If memory serves, most types of seaweed prefer colder waters, such as the northern Pacific. The western coast of North America is particularly famous for its enormous kelp forests, although I don't think that particular variety is edible.

The Mediterranean is probably simply too warm for industrial seaweed farming, unfortunately. On the bright side, it has a huge variety of other sea life that is perfectly edible, and a fantastic selection of herbs to cook them with, so I think we'll be fine.
 
I don't know about the 'we don't know exists' part. Irish moss is eaten in Ireland and its vicinity so we can postulate that the Atlantic Celts could also be eating seaweeds as of last update's date. Rumors of eating plants from the sea could travel down the trade routes. Like...say, we are trying to connect with the Amber road, right? Or are we connected already? @Cetashwayo?

So, the upper end of the Amber road is where winged kelp is a culinary thing. Se could get rumors of sea vegetables via the Enetoi. Also someone is roleplaying as a trader who regularly goes to the Enetoi, how else could they get ice?

As for the why? Why not, when the result could be an increase in food production not only for Eretria but the entire Adriatic?
Ireland is really, really far away from us, as is the Atlantic Ocean. It's also pretty far from the Enetoi. So we'd need to get word of this to propagate through all sorts of people on over through a continent of people who probably don't much care about the weird customs of foreigners, get to the Enetoi (who we are not trading amber with as of now), and hear this talk about foreigners eating seaweed. Then instead of saying, "Crazy barbarians, seaweed isn't edible," we need to decide that we want to do that, and not only do we want to do it, but we want it so badly that we pay the Carthaginians all sorts of talents to sail out through the pillars of Hercules to what I'm pretty sure we consider as the ends of the world. Assuming that they even find it, since we have no idea where the stuff is grown as no one in our region knows of Ireland existing and that's quite a ways away from the Mediterranean in very barbarous lands. Then they need to bring it back alive on an insanely long and hazardous voyage. Then we can try to plant it and see whether it succeeds or not in our marine climate, at which point whatever intrepid soul who made this investment gets to hawk seaweed to people. The seaweed that everyone thinks is inedible due to the natural stuff around us.
 
Tell me, @kilopi505 , and I'm actually serious, I'm curious to know the answer, have you ever heard of the principle of comparative advantage?

It's looking for the perfect combo of amount and cheapness of 1 product.

As for not knowing how to farm seaweed, of course no one in Europe is going to know at THIS point. But a sustained period of trial and error by a few out of work metics bankrolled by a few rich and middle class Hellenes interested in the potential of a source of food that would need any besieging enemy to suicide attack our harbor to destroy, and advised by professional farmers, should get the ball rolling.

We have to start somewhere.
 
If we're going to start farming a difficult crop, I'd much rather my character's attempt to grow silphium in Epulia bear fruit.

And not just because my character is the one doing it; it would be a phenomenally valuable export for Eretria and I really want to see the societal consequences of a viable female contraceptive in our corner of the Classical Greek world.
 
Aphrodite about to strike you down for heresy. Nobody does matchmaking like Aphrodite. See Trojan War for more information.
I'll have plenty of time to lambast Aenean fanboys later on when Rome is on the rise and I'm all about those happy successful marriages. I'll leave the homewrecking to Aphrodite while Eretria enjoys a slew of happy Divine Marriages courtesy of Hera.
 
Ireland is really, really far away from us, as is the Atlantic Ocean. It's also pretty far from the Enetoi. So we'd need to get word of this to propagate through all sorts of people on over through a continent of people who probably don't much care about the weird customs of foreigners, get to the Enetoi (who we are not trading amber with as of now), and hear this talk about foreigners eating seaweed. Then instead of saying, "Crazy barbarians, seaweed isn't edible," we need to decide that we want to do that, and not only do we want to do it, but we want it so badly that we pay the Carthaginians all sorts of talents to sail out through the pillars of Hercules to what I'm pretty sure we consider as the ends of the world. Assuming that they even find it, since we have no idea where the stuff is grown as no one in our region knows of Ireland existing and that's quite a ways away from the Mediterranean in very barbarous lands. Then they need to bring it back alive on an insanely long and hazardous voyage. Then we can try to plant it and see whether it succeeds or not in our marine climate, at which point whatever intrepid soul who made this investment gets to hawk seaweed to people. The seaweed that everyone thinks is inedible due to the natural stuff around us.

I don't think the Carthaginians have to go THAT far for edible seaweed because in this quest they are in control of Gibraltar and the Atlantic coastline of Morrocco. I read somewhere the African shoreline also got them edible seaweeds. We just need to hear the idea of seaweed eating before asking the Carthago men if THEY know somthing about that from their travels and trading.


If memory serves, most types of seaweed prefer colder waters, such as the northern Pacific. The western coast of North America is particularly famous for its enormous kelp forests, although I don't think that particular variety is edible.

The Mediterranean is probably simply too warm for industrial seaweed farming, unfortunately. On the bright side, it has a huge variety of other sea life that is perfectly edible, and a fantastic selection of herbs to cook them with, so I think we'll be fine.

Hnm...could be. It's just...what a waste of a possibility damn it.
 
@kilopi505
Any "outside the box" ideas like that won't be permitted. Seriously, you've been told this time and time and time and time again. Anything that's not within the range of concepts readily produced by a Greek city-state of this era won't be allowed. This sort of "throw everything at the wall to see what might stick" isn't actually helpful. Instead it's just taking time away from discussing stuff that's actually relevant to the quest.
 
OOC: Is it a waste of a possibility if it was never a possibility in the first place?

Again, don't pick an endpoint (eg. seaweed farming) and then ask how to get to that endpoint. Think about what we have, and what problems we currently face. Then we can explore how our society would respond to these problems.

For instance, the problems that the multitude of diplomatic relations provide in our region caused an increased development in how these diplomatic relationships are managed. The problem of Mnemnon losing his role of Xenoparakletor despite his exemplary performance is what is causing the current discussion on honors.

Reading the discussions regarding the Spring festival as bickering between wives with the husbands looking on in confusion has made the discourse much more entertaining, btw.
 
to ensure there is less in-fighting and that there is more cooperation between classes.
There can be no cooperation between proletariat and bourgeoisie as the latter always seeks to oppress the former. Class struggle is a fact of life and to deny this is both reactionary and simply wrong.

*pause*

Wait, wrong quest.
 
There can be no cooperation between proletariat and bourgeoisie as the latter always seeks to oppress the former. Class struggle is a fact of life and to deny this is both reactionary and simply wrong.

*pause*

Wait, wrong quest.
...vote for Persephone so you do not have to give away coin?

Not sure how exactly you wanted me to respond to this? :p
@kilopi505
Any "outside the box" ideas like that won't be permitted. Seriously, you've been told this time and time and time and time again. Anything that's not within the range of concepts readily produced by a Greek city-state of this era won't be allowed. This sort of "throw everything at the wall to see what might stick" isn't actually helpful. Instead it's just taking time away from discussing stuff that's actually relevant to the quest.
The thing is...voting has died down for hours so no time has really been taken away?

There is no one new to convince so might as well dream of mermaids and kelp forests I guess.
 
If memory serves, most types of seaweed prefer colder waters, such as the northern Pacific. The western coast of North America is particularly famous for its enormous kelp forests, although I don't think that particular variety is edible.

The Mediterranean is probably simply too warm for industrial seaweed farming, unfortunately. On the bright side, it has a huge variety of other sea life that is perfectly edible, and a fantastic selection of herbs to cook them with, so I think we'll be fine.
To explain it a bit, biologically(incoming lies to children)?
Warm seas are too easy to grow in.
The resulting seaweed has little stored energy or structure because its mostly expended in growing quickly(as the more effective strategy in a resource rich environment, except for the variants that are poisonous so they don't get eaten), so its not nutritionally valuable except as raw fiber(and you could literally eat grass for that, it's cheaper to harvest and better to chew).

You'd probably be better off looking for crustaceans and shellfish(alas they don't keep well). And regular fish.

The Med is ridiculously rich in them due to shallow, warm seas with lots of algae and stuff which fish and shrimp like to eat. And is actually valuable.

Which goes back to salt. Salted fish good.
 
It's looking for the perfect combo of amount and cheapness of 1 product.
See, that's the problem. You're looking for "Solve Ancient Economics With This One Neat Trick!"

That's not how it works in real life, and that's not how it works in this quest.

Remember that millions of people, people who every few years would face some kind of famine conditions, lived all over Europe at this time, and for millennia before and after. They had time and opportunity to try a LOT of different thing, and under conditions when they were very desperate. It's a safe bet that there are no cheap, easy, obvious, perfect ways to grow the food that starving people need, existing right under the noses of people who were hungry enough to eat grass or shoe leather. If there are crops that were eaten elsewhere, but not in Europe, by people who still faced the problem of famine... well, that crop probably isn't categorically much better than what is eaten in Europe. Just different- or there would be no such thing as famine over in that other country.

In the handful of cases where there existed some 'super-crop' that actually makes a difference in an entire nation's way of life, the reason it isn't adopted worldwide is usually because of a HUGE obstacle to finding and adopting it- that is, the oceans that block the Old World and the New World. Those are out of our reach.

There is no magical perfect food that solves all our food problems that you just made up and that would vastly increase our food output if only we stopped doing farming and fishing and concentrated on this new food.

As for not knowing how to farm seaweed, of course no one in Europe is going to know at THIS point. But a sustained period of trial and error by a few out of work metics bankrolled by a few rich and middle class Hellenes interested in the potential of a source of food that would need any besieging enemy to suicide attack our harbor to destroy, and advised by professional farmers, should get the ball rolling.
And why would the people bankrolling this project expect it to work in the first place, as opposed to being an idiotic waste of time and money?

For that matter, does anyone do this in real life? DID people do this in real life for the thousands of years between the time of ancient Greece and modern times? If the answer is "nobody did" or "almost nobody did," then there is probably a good reason why we should expect to fail too, if we try.

The reason nobody has ever flown by flapping their arms, and why the Eretrians should not try to do this, is because it doesn't work. Not because there wasn't someone like you around to suggest it as a brilliant way to strengthen Eretria by giving us aerial reconnaissance.

We have to start somewhere.
Tell me, kilopi, are you familiar with the saying:

"We have to do something, this is something, therefore we have to do it?"

The key insight in cases like this is no, no we actually don't have to do anything. We don't "have to" waste time, energy, and money on a random scheme that may not (probably will not) succeed, in the vague hope
 
Wait, why we are talking about seaweed farming?

If we want to introduce a new kind of luxury product, why we don't focus on the many products cultivated in the ancient Mediterranean?

Right now I can thing about honey or grapes

In particular grapes, the poor soil of Greece is not so good for grapes, but our soil can become very useful.
If we add honey to the mix, we can become manufacturers and exporters of sweet wine.
 
Well, i just want to feed starving children but the GM said its not possible, so i'm just going back to my farm and shovel bull crap and wishing someone would produce iron shovels and invent wheelborrows!
 
For luxury goods, we're supplying seasilk, have murex as a strong possibility to start up, and if we can get around to it, hopefully amber.
 
Wait, why we are talking about seaweed farming?

If we want to introduce a new kind of luxury product, why we don't focus on the many products cultivated in the ancient Mediterranean?

Right now I can thing about honey or grapes

In particular grapes, the poor soil of Greece is not so good for grapes, but our soil can become very useful.
If we add honey to the mix, we can become manufacturers and exporters of sweet wine.
We actually export wine to southern Italy and northeastern Illyria already; it's two of our eight maritime trade routes.

Three of the other eight maritime trade routes consist of olive oil, a valued product that's probably in increasing demand in Greece as the war burns down olive groves- the olive tree takes a long time to mature, and when destroyed in a raid, olive production is hard to restore, which is how the olive branch became a symbol of peace in the first place.

We also export grain to Athens, and as noted, sea-silk cloth to Athens as well, and also Hellene pottery to the Etruscans who live on northern Adriatic coast of Italy.

Taking up bee-keeping and exporting honey is very far from a bad idea, now that you mention it. On the other hand... the thing I just said about comparative advantage. If we already have olive groves and vineyards, expanding our production of those commodities is probably going to be more profitable than starting new industries for export.

...

In the same way, enhancing the productivity of existing agriculture is usually a better choice than trying to import new crops. The problem is that there's no button we can push for "research better agricultural technology."
 
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Wait, why we are talking about seaweed farming?

If we want to introduce a new kind of luxury product, why we don't focus on the many products cultivated in the ancient Mediterranean?

Right now I can thing about honey or grapes

In particular grapes, the poor soil of Greece is not so good for grapes, but our soil can become very useful.
If we add honey to the mix, we can become manufacturers and exporters of sweet wine.

I wasn't going for a luxury product. I was going for a food source that takes only a handful of weeks to harvest to supplement Eretria's malnutrition problem.

Also, FUCK YEAH I finally found SOMETHING. Fuck shit I should have been using a desktop to search instead of a cellphone.

Chefs are fighting to get their hands on this Italian delicacy

Salsola soda is a Mediterranean native plant, growing in coastal regions and can be irrigated with SEAWATER.

Also, I FUCKING SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT EGYPT FOR ANSWERS TO THE SEAWEED QUESTION! AND IT'S A FREAKING STUDY ON WHAT SEAWEED SPECIES ARE AVAILABLE AND EDIBLE FOR POSSIBLE HUMAN CONSUMPTION OF ALL THINGS!

Chemical composition of some seaweed from Mediterranean Sea coast, Egypt

Ulva Lactuca is present in Alexandria's shores. Ulva Lactuca is also present in the British Isles and Ireland. So Ulva Lactuca should also be present in the Adriatic Sea. And Ulva Intestinalis is also there.

Gracillaria Compressa is present IN THE ADRIATIC SEA. So is Codium Tomentosum, and Colpemenia Sinuosa.

Pterocladia Capillacea is there. So is Sargassum Linifolium.

Ok. So the gamechanger is Ulva Lactuca, Ulva Intestinalis, Colpemania Sinuosa and Codium Tomentosum are good to eat from picking, just clean them up and you're good to eat it.

But since trying something new is an impossibility, then there all these seaweeds lie. Hidden in the shallow depths of this quest's Epulian League's shoreline.

"Citizen Hermesdora Eretriazenis then spoke to the Assembly for fifteen minutes on the value of chewing seaweed to strengthen one's teeth like an otter."

You're a freaking fortune teller.. Yeah the report does say something about significant amounts of calcium per gram of seaweed. Not only that but...

Table 2 illustrates the average concentration of some elements in red, green and brown seaweed species. The present results showed the same elements ordering in seaweed species, except in brown seaweeds, iron (Fe) seems to be higher than zinc (Zn); F > Na > K > Ca > Mg > Zn > Fe > Mn > Co > Cd > Ni > Cu > Cr. Also, red seaweed species contain the highest iron (789.00 ± 40.02 μg/g) and zinc (1,088.67 ± 1,998.25 μg/g) average concentrations. In contrast, brown seaweeds have the lowest iron (40.26 ± 4.05 μg/g) and zinc (20.91 ± 1.36 μg/g) average ones. Whereas, it was stated that the elements content in seaweeds may be dependent on various environmental factors including; concentrations of elements in water (Andrade et al. 2004), interactions between elements, salinity, pH, light intensity, and metabolic factors such as dilution of element contents due to seaweed growth (Zbikowski et al. 2006). Also, concentrations of elements in seaweeds are regulated to a large extent by metabolic requirements (Zbikowski et al. 2006). Red, green, and brown seaweeds give Ca/Mg averages of 2.23 ± 0.98, 5.41 ± 4.10, and 2.89 ± 0.58, respectively (Table 2). Thus, green seaweeds supply better calcium sources than the red and brown ones. Accordingly, the high significant correlation between calcium and magnesium (r = 0.4969; p < 0.05) may be accompanied with the substitution of calcium by magnesium in calcite seaweed's component. Also, green seaweeds show smaller average Na and K than red and brown seaweeds (Table 2). Whereas, sodium and potassium in the present data are strongly related (r = 0.4677; p < 0.05) as they play an important role in the electrolyte balance (Krishnaiah et al. 2008). It was mentioned that seaweeds living in ocean containing predominantly Na and their salts. Some seaweed accumulates more K and their salts than Na. However, potassium is an essential element for the growth and metabolic activities of plants and seaweeds (Sivakumar and Arunkumar 2009). The K/Na balance is regarded to be important for people who take diuretics, to control hypertension and suffer from excessive excretion of potassium (Cutler 2006; Zillich et al. 2006). Elements are also important as constituents of bones, teeth, soft tissues, hemoglobin, muscle, blood, and nerve cells, and are vital for overall mental and physical well being (Miyake et al. 2005; Kuda and Ikemori 2009).

But again, since trying something new is impossible, then all this is useless. Just fucking useless.

...at the very least, drinking the soup of boiled seaweeds ought to introduce some essential elements into the drinker's body to help alleviate malnutrition.
 
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It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter what harebrained scheme you throw in, improving the world isn't permitted in this quest. The point of the quest is that it's an ancient culture, which means giving negative shits about anything like that sort of thing.
 
Well, i just want to feed starving children but the GM said its not possible, so i'm just going back to my farm and shovel bull crap and wishing someone would produce iron shovels and invent wheelborrows!
I mean...

Don't assume that the ancients were stupid? They were at LEAST as smart as you and me. If there was a way for them to avoid starvation, and they didn't hear of it, its probably because that way was beyond their ability to reach. There were global trade routes all over the world. Heck, the Romans made an effort to, and succeeded in, stealing silkworms and mulberry plants from China. If there was a super crop that prevented starvation within our reach, someone would have gotten it by now. That Empire would then be spreading it all over the place.

I wasn't going for a luxury product. I was going for a food source that takes only a handful of weeks to harvest to supplement Eretria's malnutrition problem.

Also, FUCK YEAH I finally found SOMETHING. Fuck shit I should have been using a desktop to search instead of a cellphone.

Chefs are fighting to get their hands on this Italian delicacy

Salsola soda is a Mediterranean native plant, growing in coastal regions and can be irrigated with SEAWATER.

Also, I FUCKING SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOOKING AT EGYPT FOR ANSWERS TO THE SEAWEED QUESTION! AND IT'S A FREAKING STUDY ON WHAT SEAWEED SPECIES ARE AVAILABLE AND EDIBLE FOR POSSIBLE HUMAN CONSUMPTION OF ALL THINGS!

Chemical composition of some seaweed from Mediterranean Sea coast, Egypt

Ulva Lactuca is present in Alexandria's shores. Ulva Lactuca is also present in the British Isles and Ireland. So Ulva Lactuca should also be present in the Adriatic Sea. And Ulva Intestinalis is also there.

Gracillaria Compressa is present IN THE ADRIATIC SEA. So is Codium Tomentosum, and Colpemenia Sinuosa.

Pterocladia Capillacea is there. So is Sargassum Linifolium.

Ok. So the gamechanger is Ulva Lactuca, Ulva Intestinalis, Colpemania Sinuosa and Codium Tomentosum are good to eat from picking, just clean them up and you're good to eat it.

But since trying something new is an impossibility, then there all these seaweeds lie. Hidden in the shallow depths of this quest's Epulian League's shoreline.



You're a freaking fortune teller.. Yeah the report does say something about significant amounts of calcium per gram of seaweed. Not only that but...



But again, since trying something new is impossible, then all this is useless. Just fucking useless.

...at the very least, drinking the soup of boiled seaweeds ought to introduce some essential elements into the drinker's body to help alleviate malnutrition.

Here is a question to pose. Can you eat this seaweed and ONLY this seaweed and survive? Will it grow adjacent to our city harbor, or do you have to go out of the city to find conditions amenable for the seaweed to grow?

If either of those questions are not true, then the seaweed does nothing for us that any other crop does not already do and you can argue that we already eat it at least a little bit. This isn't a super food, its just another kind of food. Seaweed isn't going to save us from malnutrition or starvation.
 
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Dareios: "I'm not going to eat fuckin' seaweed, and the next person who suggests I do will get a kick against their behind. I mean, you do realize that that's the kind of stuff they feed cows with, right? That's your great "solution" to hunger, make us eat like cows? Get this guy out of here!"
 
It's not going to happen. It doesn't matter what harebrained scheme you throw in, improving the world isn't permitted in this quest. The point of the quest is that it's an ancient culture, which means giving negative shits about anything like that sort of thing.

This isn't actually the case, and I hoped we'd managed to clear this up one of the last five times it was discussed.

We can absolutely change the world, and Eretria already has, in several significant ways. Diplomacy and statecraft, for example, have advanced far beyond where they did historically in Italy, thanks to Eretria's influence. We have nearly eliminated slavery, and have far more open immigration policy. Our administration is actually worthy of the name, yet has strong checks against tyranny. A woman was our sacred officer of the Mint, and the status of women in Eretria has seen gradual but steady improvement.

The issue is that whatever changes we make need to make sense within our historical and cultural context, and happen for reasons that would make sense within that context. This means that just randomly searching around for "improvements" to make is probably the wrong way to go about things. It actually totally elides the interesting -and still very relevant- organic process by which innovations and developments happen. Establishing that evolutionary process is actually the crucial bit.

But if we can find reasons for interesting and happy things to happen within the context of the secondary world of the Quest, for reasons which make sense in that context, they can absolutely happen. Our recent ventures into maritime insurance backed by the Temple of Ploutos, for example, promises some quite interesting things! But it is slow, patient work, and needs careful consideration. Often trying to force it is not the best way forward.

So let's cheer up a bit, okay?
 
I mean...

Don't assume that the ancients were stupid? They were at LEAST as smart as you and me. If there was a way for them to avoid starvation, and they didn't hear of it, its probably because that way was beyond their ability to reach. There were global trade routes all over the world. Heck, the Romans made an effort to, and succeeded in, stealing silkworms and mulberry plants from China. If there was a super crop that prevented starvation within our reach, someone would have gotten it by now. That Empire would then be spreading it all over the place.



Here is a question to pose. Can you eat this seaweed and ONLY this seaweed and survive? Will it grow adjacent to our city harbor, or do you have to go out of the city to find conditions amenable for the seaweed to grow?

If either of those questions are not true, then the seaweed does nothing for us that any other crop does not already do and you can argue that we already eat it at least a little bit. This isn't a super food, its just another kind of food. Seaweed isn't going to save us from malnutrition or starvation.
Oh yes, i know this, i was just making a joke on my PCs expense.
 
Folks, I appreciate the enthusiasm from those who are shutting down suggestions but I can tell people that their children will just have to die on my own. In fact I relish the opportunity to tell a man in mourning that Plutarch said babies are plants until they are a week old because the umbelical cord is a stem, so really you should not get anymore worried about it than a failed bean sprout.
 
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