Of course you're the GM here, but I would point out that Athens had a hundred triremes, plus allies. That means you can keep thirty on-station at once whilst the others are getting fresh water and supplies, repairing broken spars, etc.

We have fifteen. :V
Seems like we have very even odds in that case, no? I mean, it's Athens. Those guys shake when someone looks at them the wrong way.

All jokes aside, yeah, blockading a force that outnumbers us by that extent is not happening without a real tactical genius, or the Athenians thinking we somehow have enough ships to make a outbreak too bloody for their taste.

Also vote changed

[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
 
Seems like we have very even odds in that case, no? I mean, it's Athens. Those guys shake when someone looks at them the wrong way.

All jokes aside, yeah, blockading a force that outnumbers us by that extent is not happening without a real tactical genius, or the Athenians thinking we somehow have enough ships to make a outbreak too bloody for their taste.

Uhm.

The discussion was about Athens blockading Syracuse versus us blockading Taras, in terms of how difficult it is to create an effective blockade with triremes. Not us blockading Athens.

...That would be a bad idea.
 
Fine words.

Will you say them to the childless mothers, and the wailing widows, when they ask "Was there nothing you could have done to bring our sons and husbands home alive?"

Will you be the one to tell them? that when given the choice between the lives of our citizens and the laughing of the barbarioi, that we feared their laughter so, and that is why their sons and husbands are dead?
Oh?

Do you wish to tell me that the Serpent Path is bloodless? That none of our Skirmishers and Cavalry will die? Remember that they are not all barbaroi, our citizens are also involved.

The sheer arrogance to think your plan, that any plan, will give flawless victory against Taras.

The continued refusal to see that reputation matters, not only of our barbaroi neighbors, but of Hellene blood. That the more glory and prestige we accrue means that our enemies are less likely to war with us. That to be our friend and ally means we share that glory. That when we make a defensive pact, and the other side is in disarray we still do our part and protect them even without their help.
 
I am roleplaying the entire time I'm in the thread.
The bits where it appears that I am talking out of character are actually just Arktos talking to his pet bear, in the middle of the Assembly, whilst all the other citizens awkwardly look on.

Is a bear a weapon? I think we should pass a user motion to designate bears as living weapons if we haven't already.
 
that's presentism, in ancient greece there's no right to bear arms
Is there a right to arm bears? Because having a bear hoplite phalanx seems to fit with the rest of our plans to improve our army -- sounds cool as hell, but runs into a multitude of boring "practical", "realistic", and "oh god, it's eating my arms!" concerns.
 
that's presentism, in ancient greece there's no right to bear arms
Is there a right to arm bears? Because having a bear hoplite phalanx seems to fit with the rest of our plans to improve our army -- sounds cool as hell, but runs into a multitude of boring "practical", "realistic", and "oh god, it's eating my arms!" concerns.

I propose we ban both. Bear arms have claws attached, which makes them a weapon, surely, and arming bears seems dangerous in and of itself. The Ekklesia must be safe from bears, whether wholly or in part!
 
Leukos the Accountant:

"I hereby move that at all future meetings of the ekklesia, any animal capable of threatening a grown man be regarded as a weapon brought into the sacred ritual of assembly."

"WHO WILL LIFT MY ROCK?"

:p
 
*shrug*
The argument remains the same, you cannot be afraid of a pitched battle just because Cetashwayo revealed the mechanics of battle. That was not point of the informational and I feel people miss that.

It was there to help people understand what goes on and what we can do to stack the odds.

Instead it seems that people are saying that just because there is always a chance of catastrophe, we must always avoid battle now, regardless of anything else we do.
 
*shrug*
The argument remains the same, you cannot be afraid of a pitched battle just because Cetashwayo revealed the mechanics of battle. That was not point of the informational and I feel people miss that.

It was there to help people understand what goes on and what we can do to stack the odds.

Instead it seems that people are saying that just because there is always a chance of catastrophe, we must always avoid battle now, regardless of anything else we do.
Oh nonsense.

Stop strawmanning.
 
Oh, the only reason I'm joining this quest is for RP purposes. For instance, if it were me and not Heliodoros, I'd be more inclined to support the attrition war.

But Heliodoros is a young man who used his first speech in the ekklesia to support this war and he really really doesn't want to look barbaroi and uncool in front of his mates and any visitors from the league cities.
 
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*shrug*
The argument remains the same, you cannot be afraid of a pitched battle just because Cetashwayo revealed the mechanics of battle. That was not point of the informational and I feel people miss that.

It was there to help people understand what goes on and what we can do to stack the odds.

Instead it seems that people are saying that just because there is always a chance of catastrophe, we must always avoid battle now, regardless of anything else we do.

I was tempted to shoot back with a comment here, but on second thought, it was ill-thought. I've gone over our manpower summary in the last update, and our stated reserves between Eritriea and all of our direct clients is 11,282 (roughly 7,600 belong to us, 800 to the Leauge and the rest mostly Peuketti). We actually outnumber the Tarantine levy of ~9,000. With Thurii to fight alongside us, we'd decisively out number the Tarantines.

Now it's important to consider that Thurii is on the other side of Magna Gracia and Taras has a higher proportion of hoplites compared to us so a pure numbers comparison shouldn't fill you with quite as much confidence.

I still think it's important to pick the war of attrition, however. That's how Eretria has been developing as a state and as a polis. Our constant existential warring against the barbarians before Eretria's walls were built deeply impacted on the polis' psyche. Every moment was existential warfare and even @Cetashwayo admitted that he expected us to be exterminated by the barbarians. Our citizens are different from other Greeks; we're results focused, constantly seeking improvement; we're a true colonial state, with active attempts to expand by immigration; we have an unprecedented focus on mobility in warfare compared to other Greeks with the Kleos Exoria and Sacred Ekdoromi; and our recent focus on mercantilism and expanding our coffers however we can.

We considered going the hoplite-focused route in the second quest (roughly during Herodion's exile) and we soundly rejected it. We wanted to branch out into a navy and cavalry focused play style since that would be how we become a true player in the Hellenistic world. Without a navy, we couldn't project power. Plus, there was a reason I argued so hard for Herodion to create the Kleos Exoria when he returned; cavalry are much better suited to warfare in southern Italy compared to Greece and cavalry is a devastating advantage to have, especially when all of your comparable rivals suck at it.

We built our cavalry and our mobility into a strong point to take advantage of it. There's a reason we have so many cavalry and the Sacred Ekdromoi are medium infantry as opposed to being regular, heavy infantry hoplites. We've spec'd into this playstyle so we need to actually play it. It's where our advantages lie and it's the culmination of decades of struggle and divergence in Eritriea compared to many other Hellenic Greeks.

We had very good reason to fear the barbarian way of warfare when Eriteria was founded. It's time to take what we've learned over decades of struggle and show the Tarantines why they should fear it too.


(@Cetashwayo In the last update, is the Subjects & Subjects Levies portion correct when it says Egnatia has both Peuketii and Egnatian cavalry & both Turai and Egnatian skirmishers?)
 
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[X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
Adhoc vote count started by sam5447 on May 26, 2019 at 10:42 PM, finished with 1372 posts and 59 votes.

  • [X] Plan The Greatest Glory Is Lasting Victory
    -[X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    --[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    [X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    [X] [Strategos] Theron Zosimos (Demos Antipatria, The Storm of Iron)
    -[X] Glory 6, Lawfulness 3, Friendliness 1, Courage 8, Magnificence 2, Wisdom 5
    [x] [Diplomacy] Metapontion.The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    [X] Carry A Big Stick (With A Snake Wrapped Round It)
    [X] [Diplomacy] The Dauni. We cannot allow the Dauni to create a two-front war. Our spies have revealed opposition to a war with Eretria among the Herdonians and Salapians. We must bribe and convince them to push the rest of the Dauni Confederacy into opposing a war with Eretria even it looks momentarily advantageous [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to convince the Dauni to stay at peace].
    [X] [Land] We cannot afford to lose so much revenue [Maintain Hoplite Ratio at 40%, lose no public revenue].
    [X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] [Strategos] Xanthos Irenaeos (Demos Exoria, The Storm of Iron)
    [X] Plan: Iron and Fire
    [X] Plan Eretria Unyielding
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
    -[X] [Land] Distribute the public lands [-10 Talents start-up cost for hoplites, permanently lose 9 talents per turn in public revenue, +351 Hoplites, Hoplite Ratio to 45%].
    -[X] [League] Accept the Pylonos' Reform Proposal [New League Strategos elected by the cities, power to preside over annual meetings, new League Games every four years, common weights and measures, veto reformed to super-majority of delegates from cities].
    -[X] [Strategos] Epiktetos Linos (Demos Drakonia, The Serpent's Vice)
    [X] Plan Steel Ram
    -[X] [Diplomacy] Metapontion. The Metapontines are cordial with Eretria but have no love for the idea of us being victorious in war with Taras. We must move to keep them neutral, and if possible, to allow Thuriian infantry through their lands to assist us against Taras [-20 talents for bribes, Mnemnon will attempt to negotiate with Metapontion].
 
Man. This is a muck of a situation, which isn't really anything new in this quest.

So my issue with the Storm of Iron strategy is that mixes poorly with the diplo options. Obviously getting the 2000 hoplites out of Thurii is key to its success. Beating Taras on the field and all that, but I don't think we can get them. Sending Mnemnon to Metapontion isn't a guarantee of success. It's just a chance at one, and I don't think he'll succeed.

We've got this well deserved half-barbaroi reputation, because voters just don't have the strong Hellenic supremacy beliefs that the NPCs do and have acted accordingly. Even goes back to the initial "free the slaves and enfranchise them" choice at the beginning, as our citizen base became a lot more multicultural and diverse than is expected in Ancient Greece. We're an oddity, and we continually affirm those suspicions with all our barbaroi befriending. And so they want to meet with the xenoparakletor, which is a lose-lose situation. If we say no and send him to the Dauni, we're just reinforcing this bad reputation. If we send him, well...

Cetashwayo mentioned last turn that negotiating a deal with the Metapontines is not Mnemnon's strong suit. We elected a xenoparakletor to deal with barbaroi, and he did a good job of it. Earned himself a permanent position as liason to the Peuketii were that an actual thing. But now we're asking him to go talk to some Greeks and he's no a model austere Hellene. Glory 2 means he probably won't make a great impression. The Storm of Iron strategy also makes his job a bit harder, because we're going for a more decisive victory which they are nervous about. We are going about it in a very Hellenistic fashion, but all the same, not giving them what they want. And a poor salesman at that.

There's also the matter of opportunity cost, where what happens when we don't make promises to the Dauni? Well, Storm of Iron takes a lot more of our manpower away to fend them off at first, but Serpent's Vice keeps more of them locked up in siege. And again, this assumes that the mission to the Dauni is successful and our xenoparakletor is not completely swindled and outwitted by the apparent intrigue-hero king of the Dauni. I do fear the message that sends, where we decline the Metapontine's request and instead grant that of a barbaroi. Which we then have to weigh against sending a poor representative.

So yeah, losing out on the right of passage is a blow to success chances on that one. A shame, because I think Storm of Iron's very workable with Thurii's support, but so be it.
 
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