Ignition (MTG/Multicross, Planeswalker PC)

[Nachtigall]

While visiting the undercity is a good idea, I'd prefer not to address more city-wide issues this visit. We already intend to approach their Board of Advisors about a non-aggression pact, adding safeguards to the drain enchantment, burning out cancer, and banning fateless rukh. They'll have their hands full with the aftermath of our actions, and besides:

Magnostadt still has no actual leader since the assassination of the last one. We'll probably provoke another round of infighting should we try to open any sort of actual negotiations

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Finding a solution for the undercity won't be easy. The mages need the additional mana, the civilians rely on the compensation:

However, the goi living underground do donate their unused mana in exchange for food, water, and entertainment.
[...]
"Non-mages do not generate any mana that does not go toward maintaining their own bodies. You may not be directly damaging their 'life' unless you overdraw, but you are certainly harming their long-term health. If it has any sort of adjustable control system or component capable of being corrupted, it is also a single point of failure for every lower level; overcharging it may outright kill those within its range."

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Reminder to Jade:

What's the point of learning to sing your words if you don't use that ability?

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@Alivaril: How do we handle birthdays with different calendars and time-freeze around? Yesterday was september 7th Velgarth time and we planned to celebrate Sidhe's birthday (september 22nd) in two weeks, despite her being from Earthland. Will we just ignore synch problems and use subjective time?
That would mean Nanoha gets two birthdays, one with us, one with her family. I approve.

 

[Sapient_Ham]

There's no "White component", because White is not involved in it's function. We just went over this.

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White component equivalent, whatever. Please don't quibble over semantics.

In-general, I expect it to be easier to bypass defenses with other magic types, simply because the spells weren't made by people who knew what those types of magic can do, or how they do them. Blocking mana-based attacks with Linker Core spells is difficult for that exact reason, IIRC.

Edit: For example, spiritual shields wouldn't stop a 0.07 volt current from stimulating our limbic system and making us want to beat the crap out of people, to use an example from a completely different setting.

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I'm not denying different forms of magic might interface weirdly. I'm just saying we have no reason to expect it for Ethernano magic, given how Jade noted it was close to her own magic in the plane description, and how we set out to learn mental shields because of the Calypso incident. Put yourself in the place of a QM: would you make players learn new mental defenses for Earth Land, when they trained their current defenses with Earth Land in mind?

Regardless, this isn't something worth arguing about. We don't disagree substantially, anyway.

 

[Nixeu]

It's a continuous effect (at least, I think it is?). If it's anything remotely like summoning sickness, it means feeling shitty all the time. But yeah, we don't know enough to say for sure what exactly is happening. Maybe that's something we should do? Visit the undercity and observe the process?

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I mean...I feel some degree of sh*tty the majority of the time, and my life is still fine. You kinda get used to it after a while. Doesn't mean it doesn't still suck, but, depending on the ratio of impairment-to-benefits of living in a magically industrialized society, the trade-off may still mean their QoL is overall superior to that of those living elsewhere.

White component equivalent, whatever. Please don't quibble over semantics.

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It's not semantics. The systems are so different, Alivaril decided to seperate them, rather than incorporate Ethernano magic into mana magic. What we're seeing is most likely the colors necessary to replicate the effect, and not necessarily via the same method. You'll note our Sky Dragon Slayer magic done with mana is weaker than Sky Dragon Slayer magic done with Ethernano. That seems to indicate we're missing some aspect from the original spells.

White component equivalent, whatever. Please don't quibble over semantics.



I'm not denying different forms of magic might interface weirdly. I'm just saying we have no reason to expect it for Ethernano magic, given how Jade noted it was close to her own magic in the plane description, and how we set out to learn mental shields because of the Calypso incident. Put yourself in the place of a QM: would you make players learn new mental defenses for Earth Land, when they trained their current defenses with Earth Land in mind?

Regardless, this isn't something worth arguing about. We don't disagree substantially, anyway.

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Slight correction: that goddess may have been using Blue instead of Ethernano. And it depends. I certainly wouldn't allow it to work on Blood-Bending, as the focus was on Blue/Blue-like mind-control, not physical means of control. And, thus, I wouldn't let it work for anything like an electrically-based form of mind control, that manipulates thoughts by electrical stimulation. Which, given the vast array of spells on Earthland, is probably something you can find there. Probably not curses, either.

Now, would it work on the Judgement Field? I'd say probably, unless it's basically removing or bypassing the brain-to-mouth filter, or simply preventing you from speaking physically if you're telling a lie, or something along those lines. Maybe if it's doing a passive soul-scan and making it so only what you think to be true is heard, instead of the lie? Most of those are fairly esoteric, though.

 

[Nachtigall]

Slight correction: that goddess may have been using Blue instead of Ethernano.

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Considering that Earthland gods can use colored mana (see Siofra's experiments, knowledge god's curse on Siofra, fertility goddess' curse on Calypso's temples) and Calypso's earrings produce Blue, that's extremely likely.


@Alivaril: If you don't mind the question, what's the time(-zone) difference between Vale in Remnant, the Eastern Empire in Velgarth, and Magnostadt?
Dates seem to conveniently align, so I assume we only have to consider timezones.

 

[fictionfan]

I personally like that our AI's can't be subtle. It makes their manipulation obvious. The thread is already paranoid about them imagine how much worse it would be if they were subtle?

 

[Sapient_Ham]

Slight correction: that goddess may have been using Blue instead of Ethernano.

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I'm aware, but elected not to include it for the sake of simplicity, so as to not distract from my primary point. (We'd need a specific counter for Earth Land wizards, which would be a bizarre QM choice. Calypso would likely still have access to Ethernano magic, either naturally or by using mana to power Ethernano spells; if she could get around our mental shields through such a simple trick, then our preparations were useless.)

If anything, we should expect mana-based defenses to be more generally applicable than their non-mana equivalents, due to the apparent link to the divine. Actually, that's a pretty good summation for why Planeswalkers are so bullshit: their form of magic can can be adapted to almost anything, because they're wielding magic on a more fundamental level.

Now, would it work on the Judgement Field? I'd say probably, unless it's basically removing or bypassing the brain-to-mouth filter, or simply preventing you from speaking physically if you're telling a lie, or something along those lines. Maybe if it's doing a passive soul-scan and making it so only what you think to be true is heard, instead of the lie? Most of those are fairly esoteric, though.

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*twitches* Those esoteric effects were what I was trying to convey with the "White component"—it's how Jade would interpret the effects, when viewed through the lens of her general Planeswalker bullshit.

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I personally like that our AI's can't be subtle. It makes their manipulation obvious. The thread is already paranoid about them imagine how much worse it would be if they were subtle?

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This is exactly why the restrictions exist, in fact. How paranoid do you think a multi-planet civilization would be, in the face of multiple disasters, and millions of AIs?

 

[Deathbybunnies]

I personally like that our AI's can't be subtle. It makes their manipulation obvious. The thread is already paranoid about them imagine how much worse it would be if they were subtle?

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A valid point. Maybe we could just make them unable to be subtle towards us, and loosen their restrictions when manipulating people who aren't us?

 

[fictionfan]

A valid point. Maybe we could just make them unable to be subtle towards us, and loosen their restrictions when manipulating people who aren't us?

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Be the same logic it makes me feel better about manipulation Agneyastra does with our friends. Sidhe picking a chaste vessel raised some red flags, but given our knowledge of Agneyastra's restrictions we don't need to worry about it.

It even makes it so we don't have to worry about the Rement take over.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Be the same logic it makes me feel better about manipulation Agneyastra does with our friends. Sidhe picking a chaste vessel raised some red flags, but given our knowledge of Agneyastra's restrictions we don't need to worry about it.

It even makes it so we don't have to worry about the Rement take over.

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Ah, by "Us" I meant our in-group, which is pretty selfish of me but as the leader of said group I'm >50% confident that an increase in the AI's ability to manipulate everyone else will end up a net good, even if there are individual moments where Agneyastra finagles something for our benefit at the expense of others.

 

[fictionfan]

Ah, by "Us" I meant our in-group, which is pretty selfish of me but as the leader of said group I'm >50% confident that an increase in the AI's ability to manipulate everyone else will end up a net good, even if there are individual moments where Agneyastra finagles something for our benefit at the expense of others.

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Need a definite definition for our in group. How about "Those we have summon bonds with."

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Need a definite definition for our in group. How about "Those we have summon bonds with."

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Sure, that's a pretty clean definition.

 

[Nixeu]

I'm aware, but elected not to include it for the sake of simplicity, so as to not distract from my primary point. (We'd need a specific counter for Earth Land wizards, which would be a bizarre QM choice. Calypso would likely still have access to Ethernano magic, either naturally or by using mana to power Ethernano spells; if she could get around our mental shields through such a simple trick, then our preparations were useless.)

If anything, we should expect mana-based defenses to be more generally applicable than their non-mana equivalents, due to the apparent link to the divine. Actually, that's a pretty good summation for why Planeswalkers are so bullshit: their form of magic can can be adapted to almost anything, because they're wielding magic on a more fundamental level.

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Interesting thought. Would explain how we have derived knowledge from multiple systems of magic lacking direct links to mana.

*twitches* Those esoteric effects were what I was trying to convey with the "White component"—it's how Jade would interpret the effects, when viewed through the lens of her general Planeswalker bullshit.

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...Not sure what your point is? You made that fairly apparent. My point was that letting ourselves assume every aspect and specific of the effect would match White/Blue mana magic is a bad idea, not that the colors don't tell us anything about the general nature of the effect. Some of the spells on Siofra weren't exactly as we expected from their colors, IIRC.

 

[Nachtigall]

My personal opinion on the colored mana vs. Ethernano issue is that anything we can imitate with Enhanced Learning + mana is functionally similar. The mana variant uses the same magical principles and mechanism, so defenses against one work against the other.
If we can replicate the Judgement Cube's effect with mana, our mental shields definitely should block it.

By the way, according to our devices

Mental defenses on her home plane seem to be unintentional consequences of other things as opposed to something deliberately pursued

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Think Indira will have them?

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Skimming over the story since re-freezing MGLN for timestamps to help with establishing an updated timeline, I found two topics I wanted to comment on.

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Some of the first lands we discovered on Velgarth are actually perfect if we want to study the effects of non-accelerated land bonding on Velgarth:
Unidentified Volcano [RR]
Linna, capital of Arete [U/R + B/W + B/W + G/W]

The volcano should be quick to bond and it's far enough (60km) from civilization that any ley-line disruption shouldn't bother anyone.
Linna has ridiculously few mages, and apart from the court mage and perhaps his two apprentices, none can access ley-lines.
If Sigurd doesn't mind, we could spend some of the time waiting for his summoning bond at the volcano.

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Sylvester Agni at 184 years. Self-sacrifice. Going by his birth date, he should've only been 138 years, six months, and two days old.
[...]
Sylvester Agni vanished for a period of sixty years, abruptly reappearing at a family gathering with no record of how he ended up there.

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So, unlike Jade, who was held back by Kyubey, Sylvester's Ignition probably threw him off-plane without any bonds to follow home. If we assume he had a far greater section of the multiverse available*, it explains why he needed a century to find back to MGLN. Additionally, the planes probably weren't synched back then; 100 external years in 60 on-plane just isn't possible with a freeze mechanism like ours.

*The prevalent theory of the thread back then as we have seen no signs of his actions in our little cluster.

We've seen scientific proof of souls abruptly vanishing without the disintegration associated with true destruction. Combined with a few other factors, we know souls go somewhere else. As dimmed souls are attracted to brighter ones, both in life and in the moments of death, I believe souls will be reunited with the Agni.

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That's the graveyard mechanic, isn't it? Might only work for those we have summon bonds, then.

 

[fictionfan]

That's the graveyard mechanic, isn't it? Might only work for those we have summon bonds, then.

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I am interested if we can get a summon bond from a person worshipping us. I guess we will find out soon from those formor slaves we saved.

If we do get any of them as summon bonds we should buff them up with all the power ups we can manage to make the copies stronger.

 

[Nachtigall]

I guess we will find out soon from those former slaves we saved. If we do get any of them as summon bonds we should buff them up with all the power ups we can manage to make the copies stronger.

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We rarely summon copies of Sidhe or Nanoha. I doubt we'd ever use some random civilian or soldier, so the equipment would be wasted.

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Is anyone against merging in my (recently updated) To-Do list?

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Since nobody objected, I'll adjust the 'Experiments', 'Practice', and 'Infrastructure Projects' tabs of the Ignition SCIENCE/training list.

 

[Gnarker]

We rarely summon copies of Sidhe or Nanoha. I doubt we'd ever use some random civilian or soldier, so the equipment would be wasted.

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We rarely summon copies of them because they're almost always right there with us, they're fairly expensive, and strong enough to take care of themselves. If we could summon rather cheaper but also weaker footsoldiers, using their expendable copies instead of the originals certainly wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Alivaril]

Spoiler: QM's Note

Sorry about the delay; apparently, that project I was recently freed from? Yes, well, neglecting real-life stuff to complete it had consequences. My garden was full of bunnies, warring wasps, and bees (NOT THE BEES), among other stuff I've now taken care of.

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[X] Release the foreign knowledge and purge cancer the long way.

I don't really think I'm comfortable with that. Sorry. If switching around the city colors would do anything even remotely similar to what I'm like under the effects of Red channeling, I don't think Magnostadt could survive that. I'd be OK with a lot of other stuff, but starting an unstable revolution out of simple laziness is just reckless.

You can feel the voice fading, fleeing disappointment and justifications both, before you've even finished half of what you wanted to say.

I'm not done yet.

You drag her back through sheer force of will and a little soul magic. You know you've succeeded in buying yourself some time when you feel surprise not your own. Or... actually, that's wrong. You feel like it is your own, but slightly more detached than the channeling-yous felt? It's kinda like what you'd feel if you ever got around to developing Empathy, you think.

We aren't supposed to be able to do that for months.

Honestly, you're not sure you'll be able to do it again. You think you only managed it because of the urgency. You really wanted to talk to her.

Stubbornness is one of my main redeeming features. Anyway, first, what do I call you? 'The Voice' is dehumanizing.

Um, Neph, I suppose. Look, I'm not sure how long we can keep this up, so could you let me handle the cleansing? The slow way, not with constructs.

Second, you persist, what are you? Are you basically Redder-me?

No clue.

Some idea.

Technically, I guess. Anyway, I'll tell you over healing? Running O O M would harm our image of a goddess.

...Seriously? That's what you're focused on?

Look, we're probably going to be questioned by some guy who wants to know how we're supposed to be different from the maker of this world, Solomon, and other sufficiently powerful mages. That'll be fun. Really.

You push down your own urge to respond and let Neph continue. You get the feeling she isn't done quite yet.

On the less-fun end, we have council arguments, politics, our own doubts, etcetera. Belief is power and the longer we're uncomfortable with the idea of hearing prayers, the longer it'll take for us to gain the powers associated with them. It'd be dumb for me to abuse your trust the one time you wanted to talk to me, so could we ignore our issues for a bit and take the chance?

I'm not sure you don't count as an issue.

See, you're already making quips! That's a good start.

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[] Let Neph take over for a little while.
-[] Finish your apology and justifications while you're at it. You'd love to do the construct thingie, you really would, but it has problems.
-[] Remind her to tell you what she's supposed to be.

[] Refuse. Historically speaking, letting strange voices pilot you has had mixed results. One who might not even be a weird you? Not such a great idea.

[] Write-in

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Voting will be locked for 90 minutes after this first goes up.​

 

[Deathbybunnies]

[] Let Neph take over for a little while.
-[] Remind her to tell you what she's supposed to be.
-[] Tell the others this is happening.

We should probably warn everyone about the takeover, even if we aren't expecting hostile action.

 

[globalwarmth]

[] Let Neph take over for a little while.
-[] Remind her to tell you what she's supposed to be.
-[] Tell the others this is happening.

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Sounds good

We have a good natured evil side!

 

[Dragonpriest888]

More chaotic than evil, red is traditionally very self centered and chaotic. They want to have fun and usually either don't consider the consequences of their actions, or don't care much.

 

[Gnarker]

Fascinating. Neph brings to mind Nepthys, the Egyptian goddess of the desert and assorted poisonous critters, who protects against demons. (As in, she's not soft or light, but she is a force of good.)

*tilts head* What happened to our Witch after we managed to purify our soul via aura, anyway? And when did Redgia show up for the first time?/Wildassedguess

 

[Filraen]

Sounds like things turned out great, and I like how we're in speaking terms with this red voice Neph


If we accept, should we tell Agneyastra first?

[] Let Neph take over for a little while.
-[] Tell the others this is happening.
-[] Remind her to tell you what she's supposed to be.
-[] Finish your apology and justifications while you're at it. You'd love to do the construct thingie, you really would, but you'd prefer do it at a better time.

I don't see how the options go against each other (other than "[] Refuse...")

 

[GardenerBriareus]

[X] Let Neph take over for a little while.
-[X] Tell the others this is happening.
-[X] Finish your apology and justifications while you're at it. You'd love to do the construct thingie, you really would, but it has problems.

Even Neph doesn't know if she's an aspect of ourselves or not, so called... it?

 

[Hestia&theCourt]

Yeah, this seems like less of a deal-breaker, so I'm willing to take a risk on letting Neph take over. Y'know, once voting unlocks.

 

[Sapient_Ham]

And people wonder why I'm convinced the Voice (Neph, apparently) has precognitive capabilities. She's blatantly referencing possible futures!

Anyway, I'm all for letting her take over for a while.

[] Let Neph take over for a little while.
-[] Tell the others this is happening.
-[] Finish your apology and justifications while you're at it. You'd love to do the construct thingie, you really would, but it has problems.

Fascinating. Neph brings to mind Nepthys, the Egyptian goddess of the desert and assorted poisonous critters, who protects against demons. (As in, she's not soft or light, but she is a force of good.)

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Hrm, not sure that's the intended reference, but there are some potential parallels.

Most importantly, you forgot to include the most well-known of Nepthys's associations: she and her sister Isis are often invoked in funerary rites as protectors of the dead, for their role in the Osiris myth.

*tilts head* What happened to our Witch after we managed to purify our soul via aura, anyway? And when did Redgia show up for the first time?/Wildassedguess

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Eh, doubt it. Jade's witch became an impossibility after her soul got fixed, and it wouldn't be anywhere near as nice.

If I had to throw out a wild-assed guess of my own, I'd speculate we might be interacting with a fledgling aspect the goddess that Jade eventually becomes, through Siofra's affinities and the Planeswalker Spark. Siofra was training to be a seer-priestess of some god, right? Well, if Jade is developing the capabilities of a seer-priestess, the goddess she would commune with would likely be... herself. Again, though, wild speculation.

I am fairly sure we're hearing Neph because of Siofra's affinities, however. Still skimming through the story to collect every appearance for a more comprehensive analysis, but Neph's first appearance was in Calypso's temple, warning Jade to G.T.F.O. This was shortly after Jade had her aura awakened, and about a month after Siofra's Ethernano organ was implanted. So it is possible Neph's a result of aura being unlocked. But I'd bet against it; semblances typically don't appear immediately, while a month to see results from an Ethernano organ that passively improves itself at an accelerated rate seems plausible.