Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)
- Thread starter Cetashwayo
- Start date
- Original Alt. History
-
- Tags
- ancient greece alternate history empire builder civ quest democracy gods save us granary management hubris it's an eretrian thing. let lose the weasels of war lithocracy lithocracy is my fetish maximum hellene my big fat greek divine wedding this granary aint gonna fill itself cetash unwinnable
Walker Of Chaos
Best/Worst Dynasty
- Location
- Sweden
Mainly preventing Ankon from inciting the Picentii and starting a war as well as finally getting the amber trade (and hopefully other deals) up and running to combat our rapidly growing expenses.
Well, we are also under pressure financially, so the Drakonid policy to grab the amber trade route is growing more pressing (I guess we could vote Exoria and pick the amber trade route as the cross-Demes mission) and there are rumblings from Ankon which the Drakonids had taken an interest in.
fasquardon
- Location
- Central Europe
If Exoria keeps pushing their Dauni conquest, I would rather do the reverse. Vote Drakonia to deal with income/Ankon and pick one Exorian policy to deal with Iapygian unrest.
The financial issues should be kept in mind, next year both the metic tax reduction (-14) and the increased naval upkeep (-60) gonna kick in. While some of that will be alleviated by tribute from Nea Kymai and the Messapii (probably around +20), we should be on the lookout for some new income sources over the next four years.
Noroboro
Consistency is key and I’m consistently tired :)
- Location
- Canada
The Amber trade route would definitely help with that. Getting more metic would help with tax income but ultimately I think we'll have to wait until next election to see which parties offer us increased income options and maybe chose our extra policy for extra income.
- Location
- Space
Yes i understand that but really some things are bound to happen here no matter the costs because alternative is farmer rebellion and us being blind towards what is happening with our vassals.
Once we get to bottom of this we will probably need to set up a system in which Eretria can supervise/keep in contact with it's vassals better (remember all those motions to create xenoparakletor office related to barbaroi and keeping in touch with our vassals that were blocked due to us already refusing such option) which will have effect on us reversing our policies of autonomy anyway, so the real question here is not should we do it, but how to do it in a way that keeps everyone pleased?
And while cattle has great part to play in this problem there is possibility of it not being only problem, there is possibility of people being taxed more than they should be. So basically this is not us intervinig on anyone side as it is us reforming our system of vassalage and putting regulations on cattle trade/tax reform. Of course when trying to reform it's in our interests to cooperate with local government that is friendly to us and listen to their concerns/offering them solutions.
For example instead of us taxing people ourselves we still let chieftains retain that privilege (meaning that we won't impose ourselves on their authority), but we set up office with purpose of keeping in contact with our vassals. Also it's important to note that this isn't just Bretton problem, but vassal wide problem so what might work for them will not work for rest.
In this case best option would be to reform in a way that reduces tax (to keep chiefs happy ), but in return increases importance of the farmers politically. Generally encourage formation of hoplite system among our vassals which will see increase in political influence of the farmers and hellenisation of common folk via cultural influence.
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Professor Vesca
Good News Everyone!
Anyone ever notice that our number of colonies basically exploded as soon as we made the League reforms granting land to metics? We are getting more and more options for colonization, and the projects are getting bigger and more ambitious as time goes on.
Whatever is going on with the Peuketii is probably the most immediate issue. Whatever is going on with the Messapii ought to be resolved this turn since we already voted to do that last time. They are probably related issues, but we are dealing with them as separate actions. I think that is a mistake a lot of people are making, just because the events in Brention are probably revealing more about the problems among the Peuketii, that doesn't mean that we are going to be dealing with Kretans when dealing with the Peuketii, or vice versa. Though I call this the most pressing, it's probably the one pressing issue that we could allow to boil over and react to instead of needing to take proactive measures.
The next most pressing issue is probably the brewing conflict between Thulii and Kortone. Which since we are allied to both, is important to us. If we want to resolve it peacefully I suspect we will have to take action on the next vote and cannot wait for a crisis to hit first.
There is also the trade issue, particularly the Amber trade and settling a colony in the Venetian lagoon. We've been putting that off for awhile, I don't want to put it off anymore.
There is also the issue with Arkon and the Picentini, though that seems to be quiet so far, so maybe we can continue to delay on that, though I'd rather not.
There is Sicily, and hints that Carthage might be doing something there. We can probably delay another turn, but after that we will probably have to devote some resources there again.
There is the issue of the four independent Greek cities on east side of the southern Adriatic, who we'd like to invite into the league. As well as Epidamnos, the colony of Korinth, which we probably want to keep tabs on, and perhaps prepare a plan to reinstall their democrats that are exiles in our city. That's more of a "prepare a plan" so we can act when an opportunity occurs thing.
Keryka is probably also in that category, preparing for the next time there is change in power there, so we can intervene against Korinth and hopefully drag them out of the Atheni-Korinth seesaw they've been on.
So if I had to pick my top three issues for next turn, right now it would be:
1: Mediate between Thulii and Krotone to get a peaceful settlement between our allies that they are both happy with.
2: Establish the colony at Venice and establish the Amber trade route
3: Investigate the unrest among the Peuketii.
Hopefully we won't have a situation where they are all split between the three demos.
Oh yeah, that's another thing, at some point we would like to subjugate the Dauni.
Indeed, that's what I've been saying over and over.
Err... the chiefs want high taxes, that's what the unrest seems to be about. And that appears to be connected to the cattle vs farmers issue.
I don't know if that's even a solution. Also, I think the issues go much deeper than that. The cattle based economy is what allows for our vassals to produce such good cavalry. So "giving up cattle" would probably mean "no longer having a cavalry wing."
Frankly, there has been a lot of starving before we miss a meal going on. I figure we just have to wait and see what happens, and deal with it when it comes.
Horologer
Incertae sedis
- Location
- a risen sea
[X] Let us grant this adventurer and his people sanctuary in Brention and add their strength to ours [Brention will become a mixed city, +1,200 freemen to the town, any ambition by Artahias or the Hyrians to gain control will be blocked].
While I think this is probably going to cause some problems down the road, we don't really have a very good reason to say no right now. The local ruler is fine with it, and it gives us a lot of manpower. Obviously, it would be better if we could keep a firm handle on the situation. Unfortunately, one of the consequences of a decentralized system like ours is that intervening in our vassal's affairs is difficult unless something breaks. Our system does make ruling subjects less work, but it also makes it tough to be proactive about solving their problems.
While I think this is probably going to cause some problems down the road, we don't really have a very good reason to say no right now. The local ruler is fine with it, and it gives us a lot of manpower. Obviously, it would be better if we could keep a firm handle on the situation. Unfortunately, one of the consequences of a decentralized system like ours is that intervening in our vassal's affairs is difficult unless something breaks. Our system does make ruling subjects less work, but it also makes it tough to be proactive about solving their problems.
Honestly the lack of information about the Peuketti and the Messapi feels at least somewhat artificial to me, though I understand why the GM doesn't present all the evidence right now (and I have less reason to believe that it would be a central talking point in current politics since I can buy that the political class is somewhat distracted and doesn't give the issue that much weight yet). (And from a purely technical standpoint you don't want overload the audience with too much information, especially before they can act on it)
But it seems more than slightly unbelievable to me that we (as the citizenship of Eretria) would have no idea what is going on there or at the very least could easily find out at least the general facts. I know there is this whole "born and died in the same village without ever visiting the next city" trope when it comes to ancient civilisations and to some degree that is undoubtedly true. But we aren't talking about some distant strangers here but the people right next to us with whom we have an ongoing positive relationship with. Even ignoring the constant low level trade that should be going on there should be personal relationships between the Peuketti and some of our citizens, be it guestfriendships between people living on the border or informal patronage relations between certain Peuketti/Messapi and "influential" citizens in Eretria. Hell, with the distances we are talking about are near enough that any halfway wealthy person could send a trusted servant to the region to inquire on his behalf (or go himself).
I mean sure we probably won't have the comparable advanced systems of the Romans (where many Patrician family, often the one of conqueror of a region, maintained ties with the "allies" there and served as something of an advocate of their interest in Rome). But I would suspect that a simple version of that exists since I think fits very well with Greek politics and general behaviour.
But it seems more than slightly unbelievable to me that we (as the citizenship of Eretria) would have no idea what is going on there or at the very least could easily find out at least the general facts. I know there is this whole "born and died in the same village without ever visiting the next city" trope when it comes to ancient civilisations and to some degree that is undoubtedly true. But we aren't talking about some distant strangers here but the people right next to us with whom we have an ongoing positive relationship with. Even ignoring the constant low level trade that should be going on there should be personal relationships between the Peuketti and some of our citizens, be it guestfriendships between people living on the border or informal patronage relations between certain Peuketti/Messapi and "influential" citizens in Eretria. Hell, with the distances we are talking about are near enough that any halfway wealthy person could send a trusted servant to the region to inquire on his behalf (or go himself).
I mean sure we probably won't have the comparable advanced systems of the Romans (where many Patrician family, often the one of conqueror of a region, maintained ties with the "allies" there and served as something of an advocate of their interest in Rome). But I would suspect that a simple version of that exists since I think fits very well with Greek politics and general behaviour.
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Why would it? This kind of political arrangement is pretty unique. The Peuketii especially are basically independent except that they give over troops and tribute to Eretria. Eretria has no inspectors in their cities, no garrisons, most of the trade is one-way, and they do have plenty of interactions but it's mostly with the elite among the Peuketii and they haven't really established any relationship with the Messapii.
Eretrian men can't even enter Peuketii territory during peacetime. Autonomy is autonomy, after all. It means far less control or interaction between territories. I can't elucidate every aspect of it for the reasons you mentioned but it's meant to be very loose- a tributary situation. Oftentimes classical garrisons would be unaware of conspiracies in the city they were garrisoning, such as when Pelopidas infiltrated Thebes with Theban support and helped coup the Spartans.
The Spartans may have been aware of anti-Spartan resentment (though who knows with the Spartans) but they were completely unprepared for the coup. In a similar way you may be aware of specific resentment (against cattle-men), but the local nobility doesn't really want to be cooperative on the issue and just tell you yet. The language barrier makes this especially challenging; while the nobility might speak Greek, the local farmers do not.
That said if you do want the basic facts, I can lay them out because I think that's fair: Hyria has no clear leadership and instead a council of nobles rules and jostles for power, Artahias has been quiet and his realm is stable, you know what's happening in Brention more or less, Caelia has been quiet, and the Peuketii King Gorgos says he has some domestic trouble with commoners but also insists on his own autonomy and ability to deal with the issue. The current consensus in the Ekklesia is that it's some kind of issue related to farmers and cattle, though the contours are difficult to fathom.
However, I also think it's somewhat unfair to characterize my position as merely withholding information; it is difficult to cross linguistic and chauvinistic barriers here, and Athenai had trouble with less. Obander is the current xenoparakletor and he simply doesn't care that much; his position is that the Iapyges have always been a sideshow and a distraction and the less he can focus on them the better. His priorities have therefore been to focus on preparing to journey to Athenai and to leave it all in the hands of Kyros Gennadios, whose main relation to barbaroi is having fought them. The city as a whole might care about the Iapyges in a fuzzy, unclear way, but that's not the same as genuine interest and care with their internal affairs.
Sannape may be a day's walk away, but the entire Aegean was a day's sail away, and that didn't really stop there from being massive communication problems between Athenai and its tributaries. By the time that Rome has really entered the picture as a true imperial power, it's benefiting from centuries of centralization and development of stronger communications and inter-state communication; you might as well ask why Mantinaea and Tegea don't work together while being less than a day's walk from each other. We're simply in a different time period where these systems are just emerging and are naturally very loose, and much is at a very small scale. We're after all talking about literally a few dozen kilometer radius here, but Rome also grew up with hostile states twenty-kilometers away.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Also, I'd like to apologize for the slow pace of updates recently. I've really struggled with it not just because of work but because what I really want to do is pick up the pace; I'd love to be able to get to a point where we could, say, be actually dealing with Rome, and I keep imagining a scenario 5-10 game years in the future I'd like to get to. But I'm a bit trapped by the turn format and by my own design, as all the wonderful details I pack into every update also means I end up exhausted after writing them. I'm having a hard time figuring out what to do to really get the game moving again at a fast clip without burning out.
Alias
Lord of Otters
- Location
- Northrend
Maybe recruit some sub-QM's to share the burden of writing updates?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Well, maybe, but I'd prefer to keep it in-house. What I'm thinking more about is the ability to just timeskip past to get to the really good stuff in a less incremental fashion. It's difficult to figure out, though, if that would really help or if it's really just a lack of motivation.
Always Late
Lacking in coffee, sleep, and brains
- Location
- Ohio
Apologies if I'm making any wrong assumptions here, but:
1. You know what you have to cover on-screen to get to that five-year 'I am hyped to play in this point in history' period.
2. You know what level of detail you are happy with and what level of detail is the acceptable minimum.
3. If you did timeskip all the way to the stuff you want to write, how far would you say your enthusiasm and prexisting plans/ideas would take you?
If the first two are accurate, then I can think of two approaches that could help. One is to experiment with the level of detail for given sections. That's kind of a 'refine what I do' efficiency tweak, by my reckoning. The other is to just take it as a lack of motivation for the immediate segments and just do a short 'narrative choice' arc. The third assumption is about... well, you've paused and picked back up the quest before. And timeskip-summaried ahead as well.
To try and summarize for clarity: Either re-adjust to better handle the material between now and what you want to write, cover the bare narrative details in a short selection of votes, or just straight-up write a 'timeskip' to the next turn.
Is this of any help?
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
Yeah, it definitely helps. Appreciate it.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
As long as we don't get kicked in the shorts with an "ah-ha, you didn't act on this when you had the chance" penalty of one form or other, it should be fine to fast-forward a bit.
Maybe we could go light on the actual decisions and votes and just roll forward with the results of the remainder of this electoral term, then do the next election cycle and its actions as a "OK, you voted for such-and-such, they face the upcoming challenges so-and-so?"
Sort of a cross between a time-skip and normal turn progression, with us not making year-by-year decisions but rather a quadrennial election or two to give us some semblance of policy control over the timeskip, with the effects of our actions more abstracted/up-to-you?
Maybe we could go light on the actual decisions and votes and just roll forward with the results of the remainder of this electoral term, then do the next election cycle and its actions as a "OK, you voted for such-and-such, they face the upcoming challenges so-and-so?"
Sort of a cross between a time-skip and normal turn progression, with us not making year-by-year decisions but rather a quadrennial election or two to give us some semblance of policy control over the timeskip, with the effects of our actions more abstracted/up-to-you?
It's stuff like that I find hard to believe. On the one hand the Peuketti are supposed to be a tributary and yet on the other hand our own people are forbidden to enter their land? That honestly makes very little sense to me and seems more than abit unrealistic. I mean I could get it if it was the opposite way, them forbidden to enter our territory (and even that would stretch my imgaination consideirng our history) but how exactly did we end up in a situation where we as the overlord can't enter their land, even as individuals. And the same is true of trade - we are the guys who control the Peukettis (and to a lesser degree the Messapi though they at least have their own ports) access to the most active trading network in the ancient world. And sure they might be mostly farmers but even farmers trade for tools, amphora and the like, most of which we greeks are famous for producing. I mean I know we are in a specially xenophobic time for the greeks right now but even so I don't think it makes sense to dismiss the archelogical evidence that shows that greeks traded (and moved into) the inland of Magna Greacia when they settled the area. And honestly it also clashes with the fact that there is also supposed to be an ongoing hellenization of people living there with them adopting our gods etc. which would make very little sense if contact between our people was as minimal as you make it out to be.
And in regards of the timeskip, the decision is up to you and I don't think you should feel enslaved to the turn/year system but I am unsure if doing so now would really help or be truly benefical to the quest. One of the things that I find attractive about this quest is the ability to truly shape our city/league and I think for that "slower" and less eventful times like these are important. I mean right now we are deciding the future shape of our league, our hegemonic/imperalistic ambitions and to some extent the balance of power in the region. Do we really want to skip that just so we can deal with the next big thing/threat? Also I don't know your plans but I really struggle to see what unique element Rome might bring inton the mix, well other than the whole "ROME!!!" thing, it isn't like we are currently lacking in powerful factions with an interest in the area. And sure no updates is bad but I honestly doubt that I would be very interested in a quest that lacks those small details that seem to exhaust you so much so I will sadly probably lose either way...
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- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, we could probably have pushed for more at the time that the current status quo was established, but basically we settled for a secure hold on the inland territories, plus the tribute, plus (and this is important) the levies, in exchange for promising to accept the Peuketii's autonomy. A different polis in our position might not have agreed to accept such total Peuketii sovereignty, but then, a different polis probably wouldn't have been able to convince the Peuketii to raise thousands of troops to help us fight in our wars.
Our arrangement with the Messapii may prove rather different.
Also note that while @Cetashwayo may have a different idea, it wouldn't surprise me if that "forbidden to enter Peuketii land" clause has an "except by invitation" rider that routinely makes room for merchants; it's mainly meant to prevent random settlement by Greeks on Peuketii land, which is exactly the sort of thing that drove the Peuketii inland in the first place.
Similarly, it sounds like we've got a situation where the Peuketii nobility is Hellenizing rapidly and is fairly enthusiastic about interacting with Greeks, but where the average Peuketii farmer is not. Again, the situation may be quite different among the Messapii, since our relationship with the Peuketii is the result of a specific treaty being signed that had benefits for both sides.
I mean I could get it if it was the opposite way, them forbidden to enter our territory (and even that would stretch my imgaination consideirng our history) but how exactly did we end up in a situation where we as the overlord can't enter their land, even as individuals. And the same is true of trade - we are the guys who control the Peukettis (and to a lesser degree the Messapi though they at least have their own ports) access to the most active trading network in the ancient world. And sure they might be mostly farmers but even farmers trade for tools, amphora and the like, most of which we greeks are famous for producing. I mean I know we are in a specially xenophobic time for the greeks right now but even so I don't think it makes sense to dismiss the archelogical evidence that shows that greeks traded (and moved into) the inland of Magna Greacia when they settled the area. And honestly it also clashes with the fact that there is also supposed to be an ongoing hellenization of people living there with them adopting our gods etc. which would make very little sense if contact between our people was as minimal as you make it out to be.
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Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
As Simon said, I mean except by invitation. You can't just walk in. On the rest, yes, I agree, there should be trading relations. However in most towns this is quite explicitly limited to a trading quarter. The mere fact that you trade doesn't give you that much information, and you've already gotten information from trade. It's your main source.
But it's deeply imperfect for non-Greeks as your conversations aren't likely to be very long.
I have a lot of cool plans for many different factions, but it may just be that my priorities are misplaced. I'm very deeply interested in the historical and AH component whereas other people are far less so. This might be why; I am excited in the 'plot' components but people really just want to play out the turns of the game and experience the yearly life of Eretrian citizens. This can be a common pitfall for many QMs who get too excited about long-term plots or stuff that interests them more than players.
I do agree that I like the smaller stuff. I wouldn't want that to go away. I'm just having a hard time because these updates are unmanageable for me right now. I'd like to at least move forward at a turn per update except when there's something else going on but my turns have ballooned with all the detail I like putting in, which makes things harder.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
How much of this detail involves you resolving things that happen offscreen?
Cetashwayo
Lord of Ten Thousand Years
- Location
- Across the Horizon
It's not, really. I don't do a lot of off-screen stuff. I have a timeline of events but that was written before the game began. It's difficult to juggle different plots in foreign policy (if you've noticed the xenoparakletor section has ballooned) but that's more because I'm packing more details in per turn, not out of an overarching sense of duty to off-screen developments.
Most of the detail just tends to be writing very long posts for each single issue, and it's hard for me not to because I want to provide enough context, you know? And it's hard not to provide lots of information as I want players to make informed decisions. This particular situation with the Iapyges was partly me experimenting with providing less info, and I'm not totally sold
