"Neph"
various posters coming up with an entire mineral naming scheme
"Jade," in that context

Are our next two personalities named "Zois" and "Kunz" by any chance? :V

(That's also a great opportunity that the fixed worlds list prevents us from ever using outside of omakes... :( )

[X] Let Neph take over for a little while.
-[X] Tell the others this is happening.
-[X] Finish your apology and justifications while you're at it. You'd love to do the construct thingie, you really would, but it has problems.
-[X] Remind her to tell you what she's supposed to be.
 
:I feel like I need to clear up a rather significant misunderstanding. Jade, you aren't a goddess yet. You're what's known as a 'godling.' The treaty which bans warfare against other gods still protects you and you will be expected to heed it in return.
:Uh, I think that's it until and unless you become a full-fledged deity. Just don't try to directly kill other gods or godlings and you'll be extended the same courtesy in return. Attack any of them and you'll be fair game for all of them."

"Does that ban include their followers?"

:Nah, you're good on that front.:

"Does it include my followers and friends?"

:Usual rules on minimal intervention apply. You can ignore them for now as they don't yet apply to you; suffice to say no gods are going to be able to really do anything to them unless you, say, stage a full-fledged invasion of their country or otherwise force them to defend their own population of followers.:
The treaty is less of a binding contract and more of a cold war scenario - break it, and you're no longer protected from Velgarth's gods.
If we ascend, we have to adhere, regardless of whether we have followers on-plane. What would change is that we no longer can interfere with the followers of others, which is pretty much everyone.
Considering how gods only act through avatars, the non-interference rules appear to be very strict.
Worst case, we're banned from harming anyone on Velgarth under pain of death. It probably won't be that extreme, but still, it limits our options.
 
For now, staying a godling has better perks on Velgarth where those get the full protection without the restrictions full gods are under.
The treaty is less of a binding contract and more of a cold war scenario - break it, and you're no longer protected from Velgarth's gods.
If we ascend, we have to adhere, regardless of whether we have followers on-plane. What would change is that we no longer can interfere with the followers of others, which is pretty much everyone.
Considering how gods only act through avatars, the non-interference rules appear to be very strict.
Worst case, we're banned from harming anyone on Velgarth under pain of death. It probably won't be that extreme, but still, it limits our options.

This is kind of awful logic. "Becoming a god would limit our options somewhat on one plane, therefore we should delay working towards ascension."

You're only focusing on the negatives and ignoring the perks; any new restrictions on activity would be more than counterbalanced by becoming a god, and gaining all the power that entails. Furthermore, the restrictions would only apply to Velgarth. Every additional bit of power helps enormously with all the other planes, most of which we maintain a much larger presence. Given how the treaty among gods prevents us from engaging in any major intervention on Velgarth already, we stand to lose little and profit greatly.

Honestly, I kind of view Velgarth as the deity-training sandbox of our available planes. It's where we learned what we currently know about ascension, it's where we'll continue to learn about ascension, and it's where we'll one day be able to approach gods as peers without worrying about being instantly smote. Want a god as a magic teacher? Barring Siofra, go to Velgarth.

I'd prefer not to push her further for a while:
  • To accept prayers, worship and divinity, Jade primarily needs to thinks she deserves them. In the coming month, we'll found a kingdom for the former slaves and give them a quality of life far beyond the standard in this plane. At that point, ascension should come by itself.
  • Humanity has time and again slid down the slippery slope from benevolence to apathy, from superiority to oppression, from pride to segregation. I'd rather avoid that by keeping our self-image based on actual deeds instead of potential power.
    Jade isn't immune to hubris:
  • Jade is 16. Over less than six months, she mostly recovered from
    Despite all that progess, she hasn't fully accepted her new circumstances and personality. Her growth as a goddess might very well stunt her growth as a person. No amount of power is worth that.

Your other points are more valid, but I'll note that ascension is unlikely to occur in a short enough time frame to stunt character development. It would occur over the span of many months at bare minimum, more likely years.

And frankly, I think you should give Jade more credit.

Jade is extremely unlikely to become apathetic or oppressive towards humanity anytime in the foreseeable future. Even if that somehow changes, she has people like Nanoha actively pushing her in the other direction. Red does not lend itself towards detachment; if Jade has a problem, it's caring too much about the plight of people she doesn't know or has only just met. Her growing more powerful will not change that; rather, extra power will increase her ability to act on her benevolent impulses. Look at what she did for Remnant, when given the chance.
 
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Sapient_Ham said:
any new restrictions on activity would be more than counterbalanced by becoming a god, and gaining all the power that entails.
According to Sigurd, prayer is "very distracting until you learn how to block it out." So at least initially, it's not a straight advantage.
Given how the treaty among gods prevents us from engaging in any major intervention on Velgarth already, we stand to lose little and profit greatly.
Where did you get that from? Sigurd explicitly stated that anything less than a "full-fledged invasion" or dedicated attack on their follower base is allowed for a godling. "Forced to defend" is quite a high standard.
she has people like Nanoha actively pushing her in the other direction. Red does not lend itself towards detachment
Counterbalanced by Agneyastra pushing towards apathy. Neph's musing how nice it'd be to mind-control people doesn't inspire confidence in 'red' characteristics being enough.
Look at what she did for Remnant, when given the chance.
Yes, current Jade tries to help - so why push her away from that? I'm not arguing against divinity, I'm against changing her to reach it faster.
It would occur over the span of many months at bare minimum, more likely years.
I have no issue with a timescale like that. I just doubt those voters pushing for divinity will give her that time.
 
You're only focusing on the negatives and ignoring the perks; any new restrictions on activity would be more than counterbalanced by becoming a god, and gaining all the power that entails. Furthermore, the restrictions would only apply to Velgarth. Every additional bit of power helps enormously with all the other planes, most of which we maintain a much larger presence. Given how the treaty among gods prevents us from engaging in any major intervention on Velgarth already, we stand to lose little and profit greatly.

Honestly, I kind of view Velgarth as the deity-training sandbox of our available planes. It's where we learned what we currently know about ascension, it's where we'll continue to learn about ascension, and it's where we'll one day be able to approach gods as peers without worrying about being instantly smote. Want a god as a magic teacher? Barring Siofra, go to Velgarth.
You haven't explained why "becoming a god" is a perk, and why both Jade and we players would want it. Because from your post it almost seems "god" is just a title.


Edit: I'd love if you could give a good argument; I believe it'd greatly help Jade into acepting the idea of divinity.
 
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You haven't explained why "becoming a god" is a perk, and why both Jade and we players would want it. Because from your post it almost seems "god" is just a title.


Edit: I'd love if you could give a good argument; I believe it'd greatly help Jade into acepting the idea of divinity.
Well, for one, it seems that divinity is somewhat required to have an active role in managing, controlling, designing or otherwise influencing afterlives. For two, hearing prayers would be an incredible ego boost, if the religion is managed correctly - and Jade can use all the ego boosts she can get access to. Beyond that, straight up power, both in quantity and quality of it are nice perks - for all Jade is stated to be powerful, the feats of her ancestors, who didn't seem to be actual divinity, leave her in the dust completely. Ability to hear prayer might also come with ability to observe the people praying / believers, which is an incredible information gathering resource.
 
According to Sigurd, prayer is "very distracting until you learn how to block it out." So at least initially, it's not a straight advantage.

Aye, that's part of the reason why I'd like Jade to get comfortable with hearing prayers now, while she has the chance. Better here on Magi with a small amount of deliberately managed followers, than afterwards when the MGLN plane unlocks. She'll likely be dealing with orders of magnitude more worshipers from the Agni cults, so this isn't something we can avoid in the long, or even medium term.

So I'd like to treat Magi as an experimental case, to test the effects of worship. If it's really so awful, Jade's going to want to know. Likewise if it's beneficial; Jade could use the extra power for the Jewel Seed incident. And yes, I believe it's possible to get results in a mere month. Sigurd said some demons managed it, and they didn't have Enhance Learning:

: Dunno. It's not really something anybody talks about. Could be like most other magic, where you have to actually know what you're looking for, but it can't be too difficult. I know of a couple demons who founded cults and started exploiting worship in less than a month.:


Where did you get that from? Sigurd explicitly stated that anything less than a "full-fledged invasion" or dedicated attack on their follower base is allowed for a godling. "Forced to defend" is quite a high standard.

Eh... this may be an assumption on my part, but the prohibition against technology proliferation probably still applies to us, since it's a pretty foundational part of the gods' plan for Velgarth stability. We likely can't pull a Remnant or Magi without earning divine ire. So no founding of high-technology utopian kingdoms, sadly.

There are other opportunities for intervention, of course, but they require Jade's personal involvement and are stuff we could accomplish over the time span it takes to fully ascend. (Fixing Valdemar's mage defense system so they can recruit Herald-Mages, intervening in Karse, that type of thing.)



You haven't explained why "becoming a god" is a perk, and why both Jade and we players would want it. Because from your post it almost seems "god" is just a title.


Edit: I'd love if you could give a good argument; I believe it'd greatly help Jade into acepting the idea of divinity.

We only have a rough idea from our one conversation with Sigurd on the subject, but he outlined basic divine abilities:

The more mortals who believe in your divinity, the easier it is for you to meet their expectations. I believe Celestial Fortress subscribes to the type of magic which works by 'convincing' mana it's actually something else, correct? It's not a perfect analogy, but think of followers as doing such work for you whenever you're foremost in their thoughts.:
It's just not a very good idea in general; divine powers are frequently better for broad blessings and workings which affect the entire land, not small-scale stuff like helping them catch the eye of this one girl they think they're in love with.:
-[x] What are the standard "divine abilities"?

:Boy, is that a big question. The creation of avatars like me is the biggest one; typically, they pick out a dead human follower and grant them either a portion of, or access to, some of their own power. Infusing existing extraplanars or making new beings from scratch is more unusual, but not entirely unheard of.:

"Which are you?"

:Well, I was an extraplanar. Now I'm stuffed in a squishy animal shell and am a great deal weaker than I used to be.:

"...Next ability?"

:Right, right. So, since we're on the subject, bodies. Gods don't really need 'em; they, and a lot of extraplanars, are made up of masses of what could be best described as 'essence.' Oh, they can take specific forms if we want and it's a really good idea if you're about to go into combat, but for the most part, deities can do without. More importantly, gods have enough essence to send off part of themselves and literally be in multiple places at once. I sometimes think gods decided to give up on killing one another simply because it was so difficult to be sure you'd gotten all of one.

:Next, followers don't just provide you with extra power, they also make specific tasks easier in the first place. For instance, if you're a god of plants, you might have an easier time making them grow, wilt, controlling them, and so on. A little bit of power could go a long way in that department if your followers have already convinced your magic it's something you should be able to do.

:I suppose knowing when someone is praying to you and roughly how much power they're generating could be considered another ability. I'm told it's very distracting until you learn how to block it out. I know at least a few gods set up specific words or rituals followers can use to basically say they're in deep sh—trouble and could really use some advice or aid right about now.

:I know there are a lot more, but I'm afraid deities tend to be pretty close-lipped. That and I honestly never thought to ask. Didn't really seem like something which would ever be important to me.:

tl;dr:
  • Infusing dead followers with power to create avatars
  • Broad (possibly land-based) blessings
  • Incorporeality & the ability to manage multiple bodies
  • Drawing extra power from followers
  • An easier time performing magical feats your followers believe you capable of
We'll probably only see the last two anytime soon, but even those would be very useful. If followers believe Jade to be a goddess of fire, she'll use less power and have an easier time with her pyrokinesis. If they believe her to be a benevolent goddess who heals the sick, she'll have an easier time healing. Etc.

This may include the development of new traits; managing the expectations of worshipers over decades/centuries may very well be how Indira made herself immune to lightning, for example.

In the long term, having an ability like multiple bodies would be invaluable. Interacting with Indira or Earthland gods isn't nearly as dangerous when Jade can just send a secondary body in her place. And I shouldn't have to explain why blessings that affect the land might be useful for a Planeswalker.
 
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Well, for one, it seems that divinity is somewhat required to have an active role in managing, controlling, designing or otherwise influencing afterlives. For two, hearing prayers would be an incredible ego boost, if the religion is managed correctly - and Jade can use all the ego boosts she can get access to. Beyond that, straight up power, both in quantity and quality of it are nice perks - for all Jade is stated to be powerful, the feats of her ancestors, who didn't seem to be actual divinity, leave her in the dust completely. Ability to hear prayer might also come with ability to observe the people praying / believers, which is an incredible information gathering resource.
Divinity and afterlives: doesn't Indira or the old Agni Empire already managed afterlives? I think it came up in Indira's interview

Prayer and ego boost: Jade can some more ego boosts, true, but it isn't like prayer is the quickest path to that. An interesting argument but not something Jade feels comfortable yet.

Power: you counterargumented yourself, as Jade's ancestors were far more powerful/skilled than Jade without being divinity

Hear prayer as intelligence gathering: 1. Unconfirmed ; 2. Agneyastra does that already ; 3. Doesn't need to be a god to do that






Hmm.... I get that Jade beoming a god has the potential to help her gratly but I can't pinpoint exactly why.

At this point I'll start speculating:

Throwing a random here I'll say because we are at the stage when we don't know what means to be a god: what we most know is that random traits that we assoiate to divinity.

- Immortality? Siofra is immortal due to her curse, Nanoha's current body won't die from old age and we Calipso died not so long ago
- Control over a domain? The Agni royal family and fire
- Worship? Low-leveled demons have done it, and Calypso had survived without it.

(...)

At this point the only clear difference is something Sigurd mentioned about gods being made of "essence"
:Right, right. So, since we're on the subject, bodies. Gods don't really need 'em; they, and a lot of extraplanars, are made up of masses of what could be best described as 'essence.' Oh, they can take specific forms if we want and it's a really good idea if you're about to go into combat, but for the most part, deities can do without. More importantly, gods have enough essence to send off part of themselves and literally be in multiple places at once. I sometimes think gods decided to give up on killing one another simply because it was so difficult to be sure you'd gotten all of one.

I imagine the change of a mortal's soul into essence is the technical part of ascending. However, I wonder how that process will change with Jade's invulnerable soul. Extrema case: her soul invulnerability makes it unchanging and unable to become essence.
 
Divinity and afterlives: doesn't Indira or the old Agni Empire already managed afterlives? I think it came up in Indira's interview

Prayer and ego boost: Jade can some more ego boosts, true, but it isn't like prayer is the quickest path to that. An interesting argument but not something Jade feels comfortable yet.

Power: you counterargumented yourself, as Jade's ancestors were far more powerful/skilled than Jade without being divinity

Hear prayer as intelligence gathering: 1. Unconfirmed ; 2. Agneyastra does that already ; 3. Doesn't need to be a god to do that
1) We don't know Indira's actual status in respect to being a divine being. Given that she certainly underwent at least some soul based transformations in the past three hundred years, it's not impossible that she is, indeed, a goddess in truth. Or at least close enough.

2) It's not the quickest (which are faster?), but it is good, reliable, and is coming anyway, unless we actively work against it.

3) Yes, they were. So, Jade needs everything she can get access to to get on at least their level and surpass them. Divinity is one way to power.

I'll also throw out the following arguments (I might not have internet for the next two days, so sorry if I don't respond to the follow-up):
1) Becoming a goddess is also about self-growth. It doesn't (directly) harm anyone. So, if Jade is to become a positive person, ability, and desire to grow beyond what you are at the moment, to want to achieve new things, rather than simple contentment with the situation, should, in my opinion, be a part of who she is. Accepting divinity is one such path.

2) Becoming a goddess gets Jade access to a different peer group (divine beings), one that might be beneficial to Jade.

3) If gods are involved in afterlives and possibly reincarnation, becoming one might be required to figure out MGLN's plane's mental shackles. And that's important - I previously speculated that Agneyastra's inability to bootstrap herself into a Culture Mind comes directly from that issue - that "no immortality" rule that prevented beings in MGLN from discovering such technologies (despite it being apparently trivial to achieve with what they had already) also prevented them from discovering a way to stabilize true seed AIs. This is a weak argument, but we know that gods do conceptual magic and mental editing on a whole different level, and this might be an example of such.

And no "we'll just use someone not from MGLN to figure those things out" is not a very good argument, as that still leaves a lot of people shackled.
 
Ability to hear prayer might also come with ability to observe the people praying / believers, which is an incredible information gathering resource.
Even if we had that ability:
Agneyastra, the lost-tech AI, noted that she couldn't keep track of a few hundred people in the city of Prosperity in real time without significantly hampering her. Your hypothetical "incredible information gathering resource" is a massive timesink to look in on a few random people. The proper way to handle this was mentioned by Sigurd: Set up a "call for help" signal that allows followers to catch your attention.

Aye, that's part of the reason why I'd like Jade to get comfortable with hearing prayers now, while she has the chance. Better here on Magi with a small amount of deliberately managed followers, then afterwards when the MGLN plane unlocks.
[...]
And yes, I believe it's possible to get results in a mere month. Sigurd said some demons managed it, and they didn't have Enhance Learning.
Using Enhanced Learning on worship would be reckless - you absorb whatever knowledge you're offered, regardless of content. Sigurd reassured us divine image doesn't change us, let's not invalidate that.
So, in your scenario we take a month to gain power from worship. That might bring the "very distracting prayer" phase right on time to collide with our return to MGLN. After all, "gaining worship" leads to "hearing prayers", not the other way around.

Also, refer to my previous comment on overhauling your self-image in less than a month being harmful.

the prohibition against technology proliferation probably still applies to us, since it's a pretty foundational part of the gods' plan for Velgarth stability.
Ah, yes, that applies to everyone. However, I think we can do "major interventions" just fine without a technological uplift.

managing the expectations of worshipers over decades/centuries may very well be how Indira managed to make herself immune to lightning, for example.

In the long term, having an ability like multiple bodies would be invaluable.
The lightning immunity is probably granted by her god-level Red/Black armour.

Multiple bodies sound brilliant... until you have to deal with the actual 'gameplay'.

If gods are involved in afterlives and possibly reincarnation, becoming one might be required to figure out MGLN's plane's mental shackles
Pure speculation, and it has repeatedly been shown (e.g. Siofra vs. Calypso) that mortals can stop gods.
Besides, we have no idea where they spell comes from, might be e.g. a coloured mage who doesn't want to share immortality.
 
There are other opportunities for intervention, of course, but they require Jade's personal involvement and are stuff we could accomplish over the time span it takes to fully ascend. (Fixing Valdemar's mage defense system so they can recruit Herald-Mages, intervening in Karse, that type of thing.)
Both of those are things certain deities (or, possibly more accurately, a certain couple of deities, mild pun intended) appear to be playing the long game to solve already. Possibly in order to solve a more important, and world-threatening, problem. I'm not entirely sure how deific Foresight works on Velgarth, but it's possible that, if we're not careful, we could seriously screw that up, and doom the world. Going to want to tread lightly, there.
 
Both of those are things certain deities (or, possibly more accurately, a certain couple of deities, mild pun intended) appear to be playing the long game to solve already. Possibly in order to solve a more important, and world-threatening, problem. I'm not entirely sure how deific Foresight works on Velgarth, but it's possible that, if we're not careful, we could seriously screw that up, and doom the world. Going to want to tread lightly, there.

Very true. Honestly, I'd be fine with barely intervening in Velgarth at all for a while, barring explicit divine permission. (Vkandis allowing Jade to act in his name in Karse, for example.)

Using Enhanced Learning on worship would be reckless - you absorb whatever knowledge you're offered, regardless of content. Sigurd reassured us divine image doesn't change us, let's not invalidate that.

No offense, but this is paranoid. You're arguing we shouldn't use Jade's primary perk to learn divine magic because... you think it might change her personality, in direct contradiction of Sigurd's reassurances?

So, in your scenario we take a month to gain power from worship. That might bring the "very distracting prayer" phase right on time to collide with our return to MGLN. After all, "gaining worship" leads to "hearing prayers", not the other way around.

Yes? That's exactly my point; if worship leads to hearing prayers, Jade might end up distracted at an inconvenient time upon returning to MGLN, because of all the worshippers there. Better she learns how to deal with it now during this relative quiet period than be caught flat-footed later.

The lightning immunity is probably granted by her god-level Red/Black armour.

Okay, that's a baseless assumption. Somehow I don't think Kladenets would be fooled by mere enchanted armor.
 
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@Nixeu: On the other hand, metaknowledge is overrated. The situation might be significantly different to whatever canon there is, and Jade doesn't have OC knowledge.

you think it might change her personality, in direct contradiction of Sigurd's reassurances?
Enhance Learning makes it easier for Jade to learn something, but just like Sidhe, that information doesn't necessarily need to be correct.

Sidhe calmly digested the nonsensical rule until it actually came time to use it and the problem couldn't be completed as a result. For a while, Jade thought manually cleansing was less expensive than warding; only testing overturned that theory.

Jade thinks Agneyastra might be able to sneak in lessons which she might only object to in hindsight. As EL would make it easier for her to absorb those lessons and make them into habit, Jade thinks they may be more difficult to uproot or even notice if she doesn't manage to catch them as soon as Agneyastra tries to teach them to her.
As I stated in the post you quoted, Sigurd said that worship doesn't influence the god. The moment we activate EL, that's no longer true: Jade would absorb how her followers think about her.
There's a reason we voted to use EL "for learning things where your own judgment is not really required, and where biases of the teacher aren't likely to matter."
Worshippers are heavily biased, listening to them under EL is a horrible idea.

Yes? That's exactly my point; if worship leads to hearing prayers, Jade might end up distracted at an inconvenient time upon returning to MGLN. Better she learns it now during this relative quiet period than later.
What I'm saying is that, right now, our aversion protects us from hearing prayers. If we force Jade to acknowledge the situation, how can you be sure that the "coping with prayers" phase doesn't happen in three weeks, just as we unfreeze MGLN? It definitely won't be immediately because we don't have followers yet.
Immunity is better than hoping we'll have gained passivation in time.

Okay, that's a baseless assumption. Somehow I don't think Kladenets would be fooled by mere enchanted armor.
  • Kladenets can't sense mana
  • He probably doesn't know how Suryastra extracted branch family sparks to create Red artifacts
  • Kladenets declined Indira's request to be readmitted into the royal line
If you go back to the comments after that particular foresight dream, you'll see I'm far from the only one who suspects the armour to grant lightning immunity.



BTW, as we recently talked about legendary lands and are now on the topic of divinity:
Thedas' Golden City in the Fade
 
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@Nixeu: On the other hand, metaknowledge is overrated. The situation might be significantly different to whatever canon there is, and Jade doesn't have OC knowledge.
Unless Vanyel pulled the ghost thing all on his lonesome, deities were involved. Clearly, there's a reason why they wanted Valdemar free of mages, even if we don't know why. Interfering is thus not a good idea.

As for Karse...it's an issue on a level I just don't want Jade to see, frankly. The corruption of the priests and the witch trials are too much, I think. And, what with V'kandis' Sun Cats, he's also clearly doing something.
BTW, as we recently talked about legendary lands and are now on the topic of divinity:
Thedas' Golden City in the Fade
Thedas is about 100 gallons of "nope" in a gallon jug, IMO. The land of confused morality and really messed up sh*t. And the City is even more "nope" than Thedas proper.
 
I imagine the change of a mortal's soul into essence is the technical part of ascending. However, I wonder how that process will change with Jade's invulnerable soul. Extrema case: her soul invulnerability makes it unchanging and unable to become essence.
That shouldn't be a big problem to do manually. Soul scientists managed to change our soul, and I'm certain Agneyastra was taking notes.
Kladenets declined Indira's request to be readmitted into the royal line
Because he doesn't have such authority? He told Indira the exact procedure of reestablishing the royal line.
 
As I stated in the post you quoted, Sigurd said that worship doesn't influence the god. The moment we activate EL, that's no longer true: Jade would absorb how her followers think about her.

You have no evidence whatsoever that's the case; if worshippers can't influence the personality of a god/godling normally, why would EL change that? Zero influence multiplied by magic is still zero.

If EL really would cause Jade to be brainwashed by worshippers like you suggest, we wouldn't be able to use EL at all after learning how to hear prayer, because the prayer would be constant. Have more faith (heh) that Jade's abilities won't screw her over like that.

Even on the off chance something does go wrong, Neph, Agneyastra, or the thread would notice and take precautions against worship in the future. Discovering pitfalls like that is the point of experimentation, after all.

Thedas is about 100 gallons of "nope" in a gallon jug, IMO. The land of confused morality and really messed up sh*t. And the City is even more "nope" than Thedas proper.

Thedas is the type of place where we could literally burn half of the continent with cleansing hellfire and be fairly confident in improving the situation, so long as we were careful to burn the correct half. :V
 
You have no evidence whatsoever that's the case; if worshippers can't influence the personality of a god/godling normally, why would EL change that? Zero influence multiplied by magic is still zero.
What Sigurd says is that the act of worship itself doesn't change it, but prayers are also words. Regular words change regular people, why gods would be any different?
 
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34.7: ALL The Spoilers
[X] Let Neph take over for a little while.
-[X] Tell the others this is happening.
-[X] Finish your apology and justifications while you're at it. You'd love to do the construct thingie, you really would, but it has problems.
-[X] Remind her to tell you what she's supposed to be.


"Guys? I'm going to let a voice from my soul take over for a bit. I think she's the reason why my 'instincts' let me pull magic out of thin air."

Across the room, you see Nanoha hold up one hand to her partner and turn to you. She looks slightly befuddled.

"O...kay...?"

"Go ahead, Jade. I will be certain to take appropriate disciplinary actions if it doesn't relinquish control in a timely manner."


You're more than halfway convinced Neph is going to scoff at that, but she actually seems to respect the implied threat. Subsequently letting Neph take over feels different than you'd expected. Normal channeling seems to involve letting a disproportionately high amount of a color dominate your soul. Giving her control just hands it off to a different part of your soul, you think. You're pretty sure you could do it again, albeit at a rather high cost. It'd also last much less time if she wasn't already lucid.

(Ability Discovered: Channel Neph(?) [Rank 1] [RRRRR RRRR])

(Personal Mana Production Increased: [RRRRR -> RRRRRR])

Neph pokes the closest patient and furrows her brow. Following what she's doing proves to be rather difficult; the memory is a confusing jumble of references to memories you can't recall and skills you don't have. It's still enough for you to work out a basic version of what Neph did: sympathetically linked together cancer, told the cleansing to purge all of it nearby, and then slowed the process enough to ensure it doesn't just jump across the room faster than the healers can keep up.

(Ability Discovered and Improved: Chain Spell [Rank 0 -> 3])

(Ability Discovered and Improved: Slow Spell [Rank 0 -> 3])

(Ability Improved: Red Cleansing [Rank 23 -> 25])

"Everyone in this room is going to be cured of cancer in order of closest to me to furthest away, complete with internal burns," Neph speak-sings. "Please start healing their internal injuries as soon as you can."

You aren't sure if you should be objecting or not. That is so not the slow way. And since it seemed to actually be safe, why didn't she propose it instead of the complicated constructs?

The sight of purple lightning leaping from the first patient to three more is enough to jolt nearby healers into action. The group surrounding you quickly disperses, frantically whispering among themselves. You could eavesdrop, but you don't care enough to do so.

So, I really am sorry about refusing you. I'd love to do it, but—

Limited time, didn't expect to fly anyway, heard it before but thanks, apology accepted. This is the present, right? It's so hard to keep track sometimes. Wait, never mind, you'd answer the same way even if this was a future. Ugh.

...Um...?


Neph sighs.

So I think I'm the part of you that got granted full precog access. Like, I think I'm technically older than you by now? We often think I might turn into a divine aspect or something, but we haven't made it far enough to find out. I might technically be one already. I don't know, okay?

Speaking of important future stuff, yes, Agneyastra loves us and Indira seems to as well, but Indira is also arrogant and sees no problem with destabilizing the Slao Cluster just so she can move freely through it, so... yeah. Still not sure what the "Champion" thingie is all about, but Olivie has a weaker White version we'll notice during the Jewel Seed stuff.


You spend a few seconds of your turn solely on Neph's claim of identity. It makes sense, you think, but you feel as though that was too easy.

You're just... telling me that? No dancing around the subject?

I've already done the mystery-chasing stuff so many times and don't feel like doing it from this side. If it helps any, I'm pretty sure there's someone else in here, too, and I don't know who or what.

Ugh. Because why have two minds in my soul when we could have three?

I think we're closer to overlays, really. Only, well, with extra memories as the modifier instead of personality stuff. You frequently access my memory without noticing and we still use the same soul-bits to do most of our thinking. We just diverge when it comes to accessing the part labeled 'memories related to precog.'

Why the reckless construct thing, then? If you're me, you should know that wouldn't have worked. The chain-cleansing would've been better for that.

I'm you plus, like, maybe a year of memories from who knows how many timelines. It's hard to track since we have fifty million different dates to deal with and they don't go in chronological order. And it's because if you have more magical knowledge, then that'll be the baseline for getting me better magic. Plus, I only really get openings when you have an urgent problem you care about. Those barely ever pop up these days.

I don't remember you showing up when Siofra had problems? Or Calypso? Those were both urgent.

I helped with that second one, actually. I think. This is one of the timelines where we ran, right?

...Yes? Did something bad happen in the others?

Um, probably not? I didn't really see any timelines where she managed to mindslave us, but I only started when we arrived at the temple, so, um... Anyway! One where she got close, but then got cocky and wanted to demonstrate her magic would trump Red overchanneling. Spoilers: It didn't. Branching universe theory is BS, we don't make binary yes/no decisions or whatever, so it's not like I've had to experience a ton of Bad Ends.

Speaking of unhappy ends, Mr. Mad Scientist has a bunch of combat cyborgs and one mostly-vanilla lightning mage speedster in desperate need of a hug. Don't let Mom use missiles or other lethal stuff on any of them, and if you can manage it, get Olivie to lay off as well. Most of the cyborgs are good people with crappy upbringings, but they all take the kiddie gloves off when lethal attacks start flying around. Mom seriously needs lessons on the concept of escalation. Also, they make really good worshippers.


Why is that a priority?

Look, the less you can lose, the less I experience losing. The more worshippers we have, the more effective some of our spells and abilities become. Ergo, worshippers equal power equal fewer possible futures where we lose.

Whatever happened to fan clubs?

Celebrity fads come and go, but religion persists. Without it, we basically need to stay in the public eye to keep their attention. It's like, yeah, trying on new outfits is fun and all, but that's for us. We don't want the multiverse to see us in most of them.

I think that comparison got away from you.

And I think I'm running out of time, so please let me talk unopposed for a bit? The mother of that one lightning speedster is basically an SS-class magician specializing in massive AOE bombardment, but she goes straight to lethal. Jail is S+, goes with lethal against Olivie and nonlethal against us, but that's mostly because he wants to capture us and clone a pseudo-Agni cyborg army, so, uh, don't get in Olivie's way. They also stole an Agni battlecruiser that refuses to recognize us if we try to tell it to. Jail successfully 'convinced' it that real Agni prove their existence through actions only. Never mind that talking is an action.

Mom is insistent you use titles for Olivie, but she actually prefers we don't so long as she's sure it isn't a sign of deliberate disrespect. Telling her we know she prefers it because precog OP usually works just fine for avoiding that. Deaths are inevitable for the JS incident, but if we wait any longer than another month it makes the Seeds stronger, so don't worry about it. Hayate is one of the people linked to the infamously planet-killing Book of Darkness, keep her safe and relaxed during JS or you'll have another group of mages fighting literally everyone and winning. Breaking that tether is a tradeoff, you'll know what I mean when you see it.

Don't freeze our home plane once we unfreeze Nanoha's, they're handling stuff just fine over there. I'm on the fence for whether you should freeze Thedas instead — they'd win a war against abominations with heavy casualties, but they're kinda used to them and it'd make it easier to actually uplift them without serious religion-birthed resistance. Also, the Titan blood stuff is like holy crap what the hell OP. Their post-war footsoldiers can cut Seekers apart with just daggers. I think Mom was going to check if the blood had made it into their ores as well since that's just plain stupid. Downside of leaving it unfrozen is that the Fade becomes a lot more dangerous, which makes it harder to retrieve really nice artifacts without a fight.

Upside of freezing and going straight there after raiding Nanoha's plane for some low-hanging stuff is that we could aim for some besieged people praying for aid from their Maker and basically get worship without starting up a local Agni branch.

That one turtle world is boring and balanced right now, don't bother. Home could use some safer soul-cleansing techniques, Reds are kinda scrawed since their cleansing is harder despite being so effective. Shiva would start to suffer a stress-induced breakdown if we had him look after scientist-Sparks, their sense of self-preservation is broken.

Spend some time practicing Red overchanneling before JS, the healing time goes down a lot as we get better. Siofra's souls have the new enchantment handled, stay out of their way for a bit. A few of our branch cousins are incestuous creepers, avoid them.


Oh, eww.

Don't go on a date with Nanoha yet, it ends in stress and awkwardness. That's all I can think of right now. Any questions? Have time for one or two, I think.




[] Spend the time telling Neph how that was not in any way, shape, or form the "slow method" of healing. You wanted to teach them how to do it themselves, not that quick-and-gone Chain Cleansing thingie.

[] Write-in Questions

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...so wait, Neph is basically a Peggy Sue of Jade? That's interesting. And I'll admit, Neph having to ask for time to talk unopposed really does sell that she might be part of Jade/an alternate version of Jade; I seem to recall Mitra or Agneyastra mentioning that Jade does better without interruptions several updates ago. So that much checks out, so I'm tentatively willing to trust that Neph won't willingly lead us into disaster. The problem, as it has been for a while with Agneyastra and others, is that our definition of disaster doesn't necessarily align with Neph's; heck, given how things have gone in the past few pages alone, we can't even agree on what would qualify as disastrous, aside from the obvious.

I don't have any questions; I am quite bad at votecrafting without a framework to work off of. So I'll wait until someone assembles a battery of questions I like and vote for that.
 
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