Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Basically everything a path can do can be done better by a charm. The whole point of paths is they do one thing, and are for mortals, with mortal level of power. Charms are for exalted and have exalted level of powers.
I would like to point out that this? Is explicitly untrue.

There is no effect in the Infernal charmset that can bring people back to life the way maxed out Healing can.
None that can outright make people into independent supernaturals like maxed Alchemy can.
Nothing that can mediate remote surveillance like Divination/Scrying can.
Nothing that does strategic scale teleportation like Conveyance can.
Nothing that can ward an area against intrusion by people, spirits, ghosts and enemy magic constructs like Summoning can.

This isnt Ex2. And we arent an ExWoD Solar.
Charms have fiat backing in their areas of focus, but there are things that are not in-theme for Infernal charms which you have to go out of the charmset for. Especially with Ex2 demons no longer being a thing.

We literally have no ability to make or maintain basic wards, which means when we arent home, anyone can choose to walk through our house and attempt to loot it to the floorboards or to plant bugs or bombs. Not a big concern when we live with our family, but a much bigger issue if we want to move out at any given time.

Thats a critical capability that nothing in the Infernal charmset or ancient Sorcery can help with.
Just ask Dresden how many times hostiles have tried to break into his home with him there or absent. He would have lost Bob ages ago if not for his ability to lock his door and keep it locked.
 
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I would like to point out that this? Is explicitly untrue.

There is no effect in the Infernal charmset that can bring people back to life the way maxed out Healing can.
None that can outright make people into independent supernaturals like maxed Alchemy can.
Nothing that can mediate remote surveillance like Divination/Scrying can.
Nothing that does strategic scale teleportation like Conveyance can.
Nothing that can ward an area against intrusion by people, spirits, ghosts and enemy magic constructs like Summoning can.

This isnt Ex2. And we arent an ExWoD Solar.
Charms have fiat backing in their areas of focus, but there are things that are not in-theme for Infernal charms which you have to go out of the charmset for. Especially with Ex2 demons no longer being a thing.

We literally have no ability to make or maintain basic wards, which means when we arent home, anyone can choose to walk through our house and attempt to loot it to the floorboards or to plant bugs or bombs. Not a big concern when we live with our family, but a much bigger issue if we want to move out at any given time.

Thats a critical capability that nothing in the Infernal charmset or ancient Sorcery can help with.
Just ask Dresden how many times hostiles have tried to break into his home with him there or absent. He would have lost Bob ages ago if not for his ability to lock his door and keep it locked.
Basically, infernals don't get native magical effects to make things outright better. If their charms improve the situation, there's always a catch. If we want to help our loved ones and improve their lives, no strings and inconveniences attached, we have to branch out into magic.
 
Once we get our kingdom, we'll have plenty of diabolic beings religiously obligated to teach us ancient and profound secrets of magic.
Odin/Donar Vadderung was allegedly responsible for teaching Merlin magic in this universe. We know that the Leanansidhe took over training Molly in magic and other things when Dresden was incapacitated after Changes. That Elaine learned most of her magic under the tutelage of the Summer Court after fleeing the fight between Dresden and DuMorne.

Bob is Dresden's Alchemy tutor, and taught Butters enough Alchemy to make combat relevant potions like mind fog in Skin Game.

Tutors are not rare in the Dresdenfiles if you have stuff to trade, or are a very good bargainer.
And we have charms for that.
We arent short of potential magic tutors if we want them.
Hey hey hey.I'm feeling a little bit called out here. Don't knock it until you've tried it.
Also
[x] Uju32
I stopped trying to convince people of the merits of pineapple on pizza when I realized it meant more for me
:V
 
He did say that gm and players can adapt other spells, as long as it stays on the same general power level.
That would be homebrew, once again. For a singular specific effect, too. Half the reason why I find Linear magic compare favorably to ancient sorcery is that paths like Fortune or crafting Paths allow many effects for 15XP, instead of one singular effect.
There is no effect in the Infernal charmset that can bring people back to life the way maxed out Healing can.
Frankly, mechanical and thematic space for a lot of this exists. Custom charms could be made for all of this, no problem. Lanka/Burrowing Maggots for home protection, Key and Kingdom/Kakuri/Flayed Alive derivates for transportation, there is space for all that. Charms for this wouldn't be gross excess of late 2ED, this is limitations of Holden being One Guy who is pretty open about "yeah feel free to homebrew more stuff." Nothing on the list is "Too much", nothing something that a theoretical 3-4-5 Dot infernal charm couldn't accomplish.

But we have an embargo on custom charms and I don't know when we are going to be allowed custom charms. Moreso, hypothetical homebrew charms don't exist; they aren't written down, there are no mechanics, no anything. I can't plan for something that doesn't exist, I can't seriously propose "To solve issues X, Y and Z lets get a charm that doesn't exist and isn't allowed at the next xp spending point."

Linear magic does exist, though, and it is good. It got fun synergies with like, one thing Infernals got going in comparison to their alleged Solaroid peers, a claim I am perpetually doubtful of in this iteration of the system. And in ExWoD everything stacks, so if/when floodgates on custom charms open, it'll all work together just fine. If a charm gives +auto sux on bureacracy project, that's grand - it isn't going to disrupt nine levels of Fortune effects on the same project.


Basically, infernals don't get native magical effects to make things outright better. If their charms improve the situation, there's always a catch. If we want to help our loved ones and improve their lives, no strings and inconveniences attached, we have to branch out into magic.
Granted, often enough we can mitigate the hell out of the catch. That got limits, tho.

EDITED - a part of the post was eaten, and things prolly looked a little weird for a bit, especially part about things not existing. Fixed now.
 
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We lost access to normal mana when we exalted. We manipulate essence now. Which is far more potent, but the minimum unit is one mote, which is... Well, it's a gross overkill for a lot of stuff, and if we were to use it for anything like mortal sorcery... Well, I expect that almost all but the greatest rituals would cost one mote and 90 (if not 99,9) % of the energy would be wasted. Mana manipulation would be us regaining the ability to manipulate mana, I think.
They actually have an Essence-to-various energies conversion chart in the book. One Essence is equivalent to:
Essence Lending Method said:
Blood Points Not valid
Rage Not valid
Gnosis 2
Quintessence 1
Pathos 1
Spite Not valid
Glamour 2
Conviction 2
Sekhem 3
Faith 3
Chi 3
At least for Solars, Liminals have a different chart. Somewhat annoyingly, mana isn't on here, but I think it's related to Quintessence? (Not that familiar with WoD)
As far as minimal investment/maximum impact goes, Healing 1 fully substitutes for Nightmare Fugue Vigilance without nasty side-effects.
In fairness the EvWoD version of NFV doesn't have any side-effects either, so long as you have another source of Willpower.
 
...Somewhat annoyingly, mana isn't on here, but I think it's related to Quintessence? (Not that familiar with WoD)..

In fairness the EvWoD version of NFV doesn't have any side-effects either, so long as you have another source of Willpower.
Mana is just quintessence, yes. Interesting chart.

NFV doesn't have any mechanical issues, but it got narrative issues and people expressed concerns.
 
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Been thinking at the splintered gale incarnation, VEE combo and it is good, as knowledge is absorbed, we could use clones, and VEE to max out all knowledge abilities. With every 11 motes turning into a new dot for Molly. Letting: Academics, Computer, Finance, Investigation, Law, medicine, Politics, Science, and Technology, can all jump to 5 dots, 53 dots, for the low price of 583 motes, 5 to make the clone, 5 for the wish, and 1 to absorb the clone and its new knowledge. 201xp value for 40xp and some time.
 
NFV doesn't have any mechanical issues, but it got narrative issues and people expressed concerns.
Yeah I was involved in those discussions, no one was able to explain to my satisfaction what those issues were. If it was like the original NFV and made it difficult to tell whether you were awake or dreaming that would be one thing, but the EvWoD version doesn't have that, it just gives you nightmares when you do sleep.

Which we literally voted to do in character creation for more XP anyway. IMO if you just use Qiao of the Meng to regain willpower and never sleep that's the same as having no downsides. I fundamentally just don't understand why anyone would want to sleep if they didn't have to.
 
Yeah I was involved in those discussions, no one was able to explain to my satisfaction what those issues were.
Perpetual nightmares are bad, and perpetual nightmares bubbling somewhere in your subconscious is also not great. It is primary a concern of charms-are-a-part-of-you thing, with people fearing extrapolated consequences of doing that sort of stuff to your mind.

As far as I understand the thrust.

BTW, Sorcerer books seriously mention that you could buy Qiao as sorcerous paths, which is lol. Not actually good mechanically for us, but lol.
 
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Frankly, mechanical and thematic space for a lot of this exists. Custom charms could be made for all of this, no problem. Lanka/Burrowing Maggots for home protection, Key and Kingdom/Kakuri/Flayed Alive derivates for transportation, there is space for all that. Charms for this wouldn't be gross excess of late 2ED, this is limitations of Holden being One Guy who is pretty open about "yeah feel free to homebrew more stuff." Nothing on the list is "Too much", nothing something that a theoretical 3-4-5 Dot infernal charm couldn't accomplish.

But we have an embargo on custom charms and I don't know when we are going to be allowed custom charms. Moreso, hypothetical homebrew charms don't exist; they aren't written down, there are no mechanics, no anything. I can't plan for something that doesn't exist, I can't seriously propose "To solve issues X, Y and Z lets get a charm that doesn't exist and isn't allowed at the next xp spending point."

Linear magic does exist, though, and it is good. It got fun synergies with like, one thing Infernals got going in comparison to their alleged Solaroid peers, a claim I am perpetually doubtful of in this iteration of the system. And in ExWoD everything stacks, so if/when floodgates on custom charms open, it'll all work together just fine. If a charm gives +auto sux on bureacracy project, that's grand - it isn't going to disrupt nine levels of Fortune effects on the same project.
Point of correction:
Canon Exalted doesnt have thematic space for some of those things, like resurrection or strategic teleportation or even most blessings. They didnt even allow flight as an organic part of the charmset; you needed artifacts or summons or spells.

And in Ex2, most of those effects, like home security and transportation, were largely the province of things like Thaumaturgy and Sorcery/Elemental and Demon Summoning. Maybe Crafting as well.
But generally they required effects from outside your charmset.

You bound elementals and demons to guard your home, or you built it with magic in the very structure.
You used sorcery to fly or built an artifact. You used sorcery to teleport long distances, or you built a network of stargates.
You got a god to bless people, you didnt do it yourself. Healing for most non-Solar splats was easier with a stomach bug.

Exalted had very deliberate holes in their skillsets. Some splats more than others.
 
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I wasn't going off from position of "It was allowed in 2E" - It is allowed in ExWoD, where a Celestial Exalt splat has a charm that resurrects people, Solars trump Defense Primacy, and Exalts are allowed to craft time machines. For every excess of 2E, ExWoD got its own weird asf idiosyncrasies, and I try to be aware of them.

Intentional holes and what is and isn't appropriate for Exalted charms in generals and Infernal charms in particular is a longer discussion that I am not really feeling up to, given that there isn't actually any consequences it either way. We are not allowed custom charms. I guess I am sorry I started that, that post kinda got away from me.
 
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None that can outright make people into independent supernaturals like maxed Alchemy can.
Sorta kinda? I mean, it's a far longer process, and an inferior one, but latter day implants on mortal turn them into a bakemono, and the logic of the charm goes that it's a bakemono without mutations (otherwise, the charm is outright unusable for healing of mortals at all, which isn't how it's fluffed). Then there's your kingdom, and those that escape it should, in principle, become hungry dead.
Nothing that can mediate remote surveillance like Divination/Scrying can.
Night Swallows Secrets. When the Tigers Broke Free.
Nothing that does strategic scale teleportation like Conveyance can.
Possibly rendered Villain Dispersal depending on how dispersing into large bodies of liquid and reincorporating work.
 
Intentional holes and what is and isn't appropriate for Exalted charms in generals and Infernal charms in particular is a longer discussion that I am not really feeling up to, given that there isn't actually any consequences it either way. We are not allowed custom charms. I guess I am sorry I started that, that post kinda got away from me.
No problem.
I can be something of a pedant sometimes.
Sorta kinda? I mean, it's a far longer process, and an inferior one, but latter day implants on mortal turn them into a bakemono, and the logic of the charm goes that it's a bakemono without mutations (otherwise, the charm is outright unusable for healing of mortals at all, which isn't how it's fluffed). Then there's your kingdom, and those that escape it should, in principle, become hungry dead.
Key word: Independent.
Infernal charms are optimized for creating minions and servitors. Alchemy can make people who owe you no allegiance.
So can Solars actually.

Night Swallows Secrets. When the Tigers Broke Free.
Neither of which mediates(ie can be used for) remote surveillance.
When the Tigers Broke Free prevents people from getting into your combat theater. It doesnt prevent them watching from outside or in the air. Night Swallows Secrets prevents people talking about what you did.

Possibly rendered Villain Dispersal depending on how dispersing into large bodies of liquid and reincorporating work.
Maybe depending on QM interpretation.
But that doesnt mean its instant/near instant, like teleportation is classically understood to be. It doesnt allow you to take people with you either, like Conveyance can.

And if your destination is somewhere without a coastline, you're shit out of luck.
 
Sorta kinda? I mean, it's a far longer process, and an inferior one, but latter day implants on mortal turn them into a bakemono, and the logic of the charm goes that it's a bakemono without mutations (otherwise, the charm is outright unusable for healing of mortals at all, which isn't how it's fluffed)

It heals people, but also makes them dependent on something like Mercy in Servitude not to suffer a taint in return for the power.

That might manifest as having to consume anti-rejection drugs or do something unpleasant to keep the cyber devil that animates the implants happy, without the Infernal's intervention, or cyber-psychosis from a cyberpunk game, or something else in theme for the wicked city.

The charm heals the injured mortal, but it comes at a big cost which makes it easy for the infernal to recruit them, which is the charm working as intended.

The point of the charm isn't 'heal mortals' like a solar charm would be. It's 'offer mortals a Faustian bargain where they sell themselves to the infernal in return for healing'. The bakemono taints aren't a bug, they're a feature.
 
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When the Tigers Broke Free prevents people from getting into your combat theater. It doesnt prevent them watching from outside or in the air. Night Swallows Secrets prevents people talking about what you did.
It might actually?

I think the Charm breaks all connections to your area, including satellite or such, but I am on the phone and can't look at the exact wording right now.
 
It might actually?

I think the Charm breaks all connections to your area, including satellite or such, but I am on the phone and can't look at the exact wording right now.

When the Tigers Broke Free
The Infernal tightens all of her muscles to the screaming point, forcing space around her to contract until it cracks and shatters in a perfect ring, fragmenting the logic of urban geography into a confusion of recursive lanes, impossible intersections, broken bridges, dead-end streets, and bottomless chasms.

System: The Infernal spends a turn concentrating her will, spends 2 Essence, and rolls Charisma + Streetwise against difficulty 7. Success breaks the landscape in a ring encircling her present location: all roads, paths, and other routes leading away from the Infernal terminate precisely half a mile from where she stands at the time of the Charm's activation. Everyone outside the range of the Charm's effects simply becomes lost if they try to enter into its boundaries; they take wrong turns, end up on streets they shouldn't be on, and are otherwise endlessly routed around the area. Seen from the air, the affected area seems normal, but attempts to fly in (such as via helicopter) inevitably end with the intruders mistakenly landing somewhere outside of the forbidden zone. No sounds or signs of distress can be detected by those outside of the Charm's boundaries, even if the entire area within is vigorously burning down. Those caught within the Charm's range find that its borders are marked by impassable obstacles: streets that bend back on themselves, impassable walls of rubble, infinitely deep chasms beneath shattered bridges. This Charm's effects persist for a number of hours equal to the successes on is activation roll. It may only be activated within a city or similar area developed for habitation.
 
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When the Tigers Broke Free prevents people from getting into your combat theater. It doesnt prevent them watching from outside or in the air.
That's wrong:
Seen from the air, the affected area
seems normal, but attempts to fly in (such as via helicopter)
inevitably end with the intruders mistakenly
landing somewhere outside of the forbidden zone. No
sounds or signs of distress can be detected by those

outside of the Charm's boundaries, even if the entire
area within is vigorously burning down.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 3, 2022 at 9:11 AM, finished with 113 posts and 8 votes.

  • [X] Close up for the night
    -[X]Thank Rose. Promise to talk to Dresden by phone next day. Admit to being in Cleveland for the next few weeks with family and if theres any contacts in the Cleveland area she would recommend
    -[X]Send a DM(devil message) to Mouse via Burny(Clippy to Burny) to give Dresden and Bob a name and description of the Pathfinders and request any information they can provide on them and Don Phillipe de Leon. Plus any supernatural contact in Cleveland Dresden would recommend.
    -[X]Research: Cyberdevils (while Molly is asleep. 8 hours.)
    --[X]Check for Finnish-American ancestry among list of Soul's Rest residents and staff, and Dreamless Rest subjects. 4 hours.
    --[X]Look for any recent resident deaths, staff hirings or firings at Souls Rest and their contact info; we already got access to their computer system. 2 hours
    --[X]Look for signs of Red Court infiltration of the Cleveland PD. Start with Le Blanc's phone, emails and call/contact history; we have phone access. 2 hours.
    -[X]Write in suggestions for what to do tomorrow (Optional):
    --[X]Check burner email
    --[X]Phone calls and/or visit to family or grave of any recently dead resident for Lydia to take a look.
    --[X]Tour of the facility as friends doing a favor for a Finnish-American family.
    --[X]Track down any Soul's staff that recently quit or were fired.
    --[X]Look for the local supernatural hangouts
 
Arc 3 Post 12: Among the Dead Anew
Among the Dead Anew

24st of July 2006 A.D.

After assuring the nice lady again that you will not mess with the 'soul-flaying serial killers' and promising to call 'Warden Dresden' you ask her if she knows anyone in Cleveland. Rose of Autumn does not, though she does say to keep in touch and implies that she would be willing to meet with you when you get home from the family trip.

"She does not wish to give you her name while you are yet in this city lest these foolish 'Patchfinders' consume the mortal whose guise you took on my lady," Usum points out clinically.

"Which is just common sense," you point out, a little annoyed that a demon would impugn someone's character on the basis of putting their own safety before a stranger.

"I never said that it did not my lady, only pointing it out if your eye had slipped from the matter to grander things."

The last thing you do before going to bed is ask Clippy to send Burny a message asking for whatever information Harry can get on the Pathfinders, as well as set some tasks for the network to handle while you sleep.

***​

25st of July 2006 A.D.

Though you toss and turn in the unfamiliar bed enough that the sheets end up on the floor instead of on you whatever dreams had troubled your sleep are left behind in the shadows that spawned them as Clippy gives her report. Unsurprisingly your assistants had found a statistically significant number of Finnish American names among the residents at Soul's Rest and they had even managed to cross-match eight of those people, five women and three men as recipients of Dreamless Sleep. There could be many more of them since you do not have the full name of people who took the stuff and suffered no ill effects, just names which had coincidentally made it into articles of the day.

1 Essence Gained -> Now at 12/12

They did not manage to dig up anything significant on the cops, but that had been a longshot with no access to their internal network and the vampires trying to be at least a little subtle this close to Chicago and one of the White Council's more... incendiary members. Whatever contact the Blood Packs have with the Cleveland it is way above Le Blanc's pay-grade apparently, nothing about how to call for clean up on there. then again he hardly uses his email at all and his inbox is full of spam, Clippy announces, with an accusatory tone to her synthesized voice. As you are going down to breakfast she chines in with a last minute update on unusual activity at Soul's Rest. You had told them to focus on hirings, firings, deaths... so they had almost missed the element hiding in plain sight.

On the 19th of July the head of the facility registered a complaint about speedboat races and parties on the lake. Input from law enforcement was nil, yet fortuitous misfortune was achieved, the next stage of the 'Eerie 2006 Turbofest' was postponed following the death of one of the semifinalists to an apparent stroke. Estimated probability of natural causes: low.


"So..." you carefully sip your morning coffee. "Either the evil cultists are really not down for 'those damn kids' on their watery lawn or that guy knew something or saw something he shouldn't have."

"And if he saw something than you can see it too, like yesterday," Lydia finishes.

So you find yourself back among the headstones in the shadow of stone angels, looking now upon a much more recent grave, the ground still looks freshly turned over. The trouble now is what to ask for the wider you make the question the shallower the answer.

What do you ask?

[] What did you see at Soul's Rest? (If cogent will provide a detailed vision)

[] Why were you killed (Will give a shorter less detailed answer, but will only return a null result if the boat driver actually died of natural causes)

[] Write in


OOC: I kind of struggled with this one, a part of me just wanted to roll Wits+Investigation to see if you asked a good question but that just felt like taking away player agency when talking about limited resources like Crown Questions. This is the only question you got for the speedboat race discovery so better a shorter update with a vote at the end I decided eventually than one bad roll killing the lead.
 
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Still, doesn't seem like useful for protecting your home, or temporarily hiding what you're doing while not bringing attention to it.

Seems like it's meant to hide large battles, and prevent outside interference.
 
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