a worthwhile time to reflect on that purpose.
The dream of Eretria is a Panhellenic League. It is the unification of the towns of the Hellenes, and those who might become Hellenes, into a single League, with Eretria at most first among equals. A league of leagues, or a democracy of democracies; it is the realization of the Eretrian will, which holds equality above all.
Should we not then look to realize our dreams? Would it not be best, in the interests of a lasting peace between Hellenes and those who might become Hellene, to concentrate our efforts towards the formation of a Panhellenic League?
KYRILLOS. I have no idea where your weasel is, Arkos.
---
KYRILLOS. Men have dreams, as do gods. So, then, does a city dream?
LEUKOS. I say it does not. Consider that a city is the collection of its citizens. Zeus may dream, but Olympos does not; a citizen may dream, but a city may not.
SKANTARIOS. Consider, though, an army; an army follows the will of its captain. A captain may dream, with an army as his instrument; Athens may not dream, but Athens served too as Perikles' instrument. When we speak of Athens or Sparta's dreams, we speak of the will of the most prominent among them. So, we may say that both Athens and Sparta dream of dominion, and lordship over the other cities of Hellas.
KYRILLOS. Well said, Skantarios. Does it then follow that Eretria has a dream?
ARKOS. Compare the Persian tyranny, or the Theban oligarchy. One man has a will. A small group has a will. When we speak of Persia or Thebes, we are really speaking of their political establishments, or their decision-makers -- when we speak of Taras, we are really speaking of the will of Myron of Taras, First Citizen. The will of the Eretrian citizenry is too dispersed to properly dream.
ARKOS. Also, has anyone seen my weasel?
KYRILLOS. It is true that of the vices of our democracy, chief among them is inconstancy. Friend and foe alike note that our policy is fickle and inconstant -- unlike Persia or Thebes, in times of crisis the word of Eretria cannot be counted upon. But I would say, fierce Arkos, that Eretria does have a dream. It is unfocused, as you say, but among the citizenry there is a singularity of purpose. And with Taras pacified, the Messapi at heel, and the Dauni soon to be addressed, it is a worthwhile time to reflect on that purpose.
The dream of Eretria is a Panhellenic League. It is the unification of the towns of the Hellenes, and those who might become Hellenes, into a single League, with Eretria at most first among equals. A league of leagues, or a democracy of democracies; it is the realization of the Eretrian will, which holds equality above all.
Should we not then look to realize our dreams? Would it not be best, in the interests of a lasting peace between Hellenes and those who might become Hellene, to concentrate our efforts towards the formation of a Panhellenic League?
KYRILLOS. I have no idea where your weasel is, Arkos.
Sugar is definitely not needed to make bacon, where I live I've never even seen bacon with sugar in it (my one encounter with it being in the US, I put its existence down to the whole thing the USA has for sugar).
Because a large dimension of the spice trade was about medicine. All spices I am aware of have some beneficial effect that can be used as medicine, and that kernel of truth was wildly over-sold by spice traders. And sick people desperate in the face of death are willing to spend considerable sums of money on nice-tasting mild anti-microbials imported from the Indies on the chance that their smell can stop plague-causing miasma or a taste of them can send the cancer devouring them into reverse.
And then there's the whole status dimension, if pepper commands a greater price per weight than gold, it sure says alot when you serve it at your table.
fasquardon
I'd note that part of this is that spices are REALLY low bulk. People use spices in tiny pinches, which means that like salt, its both stupidly valuable per cargo space and yet basically everyone who mattered could afford to buy some.
Saffron is still more expensive than gold weight-for-weight today.
And it's a very good point that many herbs and spices we think of today mainly in culinary contexts also have medicinal qualities which were valued just as highly, if not more so. Sage and rosemary for example, actually quite a few herbs, have antibacterial and antiseptic properties. Many are anti-inflammatories as well. Honey is exceptionally good as a base for an antiseptic and antibacterial salve for even quite serious wounds. Garlic is good for your heart and lowers blood pressure. The list goes on.
A lot of these would be consumed in various forms not as an acute treatment for specific ailments, because they generally weren't remotely as powerful as modern drugs even in highly distilled forms (with some exceptions), but as a general kind of protective if you were likely to be prone to something.
It's also worth noting here that pharmaka , where we get the word "pharmacy" from, was the Greek word for witchcraft. In mythology this was a mysterious, potent yet somewhat untrustworthy power, seen as mostly within the feminine domain.
And it's a very good point that many herbs and spices we think of today mainly in culinary contexts also have medicinal qualities which were valued just as highly, if not more so. Sage and rosemary for example, actually quite a few herbs, have antibacterial and antiseptic properties. Many are anti-inflammatories as well. Honey is exceptionally good as a base for an antiseptic and antibacterial salve for even quite serious wounds. Garlic is good for your heart and lowers blood pressure. The list goes on.
A lot of these would be consumed in various forms not as an acute treatment for specific ailments, because they generally weren't remotely as powerful as modern drugs even in highly distilled forms (with some exceptions), but as a general kind of protective if you were likely to be prone to something.
It's also worth noting here that pharmaka , where we get the word "pharmacy" from, was the Greek word for witchcraft. In mythology this was a mysterious, potent yet somewhat untrustworthy power, seen as mostly within the feminine domain.
- Location
- USA
I got ya whatever idea we throwing out it needs a least be plausible.
Like a tribe of Scythians are not going to show up and be like hey try this dank super useful plant bro.
Or a coconut full of sativa seeds washes up on our shore.
Most likely way would be through Thrace who do trade with Scythians.
They had holy men dedicated to the Gods who might have been smoking quite a bit.
Also right about now the southern parts of Thrace are getting a bit hellenized because of Athenian and Ionian colonies.
Those are like still super fresh colonies tho like less then 10 years old now.
Even then doubt whatever their trading would end up where we are but that could change if we ever recolonize Eretria so that might open up more possibilities.
Or who knows what you can find in the Athens markets?
Flax is also pretty useful too just don't get the medical benefits.
I would also point out the Nacre has some value as well.
Speaking of medicine, I came across an article detailing how parasites enjoyed conditions in a timeline that will never be. Apparently, using infected feces, bathhouses infrequently changed, and aqueducts might've been reservoirs.
Just thought it might be something to keep in mind since Exoria might be noticing this on the ground level in the polis. Probably noticed the filthy conditions in the city might be impacting growth rates or maybe people have seen more gut worms or lice than usual.
Ancient Rome Was Infested with Human Parasites, Poop Shows
Just thought it might be something to keep in mind since Exoria might be noticing this on the ground level in the polis. Probably noticed the filthy conditions in the city might be impacting growth rates or maybe people have seen more gut worms or lice than usual.
Ancient Rome Was Infested with Human Parasites, Poop Shows
- Location
- his hidden lair
We need to have Antiquity Autarky at all costs. Our very survival demands it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Unfortunately, in the absence of the concept of epidemiological statistics, it's very hard to prove that this kind of thing is going on beyond the level of "poop is nasty."
There's a reason that the "Sanitary Movement" that finally, finally ended the tendency of cities to be mortality sinks emerged in the 19th century; that's when people started doing the math to make credible public policy arguments for working really, really hard to keep feces out of the water supply.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
...Wait what why
- Location
- Hell
Going back to the imminent elections, I do believe that Cetashwayo that the Demos plan to raise a new temple with the remaining two years after Hill upgrade is finished.
What temple do you think each one will push for?
My first guess is Poseidon for the Demos Drakos because they are mostly aristocrats and thus our cavalry and our navy captains. Those fall under his domain.
What temple do you think each one will push for?
My first guess is Poseidon for the Demos Drakos because they are mostly aristocrats and thus our cavalry and our navy captains. Those fall under his domain.
Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
I too am curious
You can get natron deposits close to the coast. There are deposits near Pompeii which we could trade with the Kymai for - but it may be better to organize the glass making in Kymai and import glass ingots to be made into finished goods in Eretria, rather than import natron to make glass ingots we export elsewhere.
Though natron does have a number of interesting uses, including as insecticide and making smokeless fuel, which is pretty interesting. So if we could think of a reason why Eretria would import natron to start a glass industry, it could lead to interesting side uses.
I think a better bet for encouraging the prosperity of the city would be to pursue domination of the Adriatic though.
fasquardon
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yeah.
Being a maritime center in general is going to be better for an ancient city than trying to specialize in highly specific industrial product chains in an era when most of the population are subsistence farmers who eat what they grow and have negligible surplus to buy anything not literally necessary for basic survival.
Being a maritime center in general is going to be better for an ancient city than trying to specialize in highly specific industrial product chains in an era when most of the population are subsistence farmers who eat what they grow and have negligible surplus to buy anything not literally necessary for basic survival.
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I disagree -- I alluded to this, but I think we want to be in a position to devour the carcass of whoever loses the Peloponnesian War.
We've touched on the topic of state formation before. What an Eretrian state looks like, at this point in time, is a super-league of city-states, with common citizenship and military policies, with an assembly that meets every year and can levy some taxes. (That's a model the Sikeliotes are already treading down; and, for reference, that's about as much unity as the Dutch Republic or the Old Swiss Confederacy.)
Either Athens or Sparta is going to lose the Peloponnesian War. (Shocking, I know.) If Athens loses, there will be a lot of former Athenian subjects vulnerable to Eretrian power, whether soft or hard; if Sparta loses, there will be a lot of towns in the Peloponnese we can pick up as league members. That represents concentrations of population who would be easy to integrate into this proto-state system, which means both markets and taxation, plus some measure of safety; IMO, the biggest threat right now is other Hellenes, and this buffers against that.
The Sandman
So Zetta Slowpoke
- Location
- Wherever I am, which isn't where I'm not
I'd rather stay far enough west that the Persians don't start doling out fat stacks of cash to anyone who'll break up our league. Which they're going to try against literally anyone who looks like they might actually unite Greece.
I think that the leaders of all the major Demos are basically aristocrats to some extent, at least in terms of coming from influential families if not necessarily financial status, and probably quite closely related to one another given the size of the city. It's just whether they have a traditional agrarian focus, a more mercantile one, or are more invested in large estates with horses and strong links to the barbaroi. The Demos Drakonia was maybe the least populist platform last election in some ways, but that could change given their heavy losses.
So, I like the bits here about state formation in the Eretrian conquest, but I think adventurism in mainland Greece, the Peloponnese, or former Athenian or Spartan dependencies would probably be a real mistake. We are not big enough, nor do we have the kind of power projection, to make those kind of dreams more than a desperate gamble at best, and probably just throwing lives and treasure away in the more realistic scenario.