- Location
- Florida, USA
So, since her brain is hidden from Shard senses. . . she's immune? Won't really help much, but good to know.
Don't. . . don't make that Canon, please, It was supposed to be brain bleach.
It's funny, but, c'mon. It's so crack.
[HALP] me! (WORM quest)
- Thread starter Vhalidictes
- Start date
So, since her brain is hidden from Shard senses. . . she's immune? Won't really help much, but good to know.
Don't. . . don't make that Canon, please, It was supposed to be brain bleach.
It's funny, but, c'mon. It's so crack.
- Location
- New York
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Unfortantley, it's not crack enough to be completely inconcoveable. There is a chance.
We could just make this a running gag. Rune joins up with us and Claire keeps offering to make her a catgirl, totally weirding her out because she doesn't particularly want that. What's the Simurgh think about this idea?
- Location
- US
How do a) Taylor's current capabilities (25% usage, untrained), b) her current potential (25% with training), c) her reactivated capabilities (100% usage, smarter than replacement-QA), and d) her reactivated potential (100% usage, trained) stack up against Alexandria's thinker powers?
I think y'all are lowballing her rating.
I think y'all are lowballing her rating.
- Location
- Russia
I was thinking about seemingly the same thing. What it seems what Taylor "Thinker Power" seems exactly the smae as Alexandria` Thinker Power - the perfect memory and perfect recall and faster speed of thinkung. Mechanics also seems the same. If I remember correctly. Alexandria.exe was moved into inhuman shard. Taylor.exe is also running on inhuman brain.
Strange coincidence.
Uhm, could you elaborate what you mean with the percentual usage and training? To my understanding, Taylor is currently using her full mental capabilities. She can now learn stuff and has incredibly much "memory storage" and can potentially remember millions of years of memories, but that's it.
A Thinker rating, on the other hand, is determined by the kind and amount of information a parahuman can determine via use of their power. No matter how many things Taylor learns and remembers, she still won't pull the stuff a high level Thinker can.
Alexandria's Thinker power, by itself, is not particularly strong. Sure, now that she's trained cold reading people for years, she's become pretty good at it, but her real threat is the combination of her thinker, brute and mover powers. Take all that other stuff away, and a properly trained PRT mook can take her out with a foam sprayer. Alone. That's why her Thinker rating by itself is pretty low. Not like her power saved her in canon, where she royally fucked it up and got killed because she didn't manage to get a proper read on Taylor.
The reason Alexandria's Thinker power deserves a high rating is that she can, just by looking at you, determine what you're going to do next relatively accurately. This, combined with her other powers, makes her extremely hard to fight, resulting in an overall higher rating. Would she only be able to cold read people, said people could still shoot her relatively easily with any normal gun, thereby meaning she's got a far lower Thinker rating without her other powers.
On another note, we don't actually know how intelligent Taylor is relative to Alexandria or others. Like, I'm willing to agree that she can retain information and think easier and faster now (as indicated in her POV after we cleaned up her brain), but how much faster? We just don't know.
Nevertheless, Taylor's Thinker rating as of right now, without any parahuman power, is pretty low because it doesn't allow her to do anything a normal person couldn't learn to do with a bit of time and practice. No matter how many skills she learns or how fast she thinks, she can't outthink an invisible truck Skidmark is using to drive over her. Nor can she think faster than bullets fly. Nor can she think her way through a bunch of mooks with containment foam. Neither can she look at you and guess your credit card number. She can't learn to tell the future or be Sherlock Holmes on crack, like actual high level Thinkers could.
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- Location
- US
@Metoto might be misremembering what we know of Taylor's brain. As I remember, it's currently allocated strangely so her cognitive abilities are limited and she has way too much memory.
The Thinker rating is NOT only about what information the Parahuman can gather. Uber and Victor don't gather shit, their Thinker abilities enhance skill and technique.
You're either overestimating what a properly trained PRT Mook can do, or underestimating what a generalized skill thinker with enhanced cognition can do. There's a big difference between fighting a squad of mooks with containment foam throwers (That's Thinker 4 by the way, not too shabby), and being surrounded by them. In the former case, our Thinker would be using self-built explosives, jamming comms, and engaging them from far beyond the effective range of confoam tanks. In one-on-one melee, she'd still be a far sight than even the best baselines (though limited by strength and mass unless she's taking steroids).
Skidmark in an invisible car is effectively fighting someone with Shaker, Stranger, Mover, Blaster, and Brute powers. Even used incompetently, that's not a situation favorable to anyone. Squealer's low rating doesn't account for tech she hadn't deployed yet, by the way.
A generalized Skill Thinker optimally behaves more like a low-level Tinker with a broad specialty, combined with behavior fitting a low-level combat thinker.
Basically, this power should be in the range of Thinker 4-6 depending on how well it's used. That's ranges from 'one full squad of trained operatives is needed' to 'a typical trained parahuman assisting a full squad of trained operatives'. Alexandria doesn't benefit much because she's a flying brick, but the power itself ranges from slightly below average to slightly above average.
Edit: Just checked, and Taylor's brain is partitioned 75% into storage, 25% into combined thinking/storage. So her cognitive capacity has increased by however much of difference moving the 0-Point Corona and her memories out gives. I'm not too clear on if other parts of her personality are stored in the processing partition, though.
Here's a quote from before we knew about the partitioning:
So I REALLY think we should be looking into this more. My guess is the comparison was to a single instance of us, but having fewer, smarter instances is probably better than having lots of normal instances (I say fewer because I'm assuming we'll have to devote more resources to cooling and energy requirements).
Here's a power proposal based on it:
On an unrelated note, given the similarities between Taylor's personality copy and the encrypted data stored in her brain, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the data contained is Khepri's mind. Consider that a Post-GM Lisa copy was sent to Negotiator. Maybe QA wanted to store her copy of Khepri, so she modified Taylor's brain to fit the data and stuffed in the compressed copy.
The Thinker rating is NOT only about what information the Parahuman can gather. Uber and Victor don't gather shit, their Thinker abilities enhance skill and technique.
You're either overestimating what a properly trained PRT Mook can do, or underestimating what a generalized skill thinker with enhanced cognition can do. There's a big difference between fighting a squad of mooks with containment foam throwers (That's Thinker 4 by the way, not too shabby), and being surrounded by them. In the former case, our Thinker would be using self-built explosives, jamming comms, and engaging them from far beyond the effective range of confoam tanks. In one-on-one melee, she'd still be a far sight than even the best baselines (though limited by strength and mass unless she's taking steroids).
Skidmark in an invisible car is effectively fighting someone with Shaker, Stranger, Mover, Blaster, and Brute powers. Even used incompetently, that's not a situation favorable to anyone. Squealer's low rating doesn't account for tech she hadn't deployed yet, by the way.
A generalized Skill Thinker optimally behaves more like a low-level Tinker with a broad specialty, combined with behavior fitting a low-level combat thinker.
Basically, this power should be in the range of Thinker 4-6 depending on how well it's used. That's ranges from 'one full squad of trained operatives is needed' to 'a typical trained parahuman assisting a full squad of trained operatives'. Alexandria doesn't benefit much because she's a flying brick, but the power itself ranges from slightly below average to slightly above average.
Edit: Just checked, and Taylor's brain is partitioned 75% into storage, 25% into combined thinking/storage. So her cognitive capacity has increased by however much of difference moving the 0-Point Corona and her memories out gives. I'm not too clear on if other parts of her personality are stored in the processing partition, though.
Here's a quote from before we knew about the partitioning:
So I REALLY think we should be looking into this more. My guess is the comparison was to a single instance of us, but having fewer, smarter instances is probably better than having lots of normal instances (I say fewer because I'm assuming we'll have to devote more resources to cooling and energy requirements).
Here's a power proposal based on it:
[Plan Hive]: After researching her brain some more, trigger Taylor with a duplicating Master/Thinker/Trump power that forms a hivemind. She can either make 'unpowered' clones that increase her cognitive capacity and eventually let her run purely analytic Thinker powers, or Trigger the clones with an ability she designs from the library of data we give her (initially contains only Thinker data). Triggered clones trade away the processing power increase to us in exchange for being able to run sensory Thinker and non-Thinker powers.
On an unrelated note, given the similarities between Taylor's personality copy and the encrypted data stored in her brain, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that the data contained is Khepri's mind. Consider that a Post-GM Lisa copy was sent to Negotiator. Maybe QA wanted to store her copy of Khepri, so she modified Taylor's brain to fit the data and stuffed in the compressed copy.
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To be precise, we possibly could try to juice up her brain with more research, but that's not a sure thing. As of right now, she just has a lot of storage coupled with faster and easier thinking.
Nope, their skill and technique are gathered by their power. Like, they don't enhance what they have in any way. Uber's power says he can now sidejump really well, so he can, where a normal person couldn't. To put it in such a way as to classify them precisely, their powers gather information on how to fulfill a given task, they thus gather information limited to specific skills.
Granted, both of our examples don't fit into the typical Thinker mould, but it's still the best way to classify them under the PRT Threat Assessment as they're still gathering information a normal person in their position wouldn't. The only difference here is that this information is restricted to what we're describing as "skills".
Generally though, Thinker Rating IS about what information a parahuman can gather. Contessa's scary as shit because she gathers information on how to fulfill any goal (including killing me), thus deserving a Thinker 12 rating. Tattletale can gather loads of varied information, thus she is a high level Thinker. I mean, what else would the Thinker category describe?
While you are right in that a properly prepared skill thinker could take on a PRT squad, so could any Joe Schmoe that is prepared. Like, literally anyone could read the anarchist cookbook and do any of this stuff. If her power doesn't make her more of a threat than the average person, she doesn't need to be assigned a corresponding rating by the Parahuman Response Team. Throwing stones at people does not give you a blaster rating. Also, yeah, Uber and Victor could both conceivably do what you're describing here, but they don't. Why don't they do this? Because they'd be up to their neck in heroes the moment they did. PRT threat assessment doesn't describe what a given parahuman could possibly do so much as what they've shown themselves willing to do. Would they go and make a point out of killing PRT mooks, the PRT/Protectorate would strike back in force, which neither of them want to provoke. In the first place, both skill thinkers we're using as a comparison for Taylor's possible capabilities (after lots of time for training) are kinda pathetic compared to most parahumans. I mean, Uber's a joke for a reason and Victor's only a real parahuman threat if he's together with Othala. Both of them are heavily dependant on other parahumans (Leet and Othala, respectively) to even matter in fights.
Not at all. A Tinker will, by definition, make technology that is uncommomly effective in their specialty. If our hypothetic skill thinker can make simple explosives out of household chemicals, a Tinker with any kind of applicable specialty could use the same materials to make a hoverboard and just fly away. Tinkers are, after all, bullshit. Now, the difference in regards to our threat ratings is that a tinker is expected to have his tinkertech with him and use it to fight whereas a thinker is expected to use their thinker power, whether to have the right skills to take you on or to know in advance what you're gonna do. Your equipment is typically not factored in, as the threat assessment specifically describes how hard your power is to deal with, not your preparations.
In the first place, the PRT Threat Assessment is not meant to be a guideline on how many mooks to throw at a problem, it is meant as a way for the mooks to know how to deal with a problem. A Thinker Rating of 1 means that the parahuman poses a threat just above human norms. This is literally what we're describing when we talk about Taylor's current abilities. She's likely to be just a little more skilled in any given field and can think slightly faster. There, textbook Thinker 1.
Taylor doesn't actually have any parahuman powers in the first place, so she's not even technically a thinker. We can't exactly compare her to one. Sure, she's technically capable of learning skills, but a professional cook is not a cooking skill focused thinker. Anything she can learn is within normal human limits.
Taylor, as she is right now, is no greater a problem to deal with than any other teenager around. If she decides to spend her time learning how to defeat PRT squads, she can do so. The same could be said for any other teenager. She doesn't even have any actual power and doesn't deserve any ranking above 1 any more than any nut with a few molotov cocktails. Thinker 4-6 is ridiculous. Imagine Armsmaster's face as he's being told some slip of a girl with slightly faster cognitive processes and photographic memory being considered Thinker 4. It makes no sense!
TL;DR If anyone can do it without a power, it doesn't deserve a power rating.
- Location
- Florida, USA
. . .It was QA's personality matrix.
Well, whatever it was, it's gone now, so it doesn't matter.
- Location
- Russia
Wasn't it copied into Shard storage for later research?
Nope, I'm pretty sure we wiped it out completely.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Yep. Well, technically, we actually just removed all the "pointers" with no backup, and let Taylor's memories slowly overwrite what's in there. Either way, barring significant bullshit that data's not coming back.
Oh, wait a second. Didn't we do something with time travel? 'Cause time travel's pretty bullshit. If we really want to we could probably move that data from the past to the present somehow. Then again, no point unless we actually want to take a closer look.
- Location
- US
@Metoto I was describing Alexandria's thinker powers there (which Taylor's abilities don't quite match up with yet), since you sajd that no matter how fast someone thinks or how skilled they are it won't protect them from those things.
Whether someone with that powerset would be a high-level thinker isn't up for debate, we know from Legend's interlude that she has a high Thinker rating. Rereading, I don't think our Taylor currently has that level of cognitive ability (and certainly not the skill), but that's different from whether the power itself deserves a low rating.
The situation with Taylor in Canon was a poor showing because she was misinformed, but WoG is that if Alexandria could have read Taylor properly the whole situation was engineered to be successful. She's not as good at guessing and leaps of inference as Tattletale, but Alexandria doesn't get Thinker headaches and is better at social manipulation.
This is actually probably why the PRT rated her so high. Skill thinkers are dangerous but manageable, as you pointed out. But a social thinker power backed with perfect memory and the ability to obtain hacking skills to get that information? Rating her thinker 5+ allows the PRT to justify plantinh false information, and preventing her from communicating by any means possible.
The hard thing about rating a generalized thinker is that their abilities compound. The psychoanalysis on its own might not be worth a high rating, but in combination with the other tricks they go from 'social thinker' to 'social thinker who might know enough to blackmail someone, can tell if they're lying, and will remember information about them she only saw briefly'.
And then she might be as battlefield competent as Victor, with faster reaction times.
In my mind there are three or four main categories of thinkers: Those with a greater understanding of some limited subject (techniques, skills, timing). Extraction thinkers, who produce information ex nihilo (endbringers are typically immune). Analytic thinkers, who use that information to gain a greater understanding. And application thinkers, who primarily put that information to use in schemes (think Accord). Tattletale and Alexandria manage to straddle multiple categories in a manner that amplifies the threat they pose. Accord and the Clairvoyant are just really good at what they do. And most other Thinkers just have a secondary rating in a single category.
Whether someone with that powerset would be a high-level thinker isn't up for debate, we know from Legend's interlude that she has a high Thinker rating. Rereading, I don't think our Taylor currently has that level of cognitive ability (and certainly not the skill), but that's different from whether the power itself deserves a low rating.
The situation with Taylor in Canon was a poor showing because she was misinformed, but WoG is that if Alexandria could have read Taylor properly the whole situation was engineered to be successful. She's not as good at guessing and leaps of inference as Tattletale, but Alexandria doesn't get Thinker headaches and is better at social manipulation.
This is actually probably why the PRT rated her so high. Skill thinkers are dangerous but manageable, as you pointed out. But a social thinker power backed with perfect memory and the ability to obtain hacking skills to get that information? Rating her thinker 5+ allows the PRT to justify plantinh false information, and preventing her from communicating by any means possible.
The hard thing about rating a generalized thinker is that their abilities compound. The psychoanalysis on its own might not be worth a high rating, but in combination with the other tricks they go from 'social thinker' to 'social thinker who might know enough to blackmail someone, can tell if they're lying, and will remember information about them she only saw briefly'.
And then she might be as battlefield competent as Victor, with faster reaction times.
In my mind there are three or four main categories of thinkers: Those with a greater understanding of some limited subject (techniques, skills, timing). Extraction thinkers, who produce information ex nihilo (endbringers are typically immune). Analytic thinkers, who use that information to gain a greater understanding. And application thinkers, who primarily put that information to use in schemes (think Accord). Tattletale and Alexandria manage to straddle multiple categories in a manner that amplifies the threat they pose. Accord and the Clairvoyant are just really good at what they do. And most other Thinkers just have a secondary rating in a single category.
That's certainly true; Thinkers grow more powerful the broader their power is applicable. Tattletale, for example, is shown time and time again to be a really top tier Thinker simply because she can get information about anything. Social manipulation, guessing passwords, analyzing situations... Lots of interesting ways for her to be useful.
- Location
- Florida, USA
. . .Can we go back to suggesting the crack that is Rune-chan be made canon?
Because I am 100% sure that using Time Travel to save that data is a terrible plan.
Sure it's a terrible plan. That's why we'll absolutely go for it sooner or later. Not like I'm saying we should do it now or anything, but what if we will already have done it?
Like, no seriously, it's a viable way to recover the data and have a closer look at it once we've researched a way to protect us from absolutely anything (and to actually reach back in time).
Also, Rune-chan should totally be a thing. Without making her a catgirl or anything, just her liking manga and anime. I think that would make for an interesting characterization of Sabrina the Teenage Nazi.
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TigerTitian
High Lord of the Antares
- Location
- USA
Hmmm. I don't think so. Perfect recall does not equal perfect understanding or execution.
Actually, Taylor's brain is detectable by other shards they just detect it incorrectly. Which is horrible for us because that means when Victor's shard goes to delete something it'll be deleting where the shard thinks it should be, which isn't where it actually will be. Basically, Victor could potentially delete Taylor completely by accident.
I am positive it isn't Khepri. Khepri would only need to double taylors storage capacity, this is well beyond that. Also, Copying Khepri is worthless as what made her dangerous was her power not her personality.
And I'm glad for that.
See above as to why I think that's a bad idea.
Sure! What breed of cat should Rune be?
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- Location
- Florida, USA
Or, and here's a thought, we could not.
I mean, sure, we've done some stupid things in the past. But nothing as suicidal as using a death flag action to set off another death flag.
- Location
- US
I think Rune-Chan and Time Travel are actually the memetic traps QA left for us. We need to improve our defenses.
- Location
- Florida, USA
Yes, like get defenses outside Memetic ones.
And Time Travel is definitely a hazard, notice how it just appeared one day to tempt everyone into doing something stupid?
Rune-chan, is also a terrible memetic hazard. And one Gino introduced.
And Time Travel is definitely a hazard, notice how it just appeared one day to tempt everyone into doing something stupid?
Rune-chan, is also a terrible memetic hazard. And one Gino introduced.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
This.
There's approximately a 100% chance that the data stored in that brain was QA fucking with us. Hell, it's practically spelled out:
The mystery data was a personality archive.
And the personality archive took up enough memory space to store millions of years of memories.
Gosh, I sure wonder what sort of being had access to Taylor's brain, had the motive and means to do weird shit, and would take up millions of years of memory space to store a copy of their personality.
We spent an omake bonus to thoroughly wipe that data, so no, we are not ever intentionally poking it ever again.
TigerTitian
High Lord of the Antares
- Location
- USA
Perhaps we should consider going into the flag selling business. We've collected a ton of jolly Rogers already. I'm sure we'll get more.
- Location
- Netherlands
Depending on how good Taylor's brain is hidden from powers maybe we can ask The Simurgh later (if we are going to work together with her) to use postcognition to copy it.
