The issue is that the methods of spell creation are quite different. While we can, for some reason, replicate Ethernano spells with mana, Ethernano spells are far more...physical, I guess? They've been described as similar to flexing a muscle, whereas mana manipulation is more manipulating the underlying power of the universe, and might be somewhat soul-based, and Linker Core magic is more based in thought (calculations). They have intrinsic differences in function and methodology.
We set a system of magic up and then let it cascade into a spell. That tends to sum up all of our spells...Though thinking about it, that could be the problem; It could be that Ethernano just "dopes" something else in itself and then uses that as a spell. Like telekinesis versus bio-electrokinesis even when both systems use your brain. This might need looking into. Though on the other hand, if it is soul based, it might help our mental shields. And wouldn't that just about figure? The punch wizard magic being used for mind magic?
Again, mana storage material really isn't the correct word for it, and more applies to Dust and, presumably, lyrium. Ethernano's just sort of a wierd kind of radiation/energy that can be used for magical purposes. The biggest difference is in how it can be perceived by those lacking mana sense, despite not being solid matter in most case.
Like a lantern versus a battery? If so then i bet we could get some interesting effects out of making the "light" coming off of it bend at different angles. Maybe we could use Aura as a "lense" if it really is soul magic.
And yeah, the difference in function kinda does mean that we'd have to work from quite nearly the ground up to replicate an effect. We'd need to research precisely how to 'flex' our Origin properly to replicate the spell. Because, again, they're very different systems on a really basic level.
Well i also wanted to see if we could use Aura to form a spell* so it's not like we would be completely out of our depths if we could do that.
*: Not the power source of Semblances. The actual shell of soul that they seem to have. I was thinking that we could use it to make something to fight Grimm and fuel it out of cities worth of people.
I grow more and more confused as to how we can replicate Ethernano effects with mana the more I think about it.
Probably something to do with it recoloring excess soul into something mana-ish. And if they use one type of Ethernano to make more of that type then that makes it interestingly similar to the Aura of Remnant; They both seem, from what i have been told, to be made out of imprints of a persons soul layered unto something again and again.
Given that I find applying that to animate systems rather silly (it's pretty much only useful for catharsis and nothing more), I'm sorta bound to have a problem with it.
It's the sort of thing that leads you to where you should be going anyway, if you are being logical, but is needed because human brains are somewhat...arbitrary about what it thinks is a good reason for doing things. I can't say, off of the top of my head, what else is used for that, but i am sure that there are other things like it in use.
It's not like I even disagree with Sidhe's decision. It's one she was perfectly allowed to make, and I understand why it might seem appealing. I am on psych meds so that I'm not a manic/depressed jackass, you know. It's just that, well, emotions aren't mind-control. They don't control you unless you let them. Comparing that with someone actually making you a slave to their every whim just kinda makes no sense to me.
I think that there are two different conversations going on here; I was talking about how emotions sort of count as a form of mind control even when the "strings" are sort of just dangling in the wind with no one controling them.
And nature is still fundamental, because it's NOT the derivative, it's the whole. Nature describes the entire system, not any one part of it. Gravity and time are part of the system, ergo, they are a part of nature.
And here we go with the "what makes a god" argument all over again. I am somewhat sure that he was talking about earths biosphere. Within which nature becomes a derivative of itself.
The more I think about it, the less likely it seems that Blue mind-control actually operates via neurochemical means. I think it's just imposing orders on the mind, maybe purely through conceptual or neurological (controlling what neurons fire) means.
I actually suspect it to be somewhat like how the Ork WAAAGH works; A second system overlaping with the first, and causing a system to redistribute. With a neurological overlap i would think that there would be some form of probability based control, even if it was something like moving around some bioelectricity to make some parts more likely to fire then others.

Speeking of which: We should see if we can change a enchantment more easily making one and use the "You are fond of me" suit as testing.
So to me the problem is:
Sidhe literally and clearly just told us she considers us family.
Jade clearly doesn't.
There is no way to resolve that without hurting Sidhe. Or lying to her, which is the same thing.
She has a somewhat wonky sense of family; Maybe we could make it something like a "Brother/Sisterhood of something or other" and that would be okay with her?
Actually, this is really weird to me. Why is this weird to Jade? Nanoha practically hugs her every chance she gets. Shouldn't Sidhe be well past the point where she has a personal space exception?

Obviously head in lap is an Agneyastra special, but hugging is weird? I'm almost to the point of thinking Jade's under the influence of something.
That's because of Nanohas Nanoha-ness. It's less that it's weird and more that this is the first "normal" one we have given someone.
How would she react if we told her that we don't know enough about what it's like to have a family (at least of the sibling variety) to be sure how we feel about her?
...That's actually a rather good idea. We could tell her that we don't know that it's like to have a...whatever it is that she wants to be, but that we are willing to figure out what that is like with her.
The one who is offering her absolute trust is Sidhe. Jade's role is to be the kind of person that Sidhe can absolutely trust. We just got through dragging out that Sidhe does in fact have that kind of trust in us, which was half of what getting her to tell us the why was all about. But now we find out that Jade isn't ready to be the kind of person that Sidhe thinks Jade is or should be. It has only a little to do with how much Jade trusts Sidhe, and everything to do with whether Jade is worthy of Sidhe's complete faith.
So we need to either go "WE'RE DOING IT LIVE!" of find another option. Since we would be trying to pack as many sanity checks into the system as we could either way that feels like a good start.
actions speak louder than words, and i'm pretty sure Jade not being good at persons is well known by her friends.
Well yes, but saying something like "I did not think this hugging thing through" might help calm down Sidha if she isn't feeling comfortable about the suddenly-a-hug.
Probably most of it. See: Mitra's little talk with Sidhe and Nanoha.
Not necessarily. That could have been more about "This is a sad person. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to turn them into a sushi roll and make them feel better". Us not having a first person understanding of what some roles feel like when someone is in them might not have come up.
It's kind of weird Jade brings up Indira like that. If Jade were really interested in the idea of 'blood relation as family', she would have pursued the Branch Agni a lot more determinedly.
I think that we were going to get to that at some point but that with all of our advancement going on with that place Timestoped we couldn't have gotten around to it.
 
I almost no longer feel comfortable offering retainership. It is premised on an absolute trust. If Jade can't offer that, then she shouldn't accept. I think it would be pretty shitty of her given the thought process she just used. Really wish there had been a veto earlier if this is where we were going.
The one who is offering her absolute trust is Sidhe. Jade's role is to be the kind of person that Sidhe can absolutely trust. We just got through dragging out that Sidhe does in fact have that kind of trust in us, which was half of what getting her to tell us the why was all about. But now we find out that Jade isn't ready to be the kind of person that Sidhe thinks Jade is or should be. It has only a little to do with how much Jade trusts Sidhe, and everything to do with whether Jade is worthy of Sidhe's complete faith.
You know, I kind of get this. Sidhe's signing up to be mind-controlled here. To be literally incapable of saying "that's it, I'm ditching Jade, she does NOT have my best interests at heart." Because she so much wants to be trusted that she's willing to give up her own capacity to decide whether to do anything but trust Jade.

Meanwhile, Jade is sort of scrabbling around to figure out if Sidhe is really important to her, or just fairly important to her. Sidhe's setting herself up for an unpleasant fate if Jade still has doubts along those lines.

Retainership isn't quite the same as adopting someone into your family, but it's very similar. You commit to providing for someone and protecting them, and they commit to permanent loyalty. It's actually a LOT like many medieval concepts of family in which there is a patriarchal figure at the 'top' of the family hierarchy who has legal control over the family unit.

If Jade doesn't see Sidhe as someone she wants to be comfortable with, someone she really, really does think is a deeply valuable part of her life, then Sidhe's risk of ending up regretting her retainer status goes up pretty sharply.

Not actually mind affecting. You can still think whatever you want.
If it prevents you from making decisions or drags you into doing something other than what you decided to do, because following through on the decision would violate your oath... It affects your mind. Disabling the mind's ability to influence the body, by means other than physical modification of the body, by definition has to be mind-affecting. Unless of course you believe that there is a third element of the mind-body duality, which mediates between the other two. Is that what you were thinking?

It's not. We basically have to stay the course and slowly turn Jade into the kind of person who deserves her loyalty after the fact. I'm just disappointed, for pretty much the first time ever, in Jade as a person.
...Yeah, me too. Her being depressive and stuff didn't disappoint me when I read it. Her stopping to think "wait, is Sidhe really that important to me" kind of does. Given how willing Sidhe has been, how desperate even, to cling to Jade despite the chaotic lifestyle it imposes on her... Well, to borrow a phrase, "a stone would be moved by such loyalty." At least in my opinion.

Points to the last update.
Yeah. We DON'T seem to have control of what Jade thinks of people, and that lack of control over her thought process CAN equate to her not carrying out actions we voted for (in this case, because Jade not feeling the love 'ate' the rest of the vote).

I'm not QUITE ready to just drop my vote, but I'm starting to wonder about it. I might do so if anyone can come up with a vote that credibly represents Jade breaking down and admitting that she isn't dependable enough to accept oaths of retainer-hood from anyone... Although that would probably scare the crap out of Sidhe, so I don't know. So, sticking with my vote.

[Part of my motive is now to push Jade towards being someone who thinks of Sidhe as important; saying the words helps affirm the thoughts]

[X] Try some other method of comforting Sidhe.
-[X] You're still fuzzy on what it all entails, but you don't intend to let anyone become your retainer if you don't already really like them.
-[X] You already treasure Sidhe, oaths or no oaths. She doesn't need to meet any arbitrary standards.
-[X] You aren't a fight away from leaving her. Period.

[X] Ask Sidhe if she wants Nanoha present for the giving of her oaths. It's entirely up to Sidhe, you just wanted to ask.
[X] If the answer to that is "yes," it's probably best to wait for Nanoha to wake up, then accept Sidhe's oath. If not...
[X] Accept Sidhe's oath.
 
[x] You feel like you don't deserve this. You're lucky to have her too, and you don't intend to let anything get in the way of that.
 
"Appreciate" is an awful word to use.
I am not good at wording.
Meanwhile, Jade is sort of scrabbling around to figure out if Sidhe is really important to her, or just fairly important to her. Sidhe's setting herself up for an unpleasant fate if Jade still has doubts along those lines.
I think that the whole point of the Oath is to make the other person in it important to you, so it's less a question of if they are important and more if they are the sort of person that you could be okay with being important to/having be important to you.
Retainership isn't quite the same as adopting someone into your family, but it's very similar. You commit to providing for someone and protecting them, and they commit to permanent loyalty.
Could we be both things? I wanted to keep her as a retainer and a confidant, which i think should solve at least some problems.
If it prevents you from making decisions or drags you into doing something other than what you decided to do, because following through on the decision would violate your oath... It affects your mind. Disabling the mind's ability to influence the body, by means other than physical modification of the body, by definition has to be mind-affecting. Unless of course you believe that there is a third element of the mind-body duality, which mediates between the other two. Is that what you were thinking?
i do believe that is called "other people". And possibly "a straitjacket".
I might do so if anyone can come up with a vote that credibly represents Jade breaking down and admitting that she isn't dependable enough to accept oaths of retainer-hood from anyone... Although that would probably scare the crap out of Sidhe, so I don't know.
Maybe something about no living person being able to handle something like that? Something about the amount of redundant sanity checking needing to be in direct proportion to the amount of people that said sanity is responsible for? I mean this is normally what happens with groups of people, but if one decision is made for more then one person then that decision should be checked for errors in direct proportion to the amount of people that it is being made for.

Or in other words, you should spend energy used for plan checking on plan checking (Which would be a White thing.) rather then set it to below minimum functionality by just using one person (Which would be rather a Black thing).
 
Stop: TIME OUT
time out @Marcus.D.Basterd, you have been repeatedly disruptive to this thread for a long time. Giant spaghetti arguments, passive-aggressive sniping at people, and multiple infractions, all from this thread. This needs to stop. You are being threadbanned for 30 days. Hopefully, this will give you time to reconsider your pattern of behavior in here.
 
They started out as competition, then were revealed as selfish, lying fakes by Agneyastra.
All of them? I am fairly sure that the one who went to work for TSAB at least was an ok person.

Also, when we get back, we should totally leverage our awesome OCP techbase for massive profit, and create a fund for Agni branch members. As long as they acknowledge that they are branch members.
 
All of them? I am fairly sure that the one who went to work for TSAB at least was an ok person.

Also, when we get back, we should totally leverage our awesome OCP techbase for massive profit, and create a fund for Agni branch members. As long as they acknowledge that they are branch members.
IIRC There was another one who is a recluse that may be a legit branch member.
 
"Five: I'm a glorified hanger-on right now. If we ever had a major fight or something happens to you, I'd be stuck with little to no local currency, few belongings to call my own, and no knowledge of the local language. My translator would run out of power sooner or later and foreigners are seldom treated well. Five-point-five: Even if you decide to drop me off somewhere, you'll still be obligated to leave me with what I'd need to live comfortably. Even if you hate me at the time or if I've disappointed you. Six: Back on the Agni home plane, being your retainer will give others a known social slot to put me into. I believe 'confidant' is new and might lead to dismissal, especially if they learn what it actually involves. I'll also be less vulnerable to social missteps. Seven: I expect Agneyastra will be more comfortable spending resources on me if she knows I have your best interests in mind.

"Eight: Unless I'm badly mistaken, any copies of me you make in the future will still be affected by the oath. Speaking of which, Agneyastra? I think it might be a good idea if you add in a few specific actions which wouldn't be OK, ever. They might not be able to hijack the oath itself, but an enemy might be able to bend my mind so I thought killing her body would make her eternally happy or something. I apologize for the diversion, and seven—er, nine, sorry: You're the only family I have right now and I'm lucky to have you. I don't want you to decide I'm not worth your time."

[x] Tell her you think you're lucky to have her too. You like her as a person and you don't intend to let anything get in the way of that.
[x] She's putting a lot of faith in you. You worry that you're not yet capable of treating that the way she deserves. But you're going to try.
[x] Proceed as planned.

Welp, I can't think of anything. Unsure if I actually like the middle line but I'm too tired to evaluate it properly. Basically trying to put Jade's thoughts in the update in a way that relate to the situation at hand.
 
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Welcome back Ignition. Let's party:



Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go laugh at some racist idiots.
 
[x] Tell her you think you're lucky to have her too. You like her as a person and you don't intend to let anything get in the way of that.
[x] She's putting a lot of faith in you. You worry that you're not yet capable of treating that the way she deserves. But you're going to try.
[x] Proceed as planned.
 
[x] Tell her you think you're lucky to have her too. You like her as a person and you don't intend to let anything get in the way of that.
[x] She's putting a lot of faith in you. You worry that you're not yet capable of treating that the way she deserves. But you're going to try.
[x] Proceed as planned.
 
...You know, while we have said we want to find a teacher to help us master Djinn Equip, I don't think we've considered how we're going to find them. It's not like all of them are going to advertise the fact, like Sinbad did. Djinn might be able to teach us some, but I think a King Vessel that can demonstrate how would be better.

...Find the capital with the highest mana production?
 
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