- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Loot] Chest
[X] [Loot] Components
[X] [Loot] Field Divination Kit
[X] Plan Oshha
[X] [Loot] Components
[X] [Loot] Field Divination Kit
[X] Plan Oshha
I'm a High Fantasy Tax Collector, So What? A CKII Tax Collector Quest
- Thread starter hYGP
- Start date
- Original Fantasy
-
- Tags
- death ck2 quest all proceeds go to real spiders are we revolutionaries or reactionaries today criminal justice discussion makes the gm fuzzy don't count your boats before they sail granary management if i lose my meows get me likes to replace them justice spider knock knock it's the finance ministry meows for discussion while supplies last taxation taxes this is not an empire quest
- Location
- Pittsburgh PA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Oshha
@huhYeahGoodPoint I don't know how well this would work in the crazy legal system, but I think I've figured out a way to undercut the legal argument against the debt forgiveness by not having any of the nobles technically be the ones forgiving debt:
There are a bunch of variants of this depending on the law and how Agueda feels would be best to get the nobility to cooperate. Such as combining steps 2,3, and 4 so that the company directly accepts ownership of debts in exchange for stocks.
- Calculate/negotiate the net present value of each of the debts. All subsequent transactions in this plan are based on the net present value.
- Make a company that only exists on paper.
- Get the local nobles together and have them buy an amount of shares of the company equal to the debts owed to them. No need to rush to get the specie out though,
- The company uses this liquidity to (on paper) buy ALL the debts
- The company bundles debts based on who owes the debt
- The company (on paper) allows the nobles to buy out the debt that they owe the company
- stock buybacks removes the only-ever-existed-on-paper money that was created during step 3
- Net debtors now all owe their money to a company owned by the net creditors.
There are a bunch of variants of this depending on the law and how Agueda feels would be best to get the nobility to cooperate. Such as combining steps 2,3, and 4 so that the company directly accepts ownership of debts in exchange for stocks.
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
Fixed.
Both if you can, but mostly to alienate the Sarkozys - they're not...exactly friendly or liable to view you as anything but an enemy, considering you literally just conducted an armed raid on their house and made off with all of their documents.
Step 1 would likely be the biggest pain in the ass - most of these bozos think "oh yeah me and my mates agreed on it swear on my honor" is a perfectly acceptable accounting system and are surprised when all of it is exploding in their face, no matter how good their servants are at recalling information. Step 2 would then immediately crash the economy because most nobles own more debt than equity, and wouldn't be able to buy it out - except, if steps 2-4 into "exchange debt for shares and pretend this thing has the value everyone else thinks it does" and then immediately stopping right there would probably work okayish. You'd have a company that could draw a frankly terrifying amount of money had it ever had the capability to do so - but you then immediately cripple the business and everyone pretends like they're not seeing the company simply fail to collect obligations.
Of course, then you run into both a simpler and more difficult problem. You need the person running this business to either be a sockpuppet and delete the debts as agreed-upon, or you need them to be strong-willed and even-handed, or else you'll run into the problem where they'll forgive the debts of their allies and keep the debts of their enemies, making a hash out of the whole political situation. Again.
But hey, it might work well enough!
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I continue to be impressed with the depth of thought and detail both QM and several questors put into the finances of this imaginary kingdom. I'd have to hand-wave massive amounts of it if I tried something similar.
You can kind of make this better for both ourselves, and get a massive win for both the Finance Ministry and the Crown at the same time particularly given Agueda possesses far greater financial knowledge than the nobles.
At the core of it the nobles all have more debt obligations than they have debt as an asset owed to them, meaning the company will still end up with a great deal of debt owed to it by the nobles. It just won't be unsustainable debt that would collapse the entire economy, and can be payed down with time.
However all the nobles would have had their shares bought back with appropriate debt forgiveness, meaning the owner of all that debt would would the sole stake holder left in the company. It'd be quite simple for Agueda to simply have a fee where she herself is awarded shares as payment for her momentous work in righting the economy which will sound innocent and reasonable enough, and whether that is one share or one thousand the result would still be the same. She'd be the sole owner at the end.
We'd then have an potent asset that we can present both the Finance Ministry and Crown as a fait accompli, as well as hopefully punishing those deemed responsible. That debt would be very valuable to the Crown given it's overall situation with the Crusade given it's cash flow is shit, it's income is awful, and it's centralization is poor as shown on the front page. As we were shown in the crisis the nobles here are part of a wider family so this debt can be used to secure income for the crown that won't need to go through the Sjem, it can be used as a tool to cancel any debt the Crown owes to those noble families, it can be used as influence and leverage for the Crown to get the nobles to do what they want, and is just overall a great source of soft power for the Crown that won't need the acquiescence of the Sjem. It could even be restructured into a primitive Central Bank of Oskaria.
Either way it seems like it'd be a win for everyone:
- The peasants and working class won't have the debt crash the economy, meaning they can continue to grow and develop their own wealth
- The merchants won't have the trade just utterly still, and long term will benefit from more goods produced and consumed.
- The nobles won't engage in a internecine war over debt, and what they're left with is sustainable for their income. The economy would also grow in time making this easier, given points one and two.
- Agueda and the Finance Ministry benefit from a fait accompli. The situation would hopefully be solved, the culprits punished, and there is a new large asset on their sheets. Ideally we'd also end up returning with more specie than we left.
- The crown benefits from all the above, and can use the new asset as needed without prior Sjem approval.
- The spirit Oskaria would likely favor us more.
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
this shit's too good i'm making it an action now:
[] [Diplomacy] What's Good For Business
Clearly, the previous solution was a little clunky and too vulnerable to outside disruption and necessary but tedious negotiation. You have a better plan, involving the stock market, the Merchant Guild, and more than a few buybacks. DC: 25. Cost: 6 Budget.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
- Location
- United States
Next turn, were taking this action assuming we don't modify our current plans.
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I want to take it and I would do it now, but I want to make sure that the dues begin to be paid sooner rather than later and I suspect that putting it off too long risks something bad happening due to the local nobles running out of money. I also don't know how What's Good For Business interacts with Agreed-Upon Solutions so I would like @huhYeahGoodPoint to explain how the two actions relate to each other with the debt situation before I make any changes as I can't tell if both deal with the same situation or if one deals with feudal dues and the other deals with the debt mess.
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- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
The two are incompatible, because they are both methods to deal with the debt mess so that feudal dues can be restored - mutually incompatible approaches to the debt mess, in fact.
- Location
- Omniverse #1345
That sounds like a perfectly valid approach! Sure it makes absolutely no sense, but neither does this mess! We shall confuse everyone into giving us all their stuff!
- Location
- Southampton, Great Britain
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well, that changes things a lot and good to know.
Chimeraguard
We do deserve to exist.
[X] [Loot] Chest
[X] [Loot] Components
[X] [Loot] Field Divination Kit
[X] Plan Oshha's
[X] [Loot] Components
[X] [Loot] Field Divination Kit
[X] Plan Oshha's
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[X] Plan Oshha's
[x] plan murderhobo
-[X] [Loot] Chest
-[X] [Loot] Components
-[X] [Loot] Field Divination Kit
I wonder if it might be better to use plan voting for the loot. Not including it with the turn plan, but instead having two separate plans, one for loot and one for actions. The present method has the issue that if, hypothetically, 5 people vote for just the chest, and five people vote for everything but the chest, it will look much the same as five people voting for all everything, when in fact everybody would have voted for leaving stuff behind. It doesn't seem to be much of an issue this time with the vote looking nearly unanimous, but in general...
Alternatively people could explicitly vote against the things that they don't think are worth it.
[x] plan murderhobo
-[X] [Loot] Chest
-[X] [Loot] Components
-[X] [Loot] Field Divination Kit
I wonder if it might be better to use plan voting for the loot. Not including it with the turn plan, but instead having two separate plans, one for loot and one for actions. The present method has the issue that if, hypothetically, 5 people vote for just the chest, and five people vote for everything but the chest, it will look much the same as five people voting for all everything, when in fact everybody would have voted for leaving stuff behind. It doesn't seem to be much of an issue this time with the vote looking nearly unanimous, but in general...
Alternatively people could explicitly vote against the things that they don't think are worth it.
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- Location
- New York
[X] Plan Oshha's
[X] [Loot] Chest
[X] [Loot] Components
[X] [Loot] Field Divination Kit
[X] [Loot] Chest
[X] [Loot] Components
[X] [Loot] Field Divination Kit
THE ORIGIN OF SPECIE MONTH 9 ROLL CALL
- Location
- Somewhere over the rainbow
Fortunately, going maximum Greed vote and grabbing everything was the winning vote, so I don't have to think about that.
Plan Oshha's wins 9-1-1. Chest, Components, and the Field Divination Kit have all been purchased for an expense of 10 Budget.
Roll me 9d100s, individually, please. Eighth roll will be a loot roll, ninth roll will be the random event roll. You are basically guaranteed to get something good with the chest.
Martial
Self-Defense
DC: 15. Base Stat: 18 + 2 + 3.1
Cost: 0 Budget.
Diplomacy
What's Good For Business
DC: 25. Base Stat: 20 + 3 + 1.
Ophelia Action.
Cost: 6 Budget.
Diplomacy
Ear to the Ground
DC: 25. Base Stat: 20 + 1.
Cost: 0 Budget.
Intrigue
Convincing Nobles
DC: 24. Base Stat: 22 + 2.
Cost: 8 Budget.
Learning
Compass Tinkering
DC: 17. Base Stat: 21.
Cost: 0 Budget.
Stewardship
Document Analysis
DC: 15. Base Stat: 23 + 1.
Cost: 0 Budget.
PIety
The Local Spirits Again
DC: 24. Base Stat: 23 + 2.
Cost: 2 Budget.
Loot
Cost: 10 Budget.
- Location
- New York
Attempting to roll now.
[X] Plan Oshha's
NeonLights
Formerly Reliable_2IC
- Location
- In shambles
I feel comfortable rolling this