It's a Girl's World -- And Lilly wants Adventure

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Proposed write ins:

[X] [Bfig] Artefacts
[X] [FonL] Write In: Going alone could be dangerous. Tell Captain Martin that your friend Myah is in danger. Ask him to accompany you to see her. Determine what is wrong, and do your best to fix it.
[X] [TT] One question a day, or whenever I feel my reserve has become completely full. (Default+, how the Ladder has been working but tweaked to not waste potential when at full reserve. Operates best at pre-warning of long-term dangers.)
[X] [NGC] Write in: We need to find out if there is any way to use our power to get Zach a different ethos, perhaps one related to Flower, or guide the expression of the ethos he will receive so that it does not harm in in body or mind. Try consulting Evie and Petal for advice, and use a daily question to ask The Ladder if there is a way. We have newfound power, and we will find a way to grant him both safety and his dreams.
[X] [NIV] The Lantern's Eye: "Find Penelope" (2 Years Ago, West Narisell)

Note: If all else fails, we could cut Zach off from an ethos and give him an artifact to make up for it, if we choose that path. But I would like to try to help him, if there is a way.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
We would have the advantages of proximity and sole focus. We also have warning of what will occur, so we can prepare.

...perhaps an Artifact could also solve the problem, somehow. What if we made something that preserved Zach's body and mind from unwanted changes?

Edit: He wants to be a carpenter, a worker of plants. We could try asking the inner Lilly for help connecting him to something suitable. She might know how. And knows Lilly's power better than Lilly does. She would know better if any plans to stand against or divert Manoth might be plausible.
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Are Inverted Ethea the only thing Manoth does? If we can somehow get Zach from an Inverted Ethea to something else within his purview that might be somewhat easier. We might be able to "bribe" him by taking an Ethos from him ourselves if there's one that fits our parameters. Don't really want anything to do with Inverted Ethea now, even if we can somehow mitigate the self-destructive factors that's going to make dealing with everyone else even harder and bring more attention on us.
 
Alright. Two questions here.
1. Do we have any way of reasonably guessing what sources Zach's ethos may have?
2. How biased is the captain? How much of his information can we reasonably trust?

Assuming we can trust his info, Inverted Ethos are always destabilizing to the user, not just nasty.

Now, this would probably be a horrible idea, but could we Invert our own Ethae? Say, concentrating on all of our bitterness to warp it? Would that only work after we had a much worse defeat? Or maybe you could try and get Evie to contact Manoth once she can talk better. Hopefully, it won't ever come to this, though.
 
[X] [FonL] The current Plan works.
[X] [FonL] Just dropping in on someone in the middle of the night and unloading all our amazing new powers on them after they've been suffering for weeks is not exactly normal behavior, nor is it likely the best response. We just saw how envious of us Zach is, so let's try to approach Myah with some more tact. We've seen how weird Essence looks around Myah and since then have massively improved our Essence perception. Let's take a moment to investigate first before we stroll into her home and offer help, check if we can see what essence links there are inside the house and between Myah and other people (or if Myah is even home in the first place). Chances are high that she has an Inverted Essence Ethos or is being affected by one, so we'll want to investigate first before we blindly trust what she says. Once we've done that, we can try to wake her up and talk to her to find out what's wrong and how we can help.


[X] [WiT] Right back home, you'll need to check in on dad again and make sure everything is fine.


[X] [Bfig] Dissolution <- Undoing the world.
[X] [Bfig] Relations <- Entwining the world.
[X] [Bfig] Constructs <- The manifestation of wonderous materials.


[X] [TaM] Riemannian Geometer
[X] [TaM] Whispers of Life

[X] [TaM] Ply the Line
[X] [TaM] Imposition of Intent

[X] [TaM] True Song} (Investigate Repairs
[X] [TaM] Objective Awareness

[X] [TaM] Rest State


[X] [TT] One question a day, or whenever I feel my reserve has become completely full. (Default+, how the Ladder has been working but tweaked to not waste potential when at full reserve. Operates best at pre-warning of long-term dangers.)


[X] [NIV] A walk amongst the Daisies (Preteen girl in Lira)
[X] [NIV] The end of the Second Era (Cosmic Lore)
 
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Half Moon said:
Alright. Two questions here.
1. Do we have any way of reasonably guessing what sources Zach's ethos may have?
2. How biased is the captain? How much of his information can we reasonably trust?

Assuming we can trust his info, Inverted Ethos are always destabilizing to the user, not just nasty.

Now, this would probably be a horrible idea, but could we Invert our own Ethae? Say, concentrating on all of our bitterness to warp it? Would that only work after we had a much worse defeat? Or maybe you could try and get Evie to contact Manoth once she can talk better. Hopefully, it won't ever come to this, though.
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Well on the subject of Inverted Ethea at least, the Ladder seems to support him. It's projections are in line with what he said.
 
Okay, so there are so many problems that we have to solve, and most of them we probably don't even know of. Which is why the first thing I want is to set {The Ladder} on "Default+" state to get that list of unknowns filled out with all the horrible things waiting Lilly and the world. Hopefully the {Contention Prognosticator} can pick up the slack for the more short-term problems by at least warning about the danger, if not give us an optimized solution on the spot. Relating to that, getting an explanation from Madam Silva on how Divination works? Getting that sorted out now while we can will be vital for the future, when we will be trying to navigate the web of other future-seers and such with minimal footprint to avoid giving away too much about the [Cleaver of Fortune].

On what abilities to train while walking, repairing the {True Song} should probably take priority over all else so that we can actually get through the two people close to Lilly need in help, without her being shut out by the hurt those two are feeling. But on the second... wouldn't the {Riemannian Geometer} be pretty damn useful to train while going from one place to other? Not sure if twisting space through it will allow faster travel times, but beyond combat applications it will at least allow Lilly (and likely anyone traveling with her, like her family) by its description to be harder to track. That ability might become necessary sooner than we wish for, so getting it ready ASAP would be prudent, I think. It also seems to be a bit complicated to safely train in combat, so getting first at least a basic understanding is probably for the best.

But on even bigger things, I think that Relations is the way to go for the first and favored ability from the [Towering Edifice to Heaven] for Lilly. The ability to tinker with the Ethea of others which might become necessary very soon. I'm hoping that we could work modifying Zach's link to his incoming inverted Ethos, but "just" giving some level of immortality to Lilly's loved ones would be a huge boon. As would be synergizing her own abilities even more than currently for further gains. Also, Lilly's already existing focus on connections makes me want to takes this for the thematics and narrative reasons.

Unfortunately, I don't currently have any good ideas for the write-ins, or like any of the existing ones. I might try cooking up something later, or add ones that I like if somebody comes up with something that I like.


[X] [WiT] Go to Madam Silva and use your favour in return for an explanation on how Divination works and its common limitations.

[X] [Bfig] Relations <- Entwining the world.

[X] [TaM] Riemannian Geometer
[X] [TaM] True Song} (Investigate Repairs

[X] [TT] One question a day, or whenever I feel my reserve has become completely full. (Default+, how the Ladder has been working but tweaked to not waste potential when at full reserve. Operates best at pre-warning of long-term dangers.)

[X] [NIV] A walk amongst the Daisies (Preteen girl in Lira)
 
BTW my guess on the best way to save Zach from falling into a bad mindstate is a combo of Relations, Rest State, More stuff from [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock], a fixed True Song, and a hint of Subversion. All together these should help Zach be the best version of himself.
 
GlassMask said:
BTW my guess on the best way to save Zach from falling into a bad mindstate is a combo of Relations, Rest State, More stuff from [My Resolution, Thy Bedrock], a fixed True Song, and a hint of Subversion. All together these should help Zach be the best version of himself.
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Relations wasn't my priority, but I wanted them all eventually so I'm fine with it, and definitely want to go all in to save Zach. The problem is I'm not sure it actually would help.
I have so much I don't want to lose. The facet of Relations was the ultimate safety net, the path to being able to bind literally anything to myself or each other. I could force powers that were unable to synergise with each other to function anyway. I could tie the lifeforce of others into myself so that none could pass from this life so long as I still drew breath. My little Dreamspace would unfold into a vast tapestry of souls.
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There's no hint of anything like TS's ability for understanding. At best it would tie him by force to us/his family whether he likes it or not, and keep him alive even as he destroyed himself, but wouldn't actually do anything to prevent that.
 
I think if Zach gets an Ethos it's guaranteed to be Inverted since Ladder spoke in absolutes about that.

For Myrah I think it's important for Lilly to keep in mind she has a lot of assumptions with one of our only pieces of info is that Myrah is afraid of someone finding out the truth. She may have an inverted Ethos or she might just be sick with the Black Lungs. She might even be abused by her father. But no matter what it is Lilly should realize this is all assumptions and going in thinking its definitely one option when its really another could hurt our ability to help Myrah. Since if we go in assuming she's being abused when she isn't she'll think we're crazy and insulting towards her only remaining family member.
 
Deuterium Dawn said:
Relations wasn't my priority, but I wanted them all eventually so I'm fine with it, and definitely want to go all in to save Zach. The problem is I'm not sure it actually would help.

There's no hint of anything like TS's ability for understanding. At best it would tie him by force to us/his family whether he likes it or not, and keep him alive even as he destroyed himself, but wouldn't actually do anything to prevent that.
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So the reason I want relations is two fold. It should strengthen any bond based power. The second thing is about synergize abilities that cannot be synergize (as well as strength existing synergies). I want to coordinate True Song, Rest State, Subversion, maybe collective communion, other bedrock powers and so on. In order to properly save him, we need to even the odds as much as possible. Stacking synergies is exactly how we should be able to prevent him from worst case scenarios.
 
I think there's kind of a limitation about Ethoi predictions. If nothing else, because how would @Slyvena even go about writing the Ladder saying "this is what is due to happen unless serious intervention takes place?"

What did our Ladder prediction about Myah say, again?

...

[X] [TaM] True Song} (Investigate Repairs)
 
... Because he was auctioned to Manoth.

his entire list is going to be (Inverted) Ethae, isn't it? That or he bought everyone else out so there's only one choice

Now, that being said, we can't forget that it was said that Martin has his own biases, and propagandizing (Inverted) Ethos as "It always makes you crazy and so you have to kill them now" is important, because what they also are happens to be 'Unfair assholes who break the normal rules and disrupt the way of things' and it takes a lot of propaganda to make a guy like this willing to slaughter kids at the drop of a hat given his guilt complex. (Since most people who get an (Inverted) Ethos are probably young)

However, keep in mind. Mindstate Lilly was actively going to go for one, and Ev'aclial considered putting Lilly on the beta test list for them to be of value comparable to Foundational Ethos. If they were straight up "It makes you evil and stupid". Neither of them would be willing to take the trouble to go for it.

Hence, I feel the solution here is not "Burn Zach's ability to gain an Ethos from him". The solution is "Give him the support he needs not to go crazy from getting a Dark Lord's powerset that feeds into his worst impulses." And...

We have the tools for that. We just need to practice them. And communicate properly, and somehow keep our family glued together as we dive through the fire and the flames.

But hey, no pressure, right? We only have the fate of the world hanging on our shoulders.
 
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Alectai said:
... Because he was auctioned to Manoth.

his entire list is going to be (Inverted) Ethae, isn't it?
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It seems that way? I did a quick search through the thread and even his Foundational Ethos was inverted so apparently this is his entire thing and there are no safe options.


However, keep in mind. Mindstate Lilly was actively going to go for one, and Ev'aclial considered putting Lilly on the beta test list for them to be of value comparable to Foundational Ethos. If they were straight up "It makes you evil and stupid". Neither of them would be willing to take the trouble to go for it.
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I feel like these are tied together. Ev'aclial was always planning on Mindstate Lilly, and Mindstate Lilly didn't have actual emotions, and so may have been immune/resistant to most of the issues that come with IE. Our multiple Ethea may have also helped mitigate them somewhat. But with the Ladder's prediction essentially backing up what Martin said I'm inclined to believe him on this one.
 
Deuterium Dawn said:
It seems that way? I did a quick search through the thread and even his Foundational Ethos was inverted so apparently this is his entire thing and there are no safe options.



I feel like these are tied together. Ev'aclial was always planning on Mindstate Lilly, and Mindstate Lilly didn't have actual emotions, and so may have been immune/resistant to most of the issues that come with IE. Our multiple Ethea may have also helped mitigate them somewhat. But with the Ladder's prediction essentially backing up what Martin said I'm inclined to believe him on this one.
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The risk is high.

But Not guaranteed.

And [Cleaver of Fortune] is all about aiming for the golden BBs isn't it?

Even from a cold lizard brain perspective, aiming for the silver bullet is probably one of the best ways to grind [Cleaver of Fortune] I can think of, given how high the risks of getting a positive (Or even neutral) outcome out of this is.
 
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Alectai said:
The risk is high.

But Not guaranteed.

And [Cleaver of Fortune] is all about aiming for the golden BBs isn't it?

Even from a cold lizard brain perspective, aiming for the silver bullet is probably one of the best ways to grind [Cleaver of Fortune] I can think of, given how high the risks of getting a positive (Or even neutral) outcome out of this is.
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It's still something I'd like to avoid unless mutilating his soul is the only other option. Even with his consent, surviving in this world without an ethos may be a losing proposition. But unless we're able to somehow "flip" his Inverted Ethos, even if we can somehow mitigate the initial confusion, we run the risk that his Ethos will continually push him towards a certain mindset, as they seem to do, and eventually he will slip, and we might actually end up making it worse by giving him time to get stronger. I'm certainly not going to vote to kill Zach or pierce his soul, so if we can't somehow avert the IE in the first place this might be our only play.
 
Deuterium Dawn said:
It's still something I'd like to avoid unless mutilating his soul is the only other option. Even with his consent, surviving in this world without an ethos may be a losing proposition. But unless we're able to somehow "flip" his Inverted Ethos, even if we can somehow mitigate the initial confusion, we run the risk that his Ethos will continually push him towards a certain mindset, as they seem to do, and eventually he will slip, and we might actually end up making it worse by giving him time to get stronger. I'm certainly not going to vote to kill Zach or pierce his soul, so if we can't somehow avert the IE in the first place this might be our only play.
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Oh absolutely.

But I don't want this to be the game where we accept defeat before we even begin, because we're scared of what happens if we fail.
 
[X] Plan: It Begins With The First Rung
-[X] [FonL] You're not thinking this through, you've got too many watchers on you and there's still too much to go with--but touching base with a friend after a night of horrors? That's normal, right? When you get time, touch base with Myah--you already managed to help... Whatever it is that's going on with her, and your senses have gotten a great deal better, you should be able to get to the bottom of what's going on just by leaning on your Essence abilities and provide some treatment--maybe even figure out the source of her illness? You can figure out what to do next once you know more.
-[X] [WiT] Go to Madam Silva and use your favour in return for an explanation on how Divination works and its common limitations.
--[X] You've got a cover story, at least twice now you and your family have gotten into trouble because of those apparent limitations. A few questions here and there to pinpoint where they are would be key so that there would be no such trouble in the future is just, reasonable, right?
-[X] [Bfig] Relations <- Entwining the world.
-[X] [TaM] Riemannian Geometer
-[X] [TaM] True Song (Investigate Repairs)
-[X] [TaM] Rest State
-[X] [TT] One question a day, or whenever I feel my reserve has become completely full. (Default+, how the Ladder has been working but tweaked to not waste potential when at full reserve. Operates best at pre-warning of long-term dangers.)
--[X] Current Priorities: How to escape Waters' grasp without leaving my family to suffer, how to help Zach come out of his Ethos Selection in one piece.
-[X] [NGC] You... Don't want to be the kind of person who takes people's futures from them proactively, just because things might go badly. {The Ladder} after all only said the chance of a violent reaction and a breakdown were high. But isn't [Cleaver of Fortune] all about tilting the odds in your favor? The tools to guide him through this intact and happy... Are probably ones you have access to, or will in the days to come if you're diligent. What's one more impossible task on top of everything else you've been dumped on today?
-[X] [AC] You are almost certainly being monitored. While private areas are likely safe, between any remaining spies in town and in the watch--and whatever it was that was on that rose was bad enough that you scrubbed your own memory of the events, and even trying to recall why was apparently dangerous. Maintain information security unless in an area you can be reasonably certain hasn't been bugged, and take great care around Roses for the immediate future.
 
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Slyvena said:
You notice the Captain is evasive when speaking of certain 'resources' countries possess, when pried he simply says you should come join him at the Watch's Camp tomorrow. There is something you need to do before he can tell you of such things.
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Those resources are dungeons they're farming aren't they? We know after all that creation of matter and items is well within what Foundational Ethea are able to do. Gonna guess he'll want us to formally take the Watch's oath before he can tell us about them.
TaliesinSkye said:
There is also a simpler possible explanation. Her father is abusing her, and she wants to escape him. He kills her in five days to prevent her from telling anyone.
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While that's a possibility I don't think it's very likely to be the only thing that's going on here, as abuse by her father doesn't sound like it'd be enough to create what's most likely Negative Essence. Kaymie is being abused and she still uses regular Essence after all.
TaliesinSkye said:
[FonL] Write In: Going alone could be dangerous. Tell Captain Martin that your friend Myah is in danger. Ask him to accompany you to see her. Determine what is wrong, and do your best to fix it.
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I'd very much caution against that, the Watch's MO is to kill holders of Inverted Ethea on sight, bringing Martin to Myah is gonna endanger her for sure.
 
-[X] [AC] You are almost certainly being monitored. While private areas are likely safe, between any remaining spies in town and in the watch--and whatever it was that was on that rose was bad enough that you scrubbed your own memory of the events, and even trying to recall why was apparently dangerous. Maintain information security unless in an area you can be reasonably certain hasn't been bugged, and take great care around Roses for the immediate future.
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This doesn't really make sense to me? While remote observation powers definitely exist, "bugs" probably don't except in a literal, eyes-of-the-familiar sense. While there's undoubtedly ways to obscure or block powers like Silva's, the only way we're likely to have access to them in the immediate future is through the watch, which would necessitate letting someone follow us around and actively alert them to when we wished to be hidden.
 
I think the artefact Senus was talking about is a weapon that can trap or modify the mind of the person that percieve it when it is activated. You don't have to be present when it gets used to take effect, you need just to witness it in some way. What he was doing to Kaymie was either something needed for it to be activated or, which is more likely, was meant to focus more of our attention on the moment the artifact was used. It is probably both, though. Our only saving grace may have been due to him expecting us to see that moment using concordance, while we simply used the essence based memory of wood, something that helped us to not completely fall under that effect. Afterall, if a hybrid essence-concordant user has access to a find informations ability, it would be a lot more likely to be based on concordance than essence.

No matter what, the result of his action would have probably permanently damaged our psyche, which explain why Lord Waters was talking to Senus about a new pet when he implied that we hadn't access to flow, the same source that we now know may show similar effects to concordance in some ways.

Even with that, thought, they would still want to burn our house and kill our family, because that's a "matter of principle".
 
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darknessworld said:
I think the artefact Senus was talking about is a weapon that can trap or modify the mind of the person that percieve it when it is activated. You don't have to be present when it gets used to take effect, you need just to witness it in some way. What he was doing to Kaymie was either something needed for it to be activated or, which is more likely, was meant to focus more of our attention on the moment the artifact was used. It is probably both, though. Our only saving grace may have been due to him expecting us to see that moment using concordance, while we simply used the essence based memory of wood, something that helped us to not completely fall under that effect. Afterall, if a hybrid essence-concordant user has access to a find informations ability, it would be a lot more likely to be based from concordance than essence.

No matter what, the result of his action would have probably permanently damaged our psyche, which explain why Lord Waters was talking to Senus about a new pet when he implied that we hadn't access to flow, the same source that we now know may show similar effects to concordance in some ways.

Even with that, thought, they would still want to burn our house and kill our family, because that's a "matter of principle".
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Actually, Lilly did fall under the effect. It's just that she has two brains and a newly formed Ethos that specializes in restoring you to your best mental state, and then used {Subversion} to scrub the persistent effect.
 
Alectai said:
Actually, Lilly did fall under the effect. It's just that she has two brains and a newly formed Ethos that specializes in restoring you to your best mental state, and then used {Subversion} to scrub the persistent effect.
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Not necessarily. Otherwise we wouldn't have been out of it for only 2 minutes. Seeing the memory isn't a free action, it takes time, and also subversion isn't. I would expect something that comes directly from {Rest State} to take a lot more time than the other abilities we know we used. However, it may have improved our chances to resist to the mental attack itself.
 
Alectai said:
you already managed to help... Whatever it is that's going on with her, and your senses have gotten a great deal better, you should be able to get to the bottom of what's going on just by leaning on your Essence abilities and provide some treatment--maybe even figure out the source of her illness? You can figure out what to do next once you know more.
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We do not know if it is an illness.
 
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