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Green Sun, Black Shadows (CG/Exalted)

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Enjou said:
As far as different guns being similar and that the ward should work on any gun, keep in mind that Exalted is a concept based universe - "This categorization of weapon types is metaphysical rather than physical, and the metaphysical is in large part defined by language. (Blame Elloge.)" The metaphysics of the matter state that an assault rifle is sufficiently different from a pistol in terms its concept that the two require different Weapon Wards to block. Think of it like the difference between a sword and a dagger. A sword ward will block a sword but not a dagger, and it really doesn't matter that both are bladed weapons with similar shapes as they are conceptually different enough to the Primordials, the gods, and any other spirits so as to be considered different things metaphysically. Basically, "gun" is considered at the same conceptual level as "bladed weapon", and is too metaphysically vague for a Weapon Ward to work against.
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the problem with this justificative is that it is forced, you are twisting the explanation to adapt to how you would like it to work isntead of how the explanation elucides it of working, it is a conceptual separation which means that it goes largely be feeling, but the own description says to er on the side of alowing it to function, from a gameplay perspective it may make sense to put retrictions to balance since everyone uses guns , but from the actual conceptual perpective it just doesn't fit, do you think a bow ward would diferentiate between a greatbow, shorthbow or crossbow ? or to get more ridiculosly specific, that a crossbow ward would diferetiate between a handcrossbow , repeating crossbow or multishoot crossbow ?
the goddam thing wad obivious designed to work as long as you describe a specific kind of weapon in one word and diferent kinds of guns are still just guns with some modifications , in the same way a javelin is a spear modified to be trow and a kathar was modified to be used in a movement similar to punching at the end of the day all those similary build, similary designed, similary wielded weapons are reconized under the word gun.
 
Zaratustra said:
the problem with this justificative is that it is forced, you are twisting the explanation to adapt to how you would like it to work isntead of how the explanation elucides it of working, it is a conceptual separation which means that it goes largely be feeling, but the own description says to er on the side of alowing it to function, from a gameplay perspective it may make sense to put retrictions to balance since everyone uses guns , but from the actual conceptual perpective it just doesn't fit, do you think a bow ward would diferentiate between a greatbow, shorthbow or crossbow ? or to get more ridiculosly specific, that a crossbow ward would diferetiate between a handcrossbow , repeating crossbow or multishoot crossbow ?
the goddam thing wad obivious designed to work as long as you describe a specific kind of weapon in one word and diferent kinds of guns are still just guns with some modifications , in the same way a javelin is a spear modified to be trow and a kathar was modified to be used in a movement similar to punching at the end of the day all those similary build, similary designed, similary wielded weapons are reconized under the word gun.
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To pare down what Zaratustra is saying, I think, Is that you can't really describe a knife as a tiny sword: There are explicitly knives as large as swords, after all. However, you can call both a pistol and a rifle a gun. Because they are both guns. They are projectile weapons, but they are specifically guns. They are not bows. A man trained to use a gun will pick up other guns relatively easily, but not bows. Because they are different. This completely ignoring the much better argument that this is still Creation, and the word Gun is still conceptually applied to both of them, and the words explicitly say that if you're unsure then it counts. :V

Look, you can't do this. If you don't want Weapon Wards to be a thing, fine, they're overpowered, but please don't try to twist the words around to mean something other than what they say. All it does is cause the people on the internet who can never let somebody be wrong to come out and be annoyed at you. Like right now. :V
 
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chocolote12 said:
All it does is cause the people on the internet who can never let somebody be wrong to come out and be annoyed at you. Like right now. :V
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I resent this you know ? I am perfectly capable of letting people be wrong on the internet as long as then being wrong doesn't actualy affect me. Or at least I try to I am self-concious enought to recognize that I extract a measure of joy from arguing points trought evergrowing strings of words but that is besides the point .
 
[X] Enjou

i have no idea what going on so i will just voted for the guy that seem to know what going on
 
I would like to point out, if weapon ward could be applied to all guns it would be broken as fuck. as is it's merely very powerful rather than extremely broken. thats the real reason it can't be set to work against all guns, game balance trumps fluff in any sane game design(at least with gear the character can easily get). any reworking or reinterpretation of weapons wards fluff to have it work against guns by category will be done to make the fluff better suit the re balanced crunch.



now with that out of the way,

[x] Enjou

the artifact spread looks good, and being able to inspire obsessive devotion through our presence will be useful.
 
Zaratustra said:
the problem with this justificative is that it is forced, you are twisting the explanation to adapt to how you would like it to work isntead of how the explanation elucides it of working, it is a conceptual separation which means that it goes largely be feeling, but the own description says to er on the side of alowing it to function, from a gameplay perspective it may make sense to put retrictions to balance since everyone uses guns , but from the actual conceptual perpective it just doesn't fit, do you think a bow ward would diferentiate between a greatbow, shorthbow or crossbow ? or to get more ridiculosly specific, that a crossbow ward would diferetiate between a handcrossbow , repeating crossbow or multishoot crossbow ?
the goddam thing wad obivious designed to work as long as you describe a specific kind of weapon in one word and diferent kinds of guns are still just guns with some modifications , in the same way a javelin is a spear modified to be trow and a kathar was modified to be used in a movement similar to punching at the end of the day all those similary build, similary designed, similary wielded weapons are reconized under the word gun.
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chocolote12 said:
To pare down what Zaratustra is saying, I think, Is that you can't really describe a knife as a tiny sword: There are explicitly knives as large as swords, after all. However, you can call both a pistol and a rifle a gun. Because they are both guns. They are projectile weapons, but they are specifically guns. They are not bows. A man trained to use a gun will pick up other guns relatively easily, but not bows. Because they are different. This completely ignoring the much better argument that this is still Creation, and the word Gun is still conceptually applied to both of them, and the words explicitly say that if you're unsure then it counts. :V

Look, you can't do this. If you don't want Weapon Wards to be a thing, fine, they're overpowered, but please don't try to twist the words around to mean something other than what they say. All it does is cause the people on the internet who can never let somebody be wrong to come out and be annoyed at you. Like right now. :V
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Ok, look, I think you guys need to get one thing straight - fluff has to be adjusted to balanced game mechanics, not the other way around.

A sword and a gun both fit the definition of the word "weapon", but you can't make a ward against all weapons because that would be unbalanced as fuck. No sane person would think that was a balanced idea for a game.

A sword, an axe, a dagger, many types of spears, etc. all fit the definition of "edged weapon". Hell, they all fit the definition of "melee weapon" as well. A ward against either of those would would still be broken as fuck. So you divide them into further categories.

Pretty much everyone reasonable agrees that Arrow Wards are overpowered in the default Exalted setting, given that the Ability that uses them is called Archery and there are very few other weapons that are used in that Ability category that are all that good. So yeah, in reasonable games they don't get allowed. A Bow Ward would be the same thing though, so YES, bow types would be subdivided. Probably into long bow, short bow, and crossbow. You divide into further categories if necessary for game balance.

In this setting there are so many different types of guns and they are the primary weapon most people use. So yes, for the sake of game balance it becomes necessary to divide up the different types of guns. After all, even if they both meet the definition of "gun", people still do recognize a difference between a "pistol" and a "rifle". The GM has ruled that guns get divided into six categories for the purpose of Weapon Wards. Don't like it? Tough. The explanation I gave is forced because it has to be. You can complain about the semantics of fictional metaphysics all you like, but the fluff still has to bend to game mechanics first and foremost.


random_npc said:
the artifact spread looks good, and being able to inspire obsessive devotion through our presence will be useful.
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random_npc said:
ok that is a horrifyingly good point. maybe find some way to trun it on and off?
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Beautiful In My Way only inspires rapt fascination, not obsession. Dual Gaze Paradox is what makes people obsessed. They're not the same thing.
 
chocolote12 said:
But yooooouuu're noooooot fixiiiiiing the fluuuuuuff! *Whines worse than Skywalker*
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yes he is. the metaphysical divide between the different types of guns has enough weight behind it weapon ward has to go by type. the same way it can't key to "blade" or "blunt". you could make a full argument for or against the above point, but in the absence of a detailed enough metaphysical framework for a concrete answer you go with the interpretation that leaves the thing usable.

if you still think the divide makes no sense, chalk it up to the increased lobbying to metaphysically differentiate types of guns done by the various gods of firearms as a move they did hundreds of years ago as a play against the gods of blades attempt to pigeon hole firearms.
 
random_npc said:
if you still think the divide makes no sense, chalk it up to the increased lobbying to metaphysically differentiate types of guns done by the various gods of firearms as a move they did hundreds of years ago as a play against the gods of blades attempt to pigeon hole firearms.
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...Okay. Now I'm fine. Everything makes sense again. :V
 
exalted is one of those weird setting where political maneuvers can indeed shape the nature of reality. huh, that may actually explain why so many guns in code geass use something other than gunpowder, the gods of chemistry and alchemy had a falling out with the gods of firearms.
 
random_npc said:
exalted is one of those weird setting where political maneuvers can indeed shape the nature of reality. huh, that may actually explain why so many guns in code geass use something other than gunpowder, the gods of chemistry and alchemy had a falling out with the gods of firearms.
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....this makes so much sense....would explain a lot of anime settings and why they work.
 
an artifact that lets us toggle it might be useful. its easier to keep something like a ring on than sunglasses after all. Also it's a bit of future proofing, since when we hit essence 5 the charm makes our eyes glow.
 
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@Enjou, why exactly are you going for a Hellcaster over the revolver equivalent Six-Heart Stormspitter? Not that it isn't a valid choice, I just want to understand your reasoning, especially since your vote is being bandwagoned.

The Hellcaster has slightly higher damage (8L/s vs 6L/s), range (50m vs 40m) and ammo (15 in a magazine vs 12 single bullets across two Stormspitters) but compare that against a pair of Stormspitters (Alexander ruled they counted as a single artifact) which have a slightly lower attunement cost and provide easy access to on-demand magical ammo when needed and negates any off-hand penalties if we really need to shoot two things at once. Admittedly, we are currently lacking in specifics on available ammo types, but that can be fairly easily fixed and it is far easier to change a single bullet in a revolver than a magazine in an automatic pistol.

Plus a standard size revolver is much easier to hide than a gun explicitly bigger than a Desert Eagle at the smallest.
 
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