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Magna Graecia: Titanomachia (A City State Quest)

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@Cetashwayo

A quick question, I understand why we have limited the citizenship to only children born of citizens since there is for example an argument to be made that strong familial connections to groups outside the polis have the potential of weakening the ties that bind it together (and of course the opposite is also true in that ties between families in the polis bind it together). But I wondered how difficult it would be to weaken that rule enough to allow for marriages within the Epulian League to happen without that loss and thus strengthen the ties between our cities even more.
 
[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Return of Persephone.Favored by many married women, the return of Persephone is a re-enaction of the drama of Persephone's departure from Hades. Having been married happily to Hades for six months of the year, for in this interpretation she is not kidnapped but seduced away from her domineering mother, the young Persephone must say goodbye to her beloved husband and lord of the underworld. Persephone is presented here as a traditional woman, but also an icon of femininity, beloved by many women in Eretria for giving them someone to look up to. Embued in mystery and icons of the dead, the Return of Persephone is a festival that celebrates the transition from winter to spring and from death to life, the birth of new children, and draws heavily from the Eleusinian mysteries near Athenai, that famed mystery cult.
[X] [Winter] The Ascendency of Zeus Olympios. A monumental festival that celebrates the military victory of Zeus Olympios of the titans and the end of the titanomachia, the war against them. The ascendency has become increasingly popular in Eretria due to the influence of her olympic contestants who have been so shaken by the recently completed statue of Zeus at Olympia that have returned to their faith more vigorous than ever. The true supreme God of the Hellenes, Zeus deserves to be celebrated with vym and vigor in a military and civic parade. During the Ascendency, there is a battle among those representing the titans and olympians, with brawling and wooden swords, and a competition involving a ball which represents control of the heavens between two teams.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.

Friends, we should accept the Tarantine terms. The truest defeat of an enemy comes from making them a friend, for a destroyed foe gives nothing while a friend offers much. As such, this deal, which costs us little but grants us great opportunities, should be grasped with both hands.

I favour the festivals of Persephone and of Zeus. Persephone is an inspiration to all women and should be honoured as such, while Zeus brought us back to the proper path of wisdom when we strayed. Also, it wouldn't sit right with me to pass over the king of the gods for his brother no matter how much Poseidon has done. There is a proper order of things, after all.

Finally, offering a token of recognition to the best of us will not lead to tyranny any more than our graveyard has. Instead, it will showcase to our youths who they should admire and seek to emulate. As these honours will not be awarded without the approval of the city as a whole there is nothing to fear from it.

So speaks Kaidos the Messenger.
Adhoc vote count started by Admiral Skippy on Jun 9, 2019 at 8:41 AM, finished with 3177 posts and 78 votes.
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[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Return of Persephone.Favored by many married women, the return of Persephone is a re-enaction of the drama of Persephone's departure from Hades. Having been married happily to Hades for six months of the year, for in this interpretation she is not kidnapped but seduced away from her domineering mother, the young Persephone must say goodbye to her beloved husband and lord of the underworld. Persephone is presented here as a traditional woman, but also an icon of femininity, beloved by many women in Eretria for giving them someone to look up to. Embued in mystery and icons of the dead, the Return of Persephone is a festival that celebrates the transition from winter to spring and from death to life, the birth of new children, and draws heavily from the Eleusinian mysteries near Athenai, that famed mystery cult.
[X] [Winter] The Ascendency of Zeus Olympios. A monumental festival that celebrates the military victory of Zeus Olympios of the titans and the end of the titanomachia, the war against them. The ascendency has become increasingly popular in Eretria due to the influence of her olympic contestants who have been so shaken by the recently completed statue of Zeus at Olympia that have returned to their faith more vigorous than ever. The true supreme God of the Hellenes, Zeus deserves to be celebrated with vym and vigor in a military and civic parade. During the Ascendency, there is a battle among those representing the titans and olympians, with brawling and wooden swords, and a competition involving a ball which represents control of the heavens between two teams.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.

I, Isisgas son of Euplastos, say that we should accept the tarentine terms. Also in my opinion the return of spring, of life, after a cold winter is worth a celebration. The same goes for a festival in the honour of mighty Zeus king of the skies and the wind, some might even say the breath of live. Besides who does not enjoy the wooden sword duels. I certainly do. Last but not least, the veneration of great heroes, the great servants of our democracy is not a deification but a chance for us to remember, to learn of great triumphs. I Isigas apologize for how hasty and terse I sound but there is just so much on my plate today.
 
The issue with the festival of Zeus, as I see it, is that it's a festival, and it sounds kind of less exciting in comparison to the Conquest of the Seas. Like fundamentally, it's meant to be a good day out, you know?

(Just to preempt anyone here who say that we need to show piety, all of the festivals are pious. We're building a giant temple to Zeus and an entire artificial hill to show our piety. If there were a notable difference in piety between the choices, or any real problem in that area, there would not even be a choice. That is not the discussion we need to be having.)

Like, compare the two. In the Ascendency of Zeus Olympios, there's a military parade, and a mock battle. Fine, fine. Presumably also they slaughter some animals and our citizens get a bit of meat.



It's fine.

In the Conquest of the Seas, to start with, our citizens are getting to eat "fantastic seafood". Now, remember, fish and shellfish are cheaper and more abundant than meat for us, sitting on the Adriatic as we do. So drachma for drachma, our citizens get much more protein in the winter months when diets are very plain indeed.




But then, whilst they're eating their grilled fish or their cuttlefish stew made with real squid ink, or whatever, with warm bellies with that amazing full feeling you get that feels like they've been dipped in lead, then, THEN, do you know what they get to watch?

A FUCKING MOCK SEA BATTLE



PAINTED BOATS, RAMMING EACHOTHER WHILST WATCHING

CHILDREN SQUEAL IN DELIGHT




KRAKENS AND DOLPHINS, FIGHTING IN THE HARBOUR OF THE FIFTY MASTS

ROWERS TIPPING ONE ANOTHER INTO THE WATER AND EVERYONE SHOUTING



How cool would that be?

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with the festival of Zeus. But imagine which festival you would most like to go and see, or take a couple of ten year olds to go and watch. Admittedly, my main worry in the latter case would be stopping the little buggers from jumping in the harbour, but that's the joy of childcare.

The Conquest of the Seas just seems like an incredible day out for all the family to me.
 
[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.

I, Hermesdora Eretriazenis, do vote for the following!

I vote to accept the terms laid out by the Tarentines, so that Thurii may receive Herakleia Lucania and so we may finally have genuine long lasting peace with Taras!

I vote for Eretria to celebrate the Courting of Ploutos and The Conquest of the Sea for the following reasons.

For the Conquest of the Sea, it may serve as additional training for our rowers in the art of naval warfare! As for the Couting of Ploutos, it serves as a source of financial relief to the poorest families of Eretria by giving out money to the poorest women of the sea!

And I vote pass the motion regarding the reward of the Wreath of Apollon. For this measure serves as an acceptable outlet for any ambitious individual to pursue instead of...well...becoming a tyrant!

I have cast my vote, and shall now return to the athletics field. So that I may further practice the art of javelin throwing! I hope that in the next Olympics I may represent our city in the field of javelin throwing!
 
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Admiral Skippy said:
The issue with the festival of Zeus, as I see it, is that it's a festival, and it sounds kind of less exciting in comparison to the Conquest of the Seas. Like fundamentally, it's meant to be a good day out, you know?

(Just to preempt anyone here who say that we need to show piety, all of the festivals are pious. We're building a giant temple to Zeus and an entire artificial hill to show our piety. If there were a notable difference in piety between the choices, or any real problem in that area, there would not even be a choice. That is not the discussion we need to be having.)

Like, compare the two. In the Ascendency of Zeus Olympios, there's a military parade, and a mock battle. Fine, fine. Presumably also they slaughter some animals and our citizens get a bit of meat.



It's fine.

In the Conquest of the Seas, to start with, our citizens are getting to eat "fantastic seafood". Now, remember, fish and shellfish are cheaper and more abundant than meat for us, sitting on the Adriatic as we do. So drachma for drachma, our citizens get much more protein in the winter months when diets are very plain indeed.




But then, whilst they're eating their grilled fish or their cuttlefish stew made with real squid ink, or whatever, with warm bellies with that amazing full feeling you get that feels like they've been dipped in lead, then, THEN, do you know what they get to watch?

A FUCKING MOCK SEA BATTLE



PAINTED BOATS, RAMMING EACHOTHER WHILST WATCHING

CHILDREN SQUEAL IN DELIGHT




KRAKENS AND DOLPHINS, FIGHTING IN THE HARBOUR OF THE FIFTY MASTS

ROWERS TIPPING ONE ANOTHER INTO THE WATER AND EVERYONE SHOUTING



How cool would that be?

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with the festival of Zeus. But imagine which festival you would most like to go and see, or take a couple of ten year olds to go and watch. Admittedly, my main worry in the latter case would be stopping the little buggers from jumping in the harbour, but that's the joy of childcare.

The Conquest of the Seas just seems like an incredible day out for all the family to me.
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OK I'm sold.

[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.
[X] [Honors] Pass the motion proposing the reward of a Wreath of Apollon and inscribing on the Painted Relief of Athene as the highest rewards that can be given to a citizen, to be decided by a 60% vote in the assembly for the wreath and an 80% vote for the Painted Stone.
 
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I think that the Ploutonian cult is going to be a lot more interesting than reprising the Eleusinian mysteries. Culturally, we're already lacking; retelling Athenian stories as part of our founding narrative isn't going to lead to the cultural efflorescence we want.

Also, it gives a publicly and religiously sanctioned role in public life to older women and widows - that's experience, skills and talent that would otherwise be culturally pressured to do nothing except mourn their husbands.
 
Ploutos is also another name for Hades. He is a god that was not widely worshipped so it would be another way we are different and weird.
 
SirKaid said:
Finally, offering a token of recognition to the best of us will not lead to tyranny any more than our graveyard has. Instead, it will showcase to our youths who they should admire and seek to emulate. As these honours will not be awarded without the approval of the city as a whole there is nothing to fear from it.
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In truth, tyranny is a distant fear. Would Mnemnon seek to become a tyrant? I think not. His children, should they serve the city well? I doubt it. His grandchildren? Unlikely. Those of his great grandchildren who distinguish themselves? If by then Eretria is at risk of falling to a tyrant, there are sure to be other reasons that are more important.

No, I think there is a greater problem here, and that is that it goes against the distinctions between an Eretrian of arete and any other Greek! We are the best city with the finest citizens, though not by any great margin. I say we must treasure the traditions that set us aside from other Greeks. We are a city that prizes humble service. A city where a fake beard will not incur mockery if the words coming from behind the beard are wise and worthy of respect. We are the city that the gods journey to reach in order to wed. The city where fine oratory and good lifting technique are joined together to make a superior democracy. The hospitable city where those fleeing the persecution of war or tyranny may find shelter and respect.

We are not merely Greeks, we are the fathers of Epulia, and I reject the notion that we should become a city of stuffed tunics like Athens!

These are the words of Kleon son of Aristophanes! And yes, my rock is bigger today. And though my back feels the cost of it, I say this matter is worth it!
 
Secretariat said:
I think that the Ploutonian cult is going to be a lot more interesting than reprising the Eleusinian mysteries. Culturally, we're already lacking; retelling Athenian stories as part of our founding narrative isn't going to lead to the cultural efflorescence we want.

Also, it gives a publicly and religiously sanctioned role in public life to older women and widows - that's experience, skills and talent that would otherwise be culturally pressured to do nothing except mourn their husbands.
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Both of these give some more leeway in the public life to women, though, and Ploutos emphasizes class difference in a way Persephone does not. It isn't really as simple as this one is better for women than the other.

Having an officially sanctioned holiday focused around women is radical regardless of which one it is.
 
Secretariat said:
I think that the Ploutonian cult is going to be a lot more interesting than reprising the Eleusinian mysteries. Culturally, we're already lacking; retelling Athenian stories as part of our founding narrative isn't going to lead to the cultural efflorescence we want.
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OK that is interesting and a good point IMO.

Also, it gives a publicly and religiously sanctioned role in public life to older women and widows - that's experience, skills and talent that would otherwise be culturally pressured to do nothing except mourn their husbands.
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I feel like that's happening anyway in Eretria.

As to the issue of the class difference... eh. It's like 420 BC, you can't have everything. The idea of making Eretrian culture distinctive enough to be telling an entirely different canon of myths (which may survive in competition with the Athens-centric version of Greek mythology we got) is compelling to me.
 
Although drawn from the mysteries, the actual content of the Return of Persephone entirely reframes the myth away from any kidnapping happening and instead assumes a loving marriage. It has only a superficial connection to Eleusis.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Both of these give some more leeway in the public life to women, though, and Ploutos emphasizes class difference in a way Persephone does not. It isn't really as simple as this one is better for women than the other.

Having an officially sanctioned holiday focused around women is radical regardless of which one it is.
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I read the Persephone cult's celebrating "traditional femininity" as having overtones of "submission to (male) authority," as opposed to being actors in their own right. Was that what you were intending to convey, or did you mean something else, here?
 
[X] [Taras] Accept the Tarentine terms.
[X] [Spring] The Courting of Ploutos. A more humorous and commercially oriented women's festival, the courting of Ploutos tells the story of Ploutos' attempts to flee from the bounds of marriage and love in favor of commerce. Celebrated in Eretria as the source of the city's trade wealth, Ploutos is surprisingly popular among widows and wealthy women because of this particular tale's affirmation of the importance of women to wealth. After fleeing from every potential mate, Aphrodite grows incredibly frustrated and crafts Nomisnia, a demigoddess who is good at creating wealth as Ploutos; the two immediately become competitors, further frustrating her. Finally, at last, Hermes intervenes, and convinces the two that they would have double the wealth if they were married, and at last the two accept, finding love in mutual success at business. The festival is celebrated through a dramatic re-enactment, dances between lovers, and a literal shower of drachmas given to the poorest women of the city.
[X] [Winter] The Conquest of the Sea. A grand festival involving mock sea battles and swimming contests which celebrates Poseidon's subjugation of all the creatures of the sea. Poseidon is a popular god across Italia and Sicilia, in sharp contrast to his sometimes muted worship among Ionians on the Mainland. The Conquest of the Sea, conducted in the chilly mid-winter, promises to bring fantastic seafood to the mouths of hungry Eretrians and celebrate the city's naval and commercial traditions as well as thank the Gods for the first voyage that Eretria ever undertook. The greatest part of the festival is the battle between rowers in painted boats representing the dolphins allied to Poseidon and the krakens who oppose him, who conduct a mock ram battle with their boats, trying to tip each other over in the harbor of the fifty masts.

Of course we take the festival for more god-shipping.
And also regular shipping
 
Secretariat said:
I read the Persephone cult's celebrating "traditional femininity" as having overtones of "submission to (male) authority," as opposed to being actors in their own right. Was that what you were intending to convey, or did you mean something else, here?
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Women in many parts of Hellas were part of the background scenery. You are taking a very early modern or Victorian mode on this question but here the real problem wasn't that women existed in a state of subjugation but that many men only grudgingly accepted that women existed at all. It isn't really just about the ordinary pre-modern misogyny, but the visceral and explicit hatred of women that is displayed by, for example, Hesiod. Though this was never the case everywhere, it remains a norm among some of the more literate class to the point that the mere act of women having stories about them or being depicted erotically in the Hellenistic era was an achievement because then it reflected that men actually cared about them.
 
I kinda don't like idea of Pluto wining because it looks like some sort of celebration reserved mostly for the rich instead of entire city.
Heck it puts emphasis on rich women.
 
Yeah, Classical misogyny could often verge into A Level Even Further Beyond.

In my view both the festivals of Persephone and Ploutos are pretty good. It makes me very happy that we're celebrating a festival centered around women at all.

My main motivation for preferring the Courting of Ploutos, in all honesty, is because it gives money to poor women. On a lot of levels I like that a lot.

Star said:
Heck it puts emphasis on rich women.
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Ironically, it's also the one that helps poor women.

It's funny how that works out, isn't it?
 
Yeah.

Some of the more excessive ancient classical cultures are perfect illustrations of the difference between sexism ("Bob thinks women are lesser-than as compared to men") and misogyny ("Bob actively hates women and thinks that it's good for women to be hurting on general principles").

It's notable that we invented "sexism" as a modern word precisely to describe policies that, while not meeting the classical definition of 'misogyny,' were nonetheless bad. Because 'misogyny' refers to a hatred of women so intense that even by pre-20th century standards it was rather intense and notable.

Obviously, institutional sexism and misogyny can be tied together and most sexist societies enshrine at least some misogyny. But many ancient Greek cultures took misogyny waaaay out to extremes.

Admiral Skippy said:
Ironically, it's also the one that helps poor women.

Funny how that works out, isn't it?
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The closest you got to the modern (post-Christendom) concept of charity in ancient Greco-Roman culture was "Aw yeah, look how awesome I am, giving all this money to the poor!" One of the key drivers of a rich man's prestige was how many hangers-on, followers, and servants he could financially support despite them being relatively unproductive.

Generosity was tied up into arete- we actually model this in our quest with the Magnificence stat, which is a measure of how generous you are, not how rich you are.
 
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