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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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McLuvin said:
TBF I only proposed doing that after uniting all the Italiote and Epulian Greeks alongside the Iapgyians Kingdoms under a single Alliance against the Oscans, which makes the idea feasible.

Outside of that, there's no way I'm voting to go to war with them, no way, no how. I'd rather just build up our colonies in the Adriatic, finish eating the Messappi and Dauni and then upgrade the Temple Of The Divine Marriage, properly this time, as the greatest Temple in all Italia.
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Oh yeah, I've totally been plugging such an alliance myself.

It's just that I think most plausible prospects of that are like, probably a decade away at best, if we work consistently at it?

Kymai would probably be have to be the first in a whole list of outrages to get the various Italiote Greeks up off their arses, even if it's actively in their interest to do so.
 
Overall I feel as though this update can be summed up as:

Eretria. We may not be Athens, but we're the closest thing the West has got.
 
Cetashwayo said:
In the perspective of most people, including most Eretrians, the Oscans aren't a huge threat.
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I'm inclined to agree with most people here. The Oscans aren't currently a military threat to Eretria and the Epulian League.

A military expedition to save Kymia seems foolish. Success would be improbable, and come at a high cost. A large naval expedition to save as much as possible of the city's population however, that might just be feasible.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
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[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].

[x] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
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On second thought, I believe I am going to go against the grain on a specific issue.
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in Eretria [+800 Metics in Eretria, citizen ratio falls accordingly].

Because I think that we can deal with 8x troublemakers more easily than a tiny newborn city like Ankon or the new colony could deal with 1x.
 
[X] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].

[X] [Lykai] Spread them out through the Epulian League and colonies [+100 settlers in each Epulian city including Ankon and the colony chosen to be the primary colony for Eretria in the Adriatic Dodecanese].

[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
@Cetashwayo Can we provide citizenship on arrival for those we rescue from Kymai-- as part of the Afrexia ("Arrival") grant? I figure that because those of Kymai were assuredly citizens of the old city of Eretria, and since they're fleeing an advancing enemy force, they should be grandfathered in through the old citizenship grant.

[X] [Colony] Issa. The outer island of the Adriatic Dodecanese has fewer Liburnians settled on it and is an excellent transit point for Eretrians crossing the Adriatic [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Issa, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Pharos, -50 pop from Eretria].

[x] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
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An Eretria Founded Italiote League being floated around even as a rumor is going to lead to Syracuse, Corinth and Athens come barreling down our necks with a shitton of their massive reserve of silvers. Athens would do it simply because they dont need us becoming a Hellenic Hegemon while they and Sparta beat each other blue and black. Corinth doesnt need our Adriatic Empire being more secure.

As for Syracuse. *Points to the Update* Nuff said about their motivations. If looks could sack cities...
 
Satar said:
@Cetashwayo Can we provide citizenship on arrival for those we rescue from Kymai-- as part of the Afrexia ("Arrival") grant? I figure that because those of Kymai were assuredly citizens of the old city of Eretria, and since they're fleeing an advancing enemy force, they should be grandfathered in through the old citizenship grant.
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No, because of how founding a new city works. The citizens of that new city assuredly do not have Eretrian citizenship.
 
From what I've read on the previous thread and this one... Sooner or later, Eretia Eskhata would be called the City of Heroes.
 
The current vote seems ill-advised to me. As it stands, it's looking like we're going to spread out our colonists all throughout Eretria and the Epulian League. This negates the stability advantage of sending out angry metics who are dissatisfied with their place in the city out to the colonies by renewing the supply of angry metics; actually, it substantially increases that potential fifth column population in some areas such as Ankon. Then they're present as a network that forces hostile to us may rely on in each of our cities for much needed information, much as the planned Peuketii slave revolt from the first chapter. Furthermore, we leave our colonies in a relatively vulnerable state by not maximizing the number of people who are on them, particularly as Pharos has a large and restive population of barbaroi inclined to fight against us, and the Liburni may yet raid them to squish out such a provocative city in its most vulnerable infancy if it seems that they can get away with it to discourage further colonization attempts. We will not really be in a position to contest this if our triremes are all tied up for the next several years in trying to ferry the inhabitants of Kymai to who-knows-where from clear on the other side of Italy, let alone if we're in naval conflict with Rhegion or trying to raid the Campanian pastures from the sea as some have suggested; furthermore, with the Antipatrids and Exorians in power, we're not really lined up for Adriatic adventurism until the next elections.

I'd rather settle the inhabitants of Kymai together, in the new colony of Pharos. As full citizens in a league rather than their families being broken up and inducted to an underclass, their hatred will be lessened by the most it is possible under the circumstances; our Epulian League cities are left more stable, and Pharos has the greatest Hellenic settling population possible to render the new colony as impossible to dislodge. I admit that there is a question about the loyalty of these citizens to Eretria after having been pried from their homes, but consider this. Kerkyra is now at about the weakest state it has ever been; it is in no shape to launch some expedition to coup the island, not while it still recovers from its civil war and must provide Athens its due as a new member of the Delian League. For that matter, calling in Athens is rather unlikely we have had positive relations and worked to our mutual benefit as occurred just now in Sicily; it would lose Athens a precious source of grain and our positive ties to coup Pharos for the sake of Kerkyra which is already indebted to them anyway.

Furthermore, our unfettered immigration policy will soon begin to dilute them once it is demonstrated that this island is in fact safe by having that large initial population to ward off barbaroi attack. Consider how it was described when enacted:

After all, allowing colonial citizenship for a set period of twenty-four years would do two things; in the first place, it would weaken the clear bonds of citizenship in the colonies until such time that it was so tied to Eretria that the colonists could not imagine themselves being part of any other domain. When citizenship was "locked in" at the twenty-fourth year, a mixed amalgam of citizens would form an identity based not on their own unique circumstances, but on their origin: As colonists of Epulia.
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Our immigration policy is practically tailor made to minimize this as a problem. We'd be initially be at 600/1200 on Pharos and 200/600 on Issa being of Lykai, but over the course of 24 years of funding whoever wants to settle on the Adriatic Dodecanese from all of our League's lands (potentially the citizens of Kymai as well) they will constitute a small minority. Furthermore as citizens with full membership of the League it will take quite the offer to convince them to betray us and risk their privileges that could easily be lost, while if they are despised Metics they have little to lose.

Heck, even IF they did betray us, they'd still have to serve the purpose we established for the colony. We launched this expedition to create a fortified position near the Liburni from which to threaten them and dampen the piracy that has plagued Adriatic trade; the people of Pharos will inherently have to fight Liburni piracy to make that part of the world bearable to live in, heading off the threat before it can build up to a level to cause Eretia harm, and creating an Adriatic more hospitable to Greeks by minimization of piracy inherently benefit Eretria. Even if we lose in that case (which as I said looks quite unlikely with every potential party to do it being otherwise occupied in the limited window available before our settlement policy makes it a non-issue), we win.

If instead the people of Pharos get butchered, though, that discourages further colonization and means we'll have a more hostile neighborhood. It doesn't matter how loyal the people of the island are if they end up dead. As such, here is my vote:

[x] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[x] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].[/QUOTE]
[x] [Kymai] We cannot risk such an expedition [-10 talents per turn until city falls or the siege is relieved by another power, Eretria will provide grain shipments to the city and ferry refugees wherever they wish. Chance of picking up some of Kymai's citizens at random].

I'm not personally inclined to save Kymai because it's waaaay on out there and I'd rather have valuable foreign policy slots open for other stuff I care more about that's less zany.
 
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[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in Eretria [+800 Metics in Eretria, citizen ratio falls accordingly].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].

- these new metics might have some useful skills (hopefully glass-making?) That we can exploit.
 
[X] [Colony] Pharos. The excellent natural harbor at Pharos would make it a fine place for a central Adriatic port, even if it has a larger indigenous population. [-40 talents of grain and construction costs, 600 colonists found Pharos, -100 pop from Eretria, 400 colonists found Issa, -50 pop from Eretria].
[X] [Lykai] Settle them in the new Illyrian colonies [+600 settlers in primary Illyrian colony, +200 in second Illyrian colony].
[X] [Kymai] We must save the city! [Begins the Kymai Rescue Quest Chain. -1 foreign mission for each Demos in the next election. Demes will put aside any complicated or military expeditions until the next election cycle].
 
SKANTARIOS: It is folly to scatter malcontents across every colony; let us concentrate them in a single polis, so that their influence in the League may be contained. As for Kymai, we ought ship grain at our own expense and evacuate those willing to leave until the Oscans breach the walls or the world ends, whichever comes sooner.
 
My problem with voting to save Kymai is that, as I see it, Kymai is strategically dead in the water. It's besieged by an enemy that effectively doesn't have to worry about running out of supplies, it's isolated, and on top of that the nations best situated to assist it have an interest in seeing it gone. I admit that I'm at a bit of a loss for what we're supposed to do, realistically speaking.

The best-case scenario I can come up with is that we evacuate most of the population to somewhere in the Adriatic, turn the city into a military garrison, and then Oscans leave once they realize the loot inside the city's been replaced with a bunch of angry Eretrians. And that's going to be expensive and risky, especially since we'll be putting a lot of our troops in harm's way.
 
butchock said:
- these new metics might have some useful skills (hopefully glass-making?) That we can exploit.
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That's the single option most likely to fill them with the sort of spite to refuse doing so, though. They absolutely hate the idea of being reduced from citizens in their home of Lykai to being in the metic underclass of Eretria, even more so than being split up among the other cities. They'll still be around with their knowledge in the other options; but keeping them together as citizens on the island most closely preserves their status as it was on Lykai, so that seems to me to be the best chance of them keeping up their prior trades.

Cetashwayo said:
No, I mean they'd prefer to go home to Lykai. They'd really rather not be in Eretria, though.
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Horologer said:
My problem with voting to save Kymai is that, as I see it, Kymai is strategically dead in the water. It's besieged by an enemy that effectively doesn't have to worry about running out of supplies, it's isolated, and on top of that the nations best situated to assist it have an interest in seeing it gone. I admit that I'm at a bit of a loss for what we're supposed to do, realistically speaking.

The best-case scenario I can come up with is that we evacuate most of the population to somewhere in the Adriatic, turn the city into a military garrison, and then Oscans leave once they realize the loot inside the city's been replaced with a bunch of angry Eretrians. And that's going to be expensive and risky, especially since we'll be putting a lot of our troops in harm's way.
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The overall plan the majority of us are for ATM is just a straight-up evacuation of as many people as we can carry and convince.
 
Horologer said:
My problem with voting to save Kymai is that, as I see it, Kymai is strategically dead in the water. It's besieged by an enemy that effectively doesn't have to worry about running out of supplies, it's isolated, and on top of that the nations best situated to assist it have an interest in seeing it gone. I admit that I'm at a bit of a loss for what we're supposed to do, realistically speaking.

The best-case scenario I can come up with is that we evacuate most of the population to somewhere in the Adriatic, turn the city into a military garrison, and then Oscans leave once they realize the loot inside the city's been replaced with a bunch of angry Eretrians. And that's going to be expensive and risky, especially since we'll be putting a lot of our troops in harm's way.
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That is effectively most of the propositions people have put forward, not to actually fight the Oscans. Kymai is its people, and you'd be saving its people, not the physical city.
 
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