[] Best course of actions in regards to giving Nanoha Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc.
I don't have any problem with your wording - if, as I think, finding the right donor isn't an issue, Neph will just gloss over that part. My argument was against
[] Who is the optimum candidate for transplanting the Mage gift into Nanoha?

I still think we should ask next time:
Asking about the mage gift transfer now means we can't use it as an urgent problem (aka Neph bait) later. It might be a meta reason, but that question is too valuable to ask now, when Neph is already lucid.
 
I disagree, but I doubt I could convince you without going into a full-blown essay.
The very short version is: In an infinite multiverse, there's infinite Earths. The nine planes we have access to were hand-picked (doylist: GM, watsonian: planeswalker), which explains both the three Earths and nine humanities. Outside our little section of the multiverse, we'd find more Remnants, Earthlands, Charas, Thedas', ...
Except that humanity didn't originate on MGLN!Earth, but there is evidence on MGLN!Earth that humanity originated there.
Asking about the mage gift transfer now means we can't use it as an urgent problem (aka Neph bait) later. It might be a meta reason, but that question is too valuable to ask now, when Neph is already lucid.
Later it would be more costly (just time, I hope) to change our plans. Better get important information now.
 
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@curiosity: Using the gift transfer as the lead question of a Q&A might save us a permanent +1 cost increase on channeling Neph. I think that's well worth waiting a day or two.

And yes, it will eventually decay, but the timescale for that is months (Alivaril stated "longer than landbonds").
 
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Why wouldn't we channel her again two days from now? We can do it at will.

Before the JS incident, we plan to have multiple Q&A sessions. Each one without an urgent reason incurs a +1.
The surcharge decay takes longer than landbonds, so we can't get rid of the entire cost increase.

Let's say we have n sessions and k < n decays.
Cost at the end of the timefreeze: n-k
If one of the sessions is for free (no increase), that reduces it to (n-1)-k

So on any relevant timescale, the cost difference will persist.

The value of getting one session without increasing the cost is equal to the penalty on the n-th session, which is between n-k and n.
 
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Why wouldn't we channel her again two days from now? We can do it at will.
For the situation to count as urgent, it would have to be urgent, e.g. channeling Neph just before the procedure. I don't see that happening as soon as two days.
Before the JS incident, we plan to have multiple Q&A sessions. Each one without an urgent reason incurs a +1.
The surcharge decay takes longer than landbonds, so we can't get rid of the entire cost increase.

Let's say we have n sessions and k < n decays.
Cost at the end of the timefreeze: n-k
If one of the sessions is for free, that reduces it to (n-1)-k

So on any relevant timescale, the cost difference will persist.
Yes, but it's not a significant cost. We have plenty of Red mana. And the "slower than landbonds" decrease is only due to time passed. There may be other factors.
 
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For the situation to count as urgent, it would have to be urgent, e.g. channeling Neph just before the procedure. I don't see that happening as soon as two days.
Getting Nanoha her mage gift is already urgent - we just finished data collection, next step is optimization, for which we want Neph's input. Even if the procedure is e.g. a week away, the entire process is urgent. We're on a deadline and need her ready.

What do we lose if we ask next time? Even if it doesn't count as sufficiently urgent, we still have (barely) enough time to get Nanoha's gift upgraded. Delaying the question costs us a tiny bit of progress and has a decent chance to get us the 'urgent' bonus.

Yes, but it's not a significant cost. We have plenty of Red mana. And the "slower than landbonds" decrease is only due to time passed. There may be other factors.
Slower than landbonds is Neph's observed duration. That includes "other factors". Sure, if we eventually figure out the mechanism we might see a slight decrease in decay time, but for now the timescale is around a month.



To clarify, asking now is merely an inefficiency, I don't really mind. My main problem was with the previous phrasing which only asked about the donor.

I still think asking next time would be better overall, but it's minor.



I looked at the votes and grouped different versions of the same question. Looks like a three-way tie on the second place.
Adhoc vote count started by Nachtigall on Aug 12, 2018 at 9:50 AM, finished with 64443 posts and 19 votes.

  • [X] Any advice about Agneyastra's Djinn abilities?
    [X] If we wanted to help out Mitra's various problems how would we do it?
    [X] Any low-hanging fruit on the King-Selection plane?
    [X] "Best course of actions in regards to giving Nanoha Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc. "
    [X] (If there's still time left) How long it'd take to make a summon bond with Sigurd? How much it'd clash with our other plans?
    [X] Is it a good idea to try channeling or overchanneling other colors?
    [X] Why are you glaring at me?
    [X] What should i pick for my second question?
    [X] Spend the time telling Neph how that was not in any way, shape, or form the "slow method" of healing.
    [X] After leaving Magnostadt:
    -[X] Tell the party about terms of engagement for the JS incident. Fate needs a hug.
    [X] Ask Agneyastra how she compensates for being blind to three of the colors of mana. Does it hamper her research on improving the mage gift?
    [X] Does the 'Be a celebrity' approach never work, or is it just somewhat less reliable?
    [X] Questions for later:
    -[X] Eyesparkles?
    -[X] Best way to help my phobia of mind magic?
    -[X] Demonstrations of advanced spellsteal, non-lethal chain lightning, dragon shapeshifting?
    -[X] Any common misconceptions about colors/spells that I or other Jades have made?
    -[X] "Hayate is one of the people linked to the Book of Darkness", who else?
    -[X] What kind of chaos happens if Kladenets recognizes me as heir?
    -[X] Any low-hanging fruit on Nanoha's home plane?
    -[X] Pitfalls when interacting with Indira?
    -[X] If still unsure: Advised general approach with Indira?
    -[X] Who's Holly? (Adept Marina? Features would match)
    -[X] Can I update my magical girl form to match the artificial vessel? Or duplicate the fireproof clothes?
    -[X] Has anyone of us found any evidence of Sylvester Agni among the planes? Where?
    -[X] Is the "no immortality" mental filter on Nanoha's home plane safe to mess with?
    [X] Questions to ask soon:
    -[X] Any reason against resettling that ruined capital city? If not, repair spell?
    -[X] Any low-hanging fruit on the King-Selection plane?
    -[X] Best course of action in regards to giving Nanoha her Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc.
    -[X] If we wanted to fix Mitra's access/avatar problems where do we go?
    -[X] Tips on Siofra's Origin?
    -[X] Tips for summoning from an unfreezing plane?
    -[X] Is it safe to channel/overchannel the other colors?
    [X] For future Q&A sessions, pass all questions through Blue and Red channeling first to get as much info as possible (can be done en masse). Start with an urgent issue to bring Neph to the fore. Potentially urgent:
    -[X] resettling ruined capital
    -[X] mage gift transfer to Nanoha
    -[X] finding out about apocalypse cult
    -[X] summoning while MGLN unfreezes
    [X] What's that Black/Green effect?
    [X] Thanks for your help!
    [X] Any interesting casualties if we practice Red Overchanneling?
    [X] Questions that are unlikely to work, but high reward:
    -[X] Make an artifact on par with Sidhe's earrings?
    -[X] Chance of loosening the output limit on my pendant?
    -[X] Where to find Agni artifacts to recognize me as heir?
    -[X] Precommit to helping with unlocking Nanoha's and Sidhe's aura, ask for forwarded knowledge?
 
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[ ] Best course of actions in regards to giving Nanoha Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc.
You know, since we are asking about soul-based upgrades to Nanoha it makes me want to see how to make her a godling. Maybe giving Neph an opening in the question since Jade may not be IC aware of the possibility?

[ ] Best course of actions in regards to upgrading Nanoha's soul? Mage gift donors, procedures, etc.
 
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You know, since we are asking about soul-based upgrades to Nanoha it makes me want to see how to make her a godling. Maybe giving Neph an opening in the question since Jade may not be IC aware of the possibility?

[ ] Best course of actions in regards to upgrading Nanoha's soul? Mage gift donors, procedures, etc.
Neph doesn't seem to be a genie bound to the limits of our question. If it's something within realms of easy probability she could just say "it's easier to skip mage gifting and just make her a godling". I mean, I see your point, at least somewhat, but it might be too broad. Plus, I don't think she'll be able to get a handle on a whole ascension package before JS incident.
 
Getting Nanoha her mage gift is already urgent - we just finished data collection, next step is optimization, for which we want Neph's input. Even if the procedure is e.g. a week away, the entire process is urgent. We're on a deadline and need her ready.
By that logic you can justify anything even remotely related to JS as urgent. Therefore, no need to save this question.
What do we lose if we ask next time? Even if it doesn't count as sufficiently urgent, we still have (barely) enough time to get Nanoha's gift upgraded. Delaying the question costs us a tiny bit of progress and has a decent chance to get us the 'urgent' bonus.
What if it's completely different from what we were about to do? And that week or two would have mattered for getting it done in the current time frame?
 
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By that logic you can justify anything even remotely related to JS as urgent. Therefore, no need to save this question.
The transfer is soon, later changes are far harder, and Jade cares about Nanoha. Bonus for potentially being urgent enough to ask without raising Neph's channeling cost.
Answered that already. We don't care about most things on a personal level.

What if it's completely different from what we were about to do? And that week or two would have mattered for getting it done in the current time frame?
How do you get a delay of a "week or two" from waiting until the day after tomorrow?
 
[X] Any advice about Agneyastra's Djinn abilities?
[X] "Best course of actions in regards to giving Nanoha Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc. "
 
Explaining humanity is as easy as saying "in the last several hundred million years, there was another planeswalker who was human or had human followers". Explaining Earths with their close historical parallels (their history seem similar enough up to the last several decades) is far, far harder.
...Humanity is maybe 1 million years old, IRL, with a very generous definition of "human".
Mitra called them pockets, Jade sees them as mana just like she interprets souls as mana. They might be something else, but until we know, we might as well call them mana pockets.

The eyesparkles are not identical, but I doubt they're unrelated. The underlying process should be the same even if execution differs. To me, asking Sidhe is just common sense. Her theory might not be applicable for Nanoha, but it might also solve the mystery.
Fair point on the second. As for the first, that phrasing is somewhat ambiguous. Could be a turn-of-phrase, could be an analogy.
There's no IC reason to believe that the multiverse is infinite, or that there is an infinite number of planes. Or that similar variants of planets will appear in them (because no, 0 times infinity depends on the properties of both zero (chance of finding a similar Earth) and infinity (the number of universes)).
I mean..."infinte" is probably a meaningless concept, given the nature of the Blind Eternities. We do know there's more than just these planes, since apparently these ones have been put in a bubble by a predecessor of ours to protect them from the Eldrazi. We could, in theory, pop the bubble, but I think it would probably doom the 9 planes inside. And also make Alivaril a very sad space whale QM.
 
How do you get a delay of a "week or two" from waiting until the day after tomorrow?
See the other paragraph in that post. Was written under the assumption that we would need to ask right before the procedure.
Answered that already. We don't care about most things on a personal level.
That is reasonable. Do you have anything better to ask that falls under the following condition?
If channeling Neph is prohibitive, we should ask questions for which we have not a slightest clue first.
 
Well, I voted to ask
[X] What's that Black/Green effect?
[X] Quick advice on fixing Agneyastra's Unison capabilities? Who to talk to/where to go.
We have no clue about mana generation, plus we only have one chance to observe the effect.

I'm pretty sure the winning vote won't change, though.



Look, we're probably going to be questioned by some guy who wants to know how we're supposed to be different from the maker of this world, Solomon, and other sufficiently powerful mages. That'll be fun. Really.

On the less-fun end, we have council arguments, politics, our own doubts, etcetera.
We should probably plan for that.
Where was that handy explanation from Sigurd...

And we still haven't gone shopping. We didn't buy anything in Prosperity because it'll be cheaper at the source, Magnostadt.
Oh, what should we get Sidhe for her birthday?

The Blue quarterstaff looted from Orias' dungeon might work, but we don't know yet. Better to have something in reserve.
Hmm... her elemental affinity (or however you call it) is air and she wants to work with ice, right? A tome or enchanted item for something like DA's cone of cold or hand of winter would be brilliant. Sidhe seems the type to go for crowd control.



@curiosity: Some people mind if they're pinged, others like me want to get alerts whenever someone responds to them - what do you prefer?
 
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We have no clue about mana generation, plus we only have one chance to observe the effect.

I'm pretty sure the winning vote won't change, though.
We have a big clue on that, though. It is lying in this very room, leaking Black and Green mana. This was one of my old votes, so a thing I already considered. No vote it is, then.

And even if the winning vote doesn't change, we may get a response "don't worry about it" and a chance to ask the second question.
@curiosity: Some people mind if they're pinged, others like me want to get alerts whenever someone responds to them - what do you prefer?
Normally, users get alerts when their posts are quoted. This is what I prefer. But a mention is also fine. As long as you are doing at least one of these things when you reply to me, I don't mind which. Thank you.

Also, mentions don't work in edits. Beware when trying to ask Alivaril.
 
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On eyesparkles: While we don't quite understand the underlying mechanism, given the timing they appeared (and the fact that we've only ever seen them on Nanoha/Sidhe), we can be pretty darn sure the the cause/catalyst was the summon-bond.

Incidentally, if this means Sigurd's going to have eyesparkles too, we might want to reconsider him joining the party. Not sure my brain can handle that. :V



Update to vote, since it seems like my preferred second question of asking Neph about channeling won't make the cut:

[X] Any advice for fixing Agneyastra's Djinn capabilities, so we can safely use Unison? Who to talk to/where to go.
[X] "Best course of actions in regards to giving Nanoha Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc. "
[X] Any low-hanging fruit on the King-Selection plane?
Adhoc vote count started by Sapient_Ham on Aug 12, 2018 at 3:37 PM, finished with 145 posts and 18 votes.

  • [X] Any advice about Agneyastra's Djinn abilities?
    [X] "Best course of actions in regards to giving Nanoha Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc. "
    [X] If we wanted to help out Mitra's various problems how would we do it?
    [X] Any low-hanging fruit on the King-Selection plane?
    [X] (If there's still time left) How long it'd take to make a summon bond with Sigurd? How much it'd clash with our other plans?
    [X] Is it a good idea to try channeling or overchanneling other colors?
    [X] Who's the best person to talk to about Djinn magic in the next 2 weeks?
    [X] Quick advice on fixing Agneyastra's Unison capabilities? Who to talk to/where to go.
    [X] Any interesting casualties if we practice Red Overchanneling?
    [X] (If there's still time left) Who is the optimum candidate for transplanting the Mage gift into Nanoha?
    [X] What's the best way to meld "getting a summon bond with Sigurd before JS" with our other plans?
    [X] Why are you glaring at me?
    [X] What should i pick for my second question?
    [X] "Who is the optimum candidate for transplanting the Mage gift into Nanoha?"
    [X] Would other color Overchanneling be bad for our health?
    [X] Thanks for your help!
    [X] For future Q&A sessions, pass all questions through Agneyastra, Blue and Red channeling first to get as much info as possible (can be done en masse). Start with an urgent issue to bring Neph to the fore. Potentially urgent:
    -[X] resettling ruined capital
    -[X] mage gift transfer to Nanoha
    -[X] finding out about apocalypse cult
    -[X] summoning while MGLN unfreezes
    [X] Any advice for fixing Agneyastra's Djinn capabilities, so we can safely use Unison? Who to talk to/where to go.
    [X] After leaving Magnostadt:
    -[X] Tell the party about terms of engagement for the JS incident. Fate needs a hug.
    [X] What's that Black/Green effect?
    [X] Questions that are unlikely to work, but high reward:
    -[X] Make an artifact on par with Sidhe's earrings?
    -[X] Chance of loosening the output limit on my pendant?
    -[X] Where to find Agni artifacts to recognize me as heir?
    -[X] Precommit to helping with unlocking Nanoha's and Sidhe's aura, ask for forwarded knowledge?
    [X] Questions for later:
    -[X] Eyesparkles?
    -[X] Best way to help my phobia of mind magic?
    -[X] Demonstrations of advanced spellsteal, non-lethal chain lightning, dragon shapeshifting?
    -[X] Any common misconceptions about colors/spells that I or other Jades have made?
    -[X] "Hayate is one of the people linked to the Book of Darkness", who else?
    -[X] What kind of chaos happens if Kladenets recognizes me as heir?
    -[X] Any low-hanging fruit on Nanoha's home plane?
    -[X] Pitfalls when interacting with Indira?
    -[X] If still unsure: Advised general approach with Indira?
    -[X] Who's Holly? (Adept Marina? Features would match)
    -[X] Can I update my magical girl form to match the artificial vessel? Or duplicate the fireproof clothes?
    -[X] Has anyone of us found any evidence of Sylvester Agni among the planes? Where?
    -[X] Is the "no immortality" mental filter on Nanoha's home plane safe to mess with?
    [X] Questions to ask soon:
    -[X] Any reason against resettling that ruined capital city? If not, repair spell?
    -[X] Any low-hanging fruit on the King-Selection plane?
    -[X] Best course of action in regards to giving Nanoha her Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc.
    -[X] If we wanted to fix Mitra's access/avatar problems where do we go?
    -[X] Tips on Siofra's Origin?
    -[X] Tips for summoning from an unfreezing plane?
    -[X] Is it safe to channel/overchannel the other colors?
    [X] Ask Agneyastra how she compensates for being blind to three of the colors of mana. Does it hamper her research on improving the mage gift?
 
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34.8: Optimized Spoilers
[X] Any advice about Agneyastra's Djinn abilities?

Try to get her to stop being so worried about it. Yeah, it'll hurt some if you jump in without weeks of prep, but so long as you know that part ahead of time and are OK with it, it won't trip any of those irritating traps left on Mom. Slower route is to go about two hours north-northwest to a swamp dungeon and then ask the djinn there for help getting it to work; Bifrovs is more intrigued by the fusion than she's bothered by our theft of the power. She does consistently betray us if we fail her stupidly hidden tests, though, which is irritatingly unpredictable. The Yambala Gladiators are safer, I think, and Magnostadt has done a lot toward tracking them down.


[X] "Best course of actions in regards to giving Nanoha Mage Gift? Donors, procedure itself, etc."

What's our best route for giving Nanoha a good Mage Gift?

Taking the colorblind version from a Velgarth Adept-potential, then permanently sacrificing the mana of a fifth of our lands — any inhabitants would be fine — and a fifth of our personal power to give Nanoha a bunch of perks, including fire immunity. We'd keep our own, wouldn't be at any real risk, and you wanna overchannel Red during the process. Nanoha wouldn't start out as a godling, but she'd become one with a few hundred dedicated worshipers. We're not sure if she can go full divine, though. Worship doesn't stretch across planes, you can be a full god on one, a godling on another, and a measly demigod on the third. Works across dimensions. Velgarth's fire plane isn't all it's cracked up to be, most inhabitants have a worse attention span than our Yuuno. Speaking of which, make sure Mom preps some of the tools needed for treating Familiars. You'll need them within the first hour of JS and then again at the end of it.

Real quick: Summoning me without waiting for lucidity increases the cost by a full Red mote. It slowly sinks back down over time, but we've yet to figure out if that's from new landbonds, waiting, or something else. Also, if you rely too much on me, I never see you doing relevant research or having the skills and thus never actually learn what we need. Annnnd I can't explore all of every timeline possible, just semi-random portions of them. I usually don't need to deal with filler, my aim might be wonky but I do have some control. Not sure what my max range is, maybe six months or so? 'Lucidity' might not be a figure of speech, we've had mixed results from targeting me with spells intended to interact with dreaming targets.

Don't get upset if Nanoha goes on any dates with blondes, it doesn't work out. Tell Mom I said 'hi' and that Indira is a terrible mother believing gilded cages are good for us and that mortals are basically pets, so Mom doesn't need to worry about negative comparison at all. Good luck!


Neph's presence vanishes with jarring abruptness. You blink several times and try to take stock of the surrounding area. Healers are still scrambling around the room, desperately trying to keep up with the internal burning Neph gave most of them. Nanoha is partly chatting with a few mages your own age and partly sneaking glances at you. A few remaining sparks drift down from your hair, which was apparently made out of fire. You fuzzily remember something about Neph doing that last part on purpose, maybe? You think it might be something she did out of sheer force of habit. You'll still need a some practice before you can manage to make the effect as cheap as she did, but you should have a good start.

(Ability Discovered & Improved: Redhead Fire Vessel [Rank 0 -> 1])

You spend a few moments checking your personal mana generation. Sure enough, the increase from five daily motes to six motes seems to have been permanent. You hadn't even realized that could happen. You've been rather focused on your wings and a few other methods of applying constructs and mana control. What other important details did you miss in the process?

Well, whatever. With everyone momentarily distracted, you think you could check out the man generating Green/Black without anyone being able to steer you away. Judging by how he doesn't have anyone trying to heal him, you're a little worried leaving him like that might be deliberate.



[] Go over and scan the red-haired living mana generator.
-[] Purge anything harming him with Red once you've learned what you wanted. Magnostadt's mages clearly aren't going to do more than merely keep him alive.

[] Recap the non-embarassing parts of Neph's messages to your friends and family, then encourage them to share their own thoughts on her.

[] Fetch Nanoha, meet up with Sidhe, and go shopping for Enchantments, artifacts, and spells.
-[] Focus on Red enchantments and effects.
-[] Do a cursory scan of everything you can find, but don't get too bogged down looking at any one thing.

[] Write-in



Voting will be locked for 90 minutes after this first goes up.
 
our Yuuno. Speaking of which, make sure Mom preps some of the tools needed for treating Familiars. You'll need them within the first hour of JS and then again at the end of it.
SHENANIGANS INCOMING.

I can't wait to see the reactions to those names. Both Yuunos are going to be so confused.
Don't get upset if Nanoha goes on any dates with blondes, it doesn't work out.
...Okay, can someone that's more familiar with MGLN explain how we've already cockblocked Fate?
What other important details did you miss in the process?
Huh. I suppose that that's a "hint hint". Sounds like learning to overchannel might also teach us how to pull more mana out of ourselves without overchanneling and damaging ourselves?
 
Try to get her to stop being so worried about it. Yeah, it'll hurt some if you jump in without weeks of prep, but so long as you know that part ahead of time and are OK with it, it won't trip any of those irritating traps left on Mom. Slower route is to go about two hours north-northwest to a swamp dungeon and then ask the djinn there for help getting it to work; Bifrovs is more intrigued by the fusion than she's bothered by our theft of the power. She does consistently betray us if we fail her stupidly hidden tests, though, which is irritatingly unpredictable. The Yambala Gladiators are safer, I think, and Magnostadt has done a lot toward tracking them down.

Assuming our schedule allows it, I'm fine with trying both of these. Dungeon diving is always fun, even if it fails. The Yambala Gladiators were the people who trained Sinbad in canon, and might be interesting to meet regardless.

Taking the colorblind version from a Velgarth Adept-potential, then permanently sacrificing the mana of a fifth of our lands — any inhabitants would be fine — and a fifth of our personal power to give Nanoha a bunch of perks, including fire immunity. We'd keep our own, wouldn't be at any real risk, and you wanna overchannel Red during the process. Nanoha wouldn't start out as a godling, but she'd become one with a few hundred dedicated worshipers. We're not sure if she can go full divine, though. Worship doesn't stretch across planes, you can be a full god on one, a godling on another, and a measly demigod on the third. Works across dimensions.

...holy fuck, I wasn't expecting anything near that detailed. What has Jade been doing in these possible futures? (And only 6 months out?)

Anyway, I'm fully onboard with pursuing the Agni Godling Nanoha route, assuming Nanoha is okay with it and we can find a willing Adept-potential. Agneyastra will be thrilled with the mere possibility, I'm sure. Less okay with sacrificing so much our mana before the JS incident, so we might want to wait until after the incident before doing this.

Don't get upset if Nanoha goes on any dates with blondes, it doesn't work out.

:V:V:V
 
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[X] Go over and scan the red-haired living mana generator.
-[X] Purge anything harming him with Red once you've learned what you wanted. Magnostadt's mages clearly aren't going to do more than merely keep him alive.
[X] Recap the non-embarassing parts of Neph's messages to your friends and family, then encourage them to share their own thoughts on her.
 
Don't get upset if Nanoha goes on any dates with blondes, it doesn't work out.
Welp. Neph is no longer Best Side-Personality if this means she anti-ships NanoFate.

("But what about NanoJade?" It'll be alright if Fate joins Jade's entourage too.)

...Okay, can someone that's more familiar with MGLN explain how we've already cockblocked Fate?
I think it has something to do with Nanoha already nursing a massive crush on Jade? I don't agree that she's purely monoamorous - one scene in early Strikers showed Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate all waking up together on the same bed - but I can see the argument.
 
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