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Green Sun, Black Shadows (CG/Exalted)

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Peanuckle said:
My argument is that the charms don't exist except as useful categories for the players to keep things organized. Why would the Ebon Dragon name his capacity to escape Bloodless Murk Evasion? He just dodges like he always does; the charm is part of his existence and spending essence is to him how burning calories is to us. Would you say that you use "Increasing Myofiber Recruitment Technique" to lift weights, or would you say that you're lifting weights? When we "learn a charm" we're altering our existence to incorporate that bit of the Yozi.

Ultimately, it's a stylistic choice. I'd prefer to read something like "Seeing the knife flung at him, Lelouch melted into shadow and flickered away in a cloud of darkness." rather than "Seeing the knife flung at him, Lelouch activated Bloodless Murk Evasion." It's a more organic description IMO.
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I'm of the opposite opinion, at least partially. Remember, each Charm is an individual, repeatable thing. It makes sense to give them names, in the same way we name cars, or martial arts techniques, or weapons, or tools. Plus, the names are actually an in-universe thing from what I recall- it specifically comes up with Alchemicals, and how they have the Autochthon's original naming scheme for their Excellency Charms. I do agree with you for the most part for the in-text descriptions- there it generally is a lot better to just describe what the Charm does than specifically name it- but when someone is talking about a Charm? Then, it makes sense to use the name.
 
NSMS said:
I'm of the opposite opinion, at least partially. Remember, each Charm is an individual, repeatable thing. It makes sense to give them names, in the same way we name cars, or martial arts techniques, or weapons, or tools. Plus, the names are actually an in-universe thing from what I recall- it specifically comes up with Alchemicals, and how they have the Autochthon's original naming scheme for their Excellency Charms. I do agree with you for the most part for the in-text descriptions- there it generally is a lot better to just describe what the Charm does than specifically name it- but when someone is talking about a Charm? Then, it makes sense to use the name.
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I agree with you at least on this occasion, as it has been already mentioned earlier IC that the Charms (or at least Infernal Charms) have names. And I also think that keeping it at minimal levels in descriptions and dialogue is preferable.
 
NSMS said:
it specifically comes up with Alchemicals, and how they have the Autochthon's original naming scheme for their Excellency Charms.
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Alchemicals are a different case because their charms are physical constructs and are actually not Autocthon's own charms. He hasn't opened his charmset to anyone. Alchies have their own set.

I'd prefer to keep the name out of the story. It feels like stepping beyond the 4th wall, referencing the books where the setting is written rather than some in-universe knowledge.

Alexander89 said:
Don't forget that Lelouch's souls will also need a title, which will go a long way to define them. Look at canon examples to see what I mean.
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By title, you mean like "the Eternal Night of Grace" that Sinnihtáre has? I picked those words out of the list because I imagine that she is an ever-present covering of darkness, yet not malevolent. Rather than blinding people in shadow and causing them to stumble, she shelters from harsh light and blocks the sight of those who would do you harm.

Note: As a convenience, to type á, hold down "alt" and type "0225" on the numpad.
 
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Peanuckle said:
My argument is that the charms don't exist except as useful categories for the players to keep things organized. Why would the Ebon Dragon name his capacity to escape Bloodless Murk Evasion? He just dodges like he always does; the charm is part of his existence and spending essence is to him how burning calories is to us. Would you say that you use "Increasing Myofiber Recruitment Technique" to lift weights, or would you say that you're lifting weights? When we "learn a charm" we're altering our existence to incorporate that bit of the Yozi.

Ultimately, it's a stylistic choice. I'd prefer to read something like "Seeing the knife flung at him, Lelouch melted into shadow and flickered away in a cloud of darkness." rather than "Seeing the knife flung at him, Lelouch activated Bloodless Murk Evasion." It's a more organic description IMO.

As for the "vi Britannia" name, I suppose Lelouch would value it given what has been said, but I don't think his devas would use it. They're of Lelouch, not Britannia. Even then, devas don't really have "family" or "national" names, they just have their own identifier. There is, however, an identifying noun that encompasses all the devas of a given primordial. Those of Adorjan are called Sheridans, those of Gaia are called Kami, etc. So we should come up with a general category for devas of Lelouch.
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You know I think you are looking at this the wrong way, yes to the primordials charms are parts of them, just like we have arms and legs, at the same time, we did name our arms arms and our legs legs beyond also giving names to every single bone, muscle,ligament and joints
The reason charms exist is the same reason we study and categorize our own physiology, and just because every part of you leg has an individual name doesn't mean you describe every single individual twitch for every step you do.
At the end of the day you have to remenber that charms represent some truly complex thing, Bloodless Murk Evasion is not simple a scape method, the reason the Ebon Dragon calls Bloodless Murk Evasion this is simple because it alow him to make a Bloodless Murk Evasion, in the same vein that we name our ability to do kicks kicking, if you wan't to take a more simple aproach to a complex thing this is you right, but try to keep in mind that we are talking about massive eldritch beings possesing very alien perpectives
 
Zaratustra said:
Okay, let me try this again slowly
Procreate : To produce offspring; reproduce.
Now, try to pay attention because this is important, procreation is the act of reproduction, expasion of the species, the act of creating another being like you.
Thus even if demons can reproduce in many ways, no one would ever consider soul bunding a method of reproduction, since you aren't creating another, you are expanding the self, when you soul buds you aren't creating new souls, but evolving ito an entity who posses multiply souls.
They may be kind of like family, but they aren't separate entities, so in the end the children analogy only holds to escrutiny if you wan't to avoid exploring the nuances of the situation in favor of random hijinks, and personaly I believe the latter get old fast
Remenbering now, a good example would be Cytherea, in the beggining she should already have all her third and second circle souls, and yet she need to awake the other primordials sice she didn't wan't to be alone , so once more the biggest problem with the children analogy is how it goes straight against the basic fact that they are a component part of him
Random strange tought: making Green Sun Princes is the only way for the primordial themselfs actualy procreate, which means we realy should drop this analogy before it goes somewhere realy strange
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1. Don't be an asshole.

2. The essential thing you are missing out on here is that the important thing is how Lelouch FEELS about them. You are getting hung up over technicalities regarding procreation, which is entirely the wrong approach. If Lelouch considers these devas to be his children, then they are his children. It doesn't matter if they meet your strict standard of procreation, especially since immortality may one day be in Lelouch's grasp. No, they aren't strictly separate from him, but they have a great degree of independence and have their own thoughts, which will only increase as they define themselves. One outright calls him Papa, and the other recognizes him as her progenitor. Family is not limited to pure blood relations, and even if these souls are part of himself they are still their own persons to enough of an extent that I believe Lelouch will likely come to consider them family as much as they do him.

Zaratustra said:
You know I think you are looking at this the wrong way, yes to the primordials charms are parts of them, just like we have arms and legs, at the same time, we did name our arms arms and our legs legs beyond also giving names to every single bone, muscle,ligament and joints
The reason charms exist is the same reason we study and categorize our own physiology, and just because every part of you leg has an individual name doesn't mean you describe every single individual twitch for every step you do.
At the end of the day you have to remenber that charms represent some truly complex thing, Bloodless Murk Evasion is not simple a scape method, the reason the Ebon Dragon calls Bloodless Murk Evasion this is simple because it alow him to make a Bloodless Murk Evasion, in the same vein that we name our ability to do kicks kicking, if you wan't to take a more simple aproach to a complex thing this is you right, but try to keep in mind that we are talking about massive eldritch beings possesing very alien perpectives
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Yeah, this is absolutely right. It needs to be remembered that the Yozis are made of Charms. They literally ARE their Charms.
 
[X] Name for Muse-chan: Anesidora (Epithet: The Exuberant Genius)
[X] Name for Darkness-chan: Sinnihtáre (Epithet: The Eternal Night of Grace)

Ok, I think simply "Muse" works for Muse-chan, but Lelouch has a flare for the dramatic and the 2CD and 3CD of the Yozis almost all have epithets, so I think he'd see fit to give it to them. Some have suggested "The Joyful Muse" but I think "The Exuberant Genius" is more appropriate, as she's full of energy and liveliness as well as being super intelligent and creative. EDIT - Switched to Pandora, after discussion. I think it fits, in an interesting way. EDIT 2 - Switched to Anesidora, which is a more obscure name for Pandora.

For Darkness-chan, I like Peanuckles suggestion, and her epithet should reflect that she considers Erembour to be her mother. Since Erembour is the Ebon Dragon's Intimacy of Night, Peanuckles suggestion for Epithet is also appropriate.

I'm going to leave out the "vi Britannia" part as on thinking about it I don't think Lelouch has had enough time to give them that name. I think he will in time, but he's still acclimating to the notion that these girls are now part of his family, so it's too soon.


Now, also came up with a plan.

[X] Plan Inside Man

Strategy:
You will use Loom-Snarling Deception in advance (motes from your peripheral pool) to disguise yourself as a security guard, (explaining to the Black Knights you are very good at disguise, using the time to 'set up your disguise' to stop glowing) using the dematerialized Anuhles to navigate your way to the central security room and prevent you from running into anything that might result in undue scrutiny. From there, you will do the following...
- Have the Anuhles kill anyone in the room as quickly and silently as they can. Priority goes to anyone near any kind of panic button.
- Hack the security cameras so that any other security rooms or posts seeing camera feeds won't see anything out of the ordinary.
- Cut off anything that would allow an alert to be sent to outside security forces.
- Send commands as needed to the security forces to move them into ambushes or out of the way of the forces you will have infiltrating, as suits the situation.

Once your forces are in, you'll go after the noble. Be prepared to fight a Dragonblooded, informing your soldiers that there is a chance the noble or someone in his employ has special training and/or advanced technology and that they should be prepared to fall back if needed and notify you in the event of such an encounter. If possible, cut off any escape routes that might lead to the areas that are behind demon wards. You'll inspect those areas after you've secured the primary objectives. If you have to go through the wards to reach the noble, destroy them if you can so the Anuhles can pass through.

Use of Knightmares: You'll have the Knightmares you have at the ready nearby in trucks to be called in if needed. Preferably they will not need to be used if the operation can be kept quiet low key, but they can be called in earlier if needed.

Stunt: "Sir, I have something to report!" you say as you walk in to the villa's central security room, closing the door behind you. "Well then, out with it! What is so damn important you had to come in here and disrupt our coffee break?" the apparent head of security asks. "The villa is under attack by giant spiders!" you exclaim, your voice dead serious. "What!? Don't be absu-" *glomp* he is interrupted as an Anhule materializes, tackling him from out of nowhere and digging its fangs into the man's throat. As the Anuhles swiftly take care of the guards in the room, you head for the main console to begin your assault in earnest.


Criticism and suggestions are welcome as always.
 
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Peanuckle said:
Alchemicals are a different case because their charms are physical constructs and are actually not Autocthon's own charms. He hasn't opened his charmset to anyone. Alchies have their own set.

I'd prefer to keep the name out of the story. It feels like stepping beyond the 4th wall, referencing the books where the setting is written rather than some in-universe knowledge.
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Not what I meant; from what I recall it actually says in the text about the Charms that they're called 'Augmentations' because that's what Auto originally called that type of Charm when he was developing the Exaltations. And I think I remember something in the DB book about one of their Charms (which was to do with Solars) being renamed after the Usurpation?

Edit:
Found it; from the text of the first Alchemical Augmentation:
Augmentations are Excellencies with another name. The term Excellency was not coined until after Autochthon fashioned the Alchemical blueprints, however, so Champions still use his original nomenclature.
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Enjou said:
[X] Name for Muse-chan: Muse (Epithet: The Exuberant Genius)
[X] Name for Darkness-chan: Sinnihtáre (Epithet: The Eternal Night of Grace)

Ok, I think simply "Muse" works for Muse-chan, but Lelouch has a flare for the dramatic and the 2CD and 3CD of the Yozis almost all have epithets, so I think he'd see fit to give it to them. Some have suggested "The Joyful Muse" but I think "The Exuberant Genius" is more appropriate, as she's full of energy and liveliness as well as being super intelligent and creative.

For Darkness-chan, I like Peanuckles suggestion, and her epithet should reflect that she considers Erembour to be her mother. Since Erembour is the Ebon Dragon's Intimacy of Night, Peanuckles suggestion for Epithet is also appropriate.

I'm going to leave out the "vi Britannia" part as on thinking about it I don't think Lelouch has had enough time to give them that name. I think he will in time, but he's still acclimating to the notion that these girls are now part of his family, so it's too soon.


Now, also came up with a plan.

[X] Plan Inside Man

Strategy:
You will use Loom-Snarling Deception in advance (motes from your peripheral pool) to disguise yourself as a security guard, (explaining to the Black Knights you are very good at disguise, using the time to 'set up your disguise' to stop glowing) using the dematerialized Anuhles to navigate your way to the central security room and prevent you from running into anything that might result in undue scrutiny. From there, you will do the following...
- Have the Anuhles kill anyone in the room as quickly and silently as they can.
- Hack the security cameras so that any other security rooms or posts seeing camera feeds won't see anything out of the ordinary.
- Cut off anything that would allow an alert to be sent to outside security forces.
- Send commands as needed to the security forces to move them into ambushes or out of the way of the forces you will have infiltrating, as suits the situation.

Once your forces are in, you'll go after the noble. Be prepared to fight a Dragonblooded. If possible, cut off any escape routes that might lead to the areas that are behind demon wards. You'll inspect those areas after you've secured the primary objectives. If you have to go through the wards to reach the noble, destroy them if you can so the Anuhles can pass through.

Use of Knightmares: You'll have the Knightmares you have at the ready nearby in trucks to be called in if needed. Preferably they will not need to be used if the operation can be kept quiet low key, but they can be called in earlier if needed.

Stunt: "Sir, I have something to report!" you say as you walk in to the villa's central security room, closing the door behind you. "Well then, out with it! What is so damn important you had to come in here and disrupt our coffee break?" the apparent head of security asks. "The villa is under attack by giant spiders!" you exclaim, your voice dead serious. "What!? Don't be absu-" *glomp* he is interrupted as an Anhule materializes, tackling him from out of nowhere and digging its fangs into the man's throat. As the Anuhles swiftly take care of the guards in the room, you head for the main console to begin your assault in earnest.


Criticism and suggestions are welcome as always.
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If it is a db, wouldn't they have some ways of countering intangible foes sneaking around and killing their people?
 
Krain said:
If it is a db, wouldn't they have some ways of countering intangible foes sneaking around and killing their people?
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The part of the mansion with demon wards would keep the demons out, but that's only the most private parts of the mansion (central security isn't likely to be there, as it'd cause too much foot traffic) and the Dragonblooded don't have Charms that are as good to detect dematerialized spirits - remember that we got our info from demons that had been sent to spy on this guy.
 
Enjou said:
[X] Plan Inside Man
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I like it, especially the stunt. My chief concern is that the security room is almost assuredly warded against demons, so we'll have to find some way to break it before calling in the anhules.

As for your name suggestion, I like the epithet but I think Muse is a little plain for a creature that will one day stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Daendals and Ligier.
 
Peanuckle said:
Could we vote on this then? I don't like the "children" interpretation either. I'd rather see them as retainers or cohorts.
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I think this is something that would be better evolved from long term interaction with them rather than a singular vote.

That said, I expect Lelouch's relationship with his devas to be complex. Even if Lelouch views them as his children and grows to have affection for them, that does not mean he won't use them as if they were retainers. Lelouch is royalty, and if they are his children then that means they are royalty too, and as such they have duties that would need to be tended to. Remember that the children of a king are considered to be among the king's retainers.

Peanuckle said:
I like it, especially the stunt. My chief concern is that the security room is almost assuredly warded against demons, so we'll have to find some way to break it before calling in the anhules.
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I would assume this information was part of the information packages we got from the spies. @Alexander89?

As for your name suggestion, I like the epithet but I think Muse is a little plain for a creature that will one day stand shoulder-to-shoulder with Daendals and Ligier.
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Daendals is simply "The Unfettered Heart" and Remondin "The Misconstrued Counselor", so I don't think that's an issue to be honest. "The Exuberant Genius" fits what we intend for her, I think. But I'm open to suggestions.
 
Enjou said:
I think this is something that would be better evolved from long term interaction with them rather than a singular vote.

That said, I expect Lelouch's relationship with his devas to be complex. Even if Lelouch views them as his children and grows to have affection for them, that does not mean he won't use them as if they were retainers. Lelouch is royalty, and if they are his children then that means they are royalty too, and as such they have duties that would need to be tended to. Remember that the children of a king are considered to be among the king's retainers.
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Though on the other hand, he may go the exact opposite route out of a desire to avoid being anything at all like his own father.
 
NSMS said:
Though on the other hand, he may go the exact opposite route out of a desire to avoid being anything at all like his own father.
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Like it has been said before, Lelouch doesn't have much problem with the idea of nobility and royals. What he does have a problem with is corrupt people in positions of power abusing their authority. So its kind of "Hitler used sugar!" -situation to him.
 
NSMS said:
Though on the other hand, he may go the exact opposite route out of a desire to avoid being anything at all like his own father.
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I can't see Lelouch not using them. He views the world through the lens of it being a giant chess board, and these are potential pieces he can use. The essential difference is that Lelouch wouldn't view them as being expendable pieces, but more in the "irreplaceable" category.
 
Enjou said:
1. Don't be an asshole.

2. The essential thing you are missing out on here is that the important thing is how Lelouch FEELS about them. You are getting hung up over technicalities regarding procreation, which is entirely the wrong approach. If Lelouch considers these devas to be his children, then they are his children. It doesn't matter if they meet your strict standard of procreation, especially since immortality may one day be in Lelouch's grasp. No, they aren't strictly separate from him, but they have a great degree of independence and have their own thoughts, which will only increase as they define themselves. One outright calls him Papa, and the other recognizes him as her progenitor. Family is not limited to pure blood relations, and even if these souls are part of himself they are still their own persons to enough of an extent that I believe Lelouch will likely come to consider them family as much as they do him.
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It seens I failed to comunicate and some nuances got lost so alow me to try again
First, I a have absolute nothing against them seeing themselves as family, I feel is a natural away to process their relationship from an human perpective, my problem is with the children analogy, because it takes away from the fact that they are part of him and defines then as a complete diferent kind of entity with a very diferent relationship(Also,"Family is not limited to pure blood relations" ? where the hell did this come from ? the whole problem is that they are infinitely closer to him than even his own blood could ever be). Ijust would prefer if he understood their relathionship as closer than even father and chieldren could ever be, is part personal preference part because of Lelouchs relationship with his own family.
Second, my whole problem with reproduction came when you insinuated that Demons would equate soul buding with reproduction, which fells absurdly wrong, you may wan't to aproach their relationship from a diferent angle, but please don't equate soul buding with reproduction unless you are willing to explain how exactly they could ever be the same thing, it ofends my sensibilitiess in a way, but I will recognize that I may have been a bit rude in my rethoric and for that I am sorry.
Third, and this is only tangentialy relevant, do you realy thinki naming Muse Muse is a good idea ? it just fells that naming the souls who should represent his own creativity something so abviously unimaginative is realy a good idea ? I am currently partial to Thalia, the name of bot one of the nine muses and a daughter of the god of madness
 
Zaratustra said:
Third, and this is only tangentialy relevant, do you realy thinki naming Muse Muse is a good idea ? it just fells that naming the souls who should represent his own creativity something so abviously unimaginative is realy a good idea ? I am currently partial to Thalia, the name of bot one of the nine muses and a daughter of the god of madness
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I'm fine with naming her Muse. She's pretty much going to be THE Muse, a literal source of inspiration to others. It fits her function, and is a suitable name, IMO. That said, if you want something else, vote for it.
 
Peanuckle said:
You don't say that you activated your leg to take a step, you just take a step.
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You don't. :V
Peanuckle said:
Would you say that you use "Increasing Myofiber Recruitment Technique" to lift weights
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...Yes, because that sounds fun.
Enjou said:
she considers Erembour to be her mother.
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Alexander89 said:
Do note she just say "mother's love", without specify who she means with mother.
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If we want to go for full silliness she has two moms, but nobody ever really wants full silliness. :V
 
[X] Name for Muse-chan: Leanan (Epithet: The Exuberant Genius)
[X] Name for Darkness-chan: Sinnihtáre (Epithet: The Eternal Night of Grace)
 
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Zaratustra said:
Random strange tought: making Green Sun Princes is the only way for the primordial themselfs actualy procreate, which means we realy should drop this analogy before it goes somewhere realy strange
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Sorry, it's already gone there.
frozenchicken said:
Y'know, it's funny. Darkness-chan's Maternal Grandfather is the conceptual embodiment of Darkness, Antagonism and Lies. And as Lelouch would note, her Paternal Grandfather is worse.
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Anyway, the point of the conversationabout them being our children is whether they deserved to have the title 'Vi Britannia'. If they are parts of us, then they're even more deserving of the title anyway. That said, they might still choose to have a general 'Lelouch Deva' name, like 'Vi Lelouch'.

Enjou said:
Name for Muse-chan: Muse (Epithet: The Exuberant Genius)
Name for Darkness-chan: Sinnihtáre (Epithet: The Eternal Night of Grace)
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On consideration, I can't say I like just 'Muse' as a name. Or to be more precise, I don't think she herself would like such a name. It's just too Mundane for a primarily Oramaic soul, y'know? So, as much as I think ancient myth references are cool, I think we'd best pick something unique. And possibly with 7 letters, for the sake of thematics.


[X] Name for Muse-chan: Leanan (Epithet: The Exuberant Genius)
[X] Name for Darkness-chan: Sinnihtáre (Epithet: The Eternal Night of Grace)
[X] Plan Inside Man

Strategy:
You will use Loom-Snarling Deception in advance (motes from your peripheral pool) to disguise yourself as a security guard, (explaining to the Black Knights you are very good at disguise, using the time to 'set up your disguise' to stop glowing) using the dematerialized Anuhles to navigate your way to the central security room and prevent you from running into anything that might result in undue scrutiny. From there, you will do the following...
- Have the Anuhles kill anyone in the room as quickly and silently as they can, aiming first for anyone in a position to hit any panic buttons.
- Hack the security cameras so that any other security rooms or posts seeing camera feeds won't see anything out of the ordinary.
- Cut off anything that would allow an alert to be sent to outside security forces.
- Send commands as needed to the security forces to move them into ambushes or out of the way of the forces you will have infiltrating, as suits the situation.

Once your forces are in, you'll go after the noble. Be prepared to fight a Dragonblooded. If possible, cut off any escape routes that might lead to the areas that are behind demon wards. You'll inspect those areas after you've secured the primary objectives. If you have to go through the wards to reach the noble, destroy them if you can so the Anuhles can pass through.

Use of Knightmares: You'll have the Knightmares you have at the ready nearby in trucks to be called in if needed. Preferably they will not need to be used if the operation can be kept quiet and low key, but they can be called in earlier if needed.

Stunt: "Sir, I have something to report!" you say as you walk in to the villa's central security room, closing the door behind you. "Well then, out with it! What is so damn important you had to come in here and disrupt our coffee break?" the apparent head of security asks. "The villa is under attack by giant spiders!" you exclaim, your voice dead serious. "What!? Don't be absu-" *glomp* he is interrupted as an Anhule materializes, tackling him from out of nowhere and digging its fangs into the man's throat. As the Anuhles swiftly take care of the guards in the room, you head for the main console to begin your assault in earnest.



Made a slight adjustment to the first listpoint in the plan. It now reads 'Have the Anuhles kill anyone in the room as quickly and silently as they can, aiming first for anyone in a position to hit any panic buttons.'

Edit: Aelfgifu does seem like a cool-sounding name, but it doesn't seem like it will win..
 
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