Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] Yes, you are sure she will be helpful and you like her company
-[X] Check on Daedalus to see what they know of what happened, and if they're likely to mess with Lydia
 
in fairness in many ways the darkhallow is as good if not better then normal exalted in a lot of ways at least in sheer power. Depending on how much you kill sure you'll be more limited and lack some of the things exalted have. Its still in pure power better than we're likely to ever get in quest. we might be essence 5 if we reach 2 million words which will take a long time since less updates then song without a hilt. I doubt we'll have gone past that even then.
That's a really difficult claim to back up. All we know is that it makes you strong enough that Mab would prefer not to fight you. Which is a big deal, but Mab tries to solve her problems without needing to personally punch them out whenever she can anyway, so it's not the end all be all power threshold.

My bet is that it'd result in a lot of power, but it'd be shallow. Their effects would be good and have a lot of energy to work with, but perfect effects would be thin on the ground and difficult to spam the way exalts can.

I'd also expect that they'd have different issues with different types of exalted. I could see a Dawn struggling in that situation, but a twilight caste with time to plan being a huge problem for them.

An essence 5 infernal with a sufficiently powerful world-soul to draw on would be a problem as well. Death god or not a hostile extradimensional realm of monsters is no joke.

So it's all about context, who knows what, when they know it, and who maneuvers better.

Or at least that's how I see it.
Quotes from E2 Autochtonia book:
Kemmler was good. Very good. He didn't run Darkhallow on himself, and he didn't have access to many gods to catalyze exigents. He didn't have opportunities, I feel.

Basically, what I am saying is that it wouldn't surprise me if the knowledge he passed onto Arawn was something from the first age, or at least related. We'll see, I guess - it's not like we are done with Thule Society.
That's interesting, but I still have doubts. If he could craft god weapons then he wouldn't have gone down like he did. Reverse engineering is harder than TV makes it look for mundane subjects. Reverse engineering the work of a primordial forge god using the post apocalyptic scraps of his second hand work should be way harder.

Going from reverse engineering scraps of a physical process into making a spiritual one like the other exalts that can be made with available materials by any decently competent necromancer should be harder than that again.

It's the supernatural equivalent of figuring out modern ICBMs and their nuclear payloads from the remains of a silo that fired its nuke and was hit with at least one retaliatory strike.

The abyssal and solar exaltations should have ripped their way out of the vault to duel for the right to bond with him.

Not everything needs to be exalted bullshit.
Same, basically.

I believe it was mentioned that he literally never fails a shot, so that would propably be either a Charm or a specific bonus from Legendary Attribute (Dexterity).
The rest is just possible superhuman skill, some longevity and good healing, like any Dragontouched or Mage can take as an
I think that rep shouldn't be taken literally.

I wouldn't give him a perfect effect but I'd build him with maxed out legendary dexterity, 5 dots in firearms, and an attribute only excellency that applies to dex.

So he'd roll something like 17 dice at full blast even if he's using the shittiest pistol on the planet.

I'd also give him 5 perception because he should be a really gun heavy build with time to flesh it out. Not too many other maxed skills because of that, but a hefty number of 3s on things related to modern weapons systems and technology.

So sniping with a scope and time to aim would put him at 22 dice, assuming he has no other fancy equipment to help.

Technically he can miss, but with a pool like that he might as well be infallible with a gun as far as most observers are concerned.

He also has a history of using special ammo when he can; so for added fun he's probably doing material based agg damage to vampires, fey, and the undead if he has time to prepare for them.
 
That's a really difficult claim to back up. All we know is that it makes you strong enough that Mab would prefer not to fight you. Which is a big deal, but Mab tries to solve her problems without needing to personally punch them out whenever she can anyway, so it's not the end all be all power threshold.

My bet is that it'd result in a lot of power, but it'd be shallow. Their effects would be good and have a lot of energy to work with, but perfect effects would be thin on the ground and difficult to spam the way exalts can.

I'd also expect that they'd have different issues with different types of exalted. I could see a Dawn struggling in that situation, but a twilight caste with time to plan being a huge problem for them.

An essence 5 infernal with a sufficiently powerful world-soul to draw on would be a problem as well. Death god or not a hostile extradimensional realm of monsters is no joke.

So it's all about context, who knows what, when they know it, and who maneuvers better.

Or at least that's how I see it.

That's interesting, but I still have doubts. If he could craft god weapons then he wouldn't have gone down like he did. Reverse engineering is harder than TV makes it look for mundane subjects. Reverse engineering the work of a primordial forge god using the post apocalyptic scraps of his second hand work should be way harder.

Going from reverse engineering scraps of a physical process into making a spiritual one like the other exalts that can be made with available materials by any decently competent necromancer should be harder than that again.

It's the supernatural equivalent of figuring out modern ICBMs and their nuclear payloads from the remains of a silo that fired its nuke and was hit with at least one retaliatory strike.

The abyssal and solar exaltations should have ripped their way out of the vault to duel for the right to bond with him.

Not everything needs to be exalted bullshit.

I think that rep shouldn't be taken literally.

I wouldn't give him a perfect effect but I'd build him with maxed out legendary dexterity, 5 dots in firearms, and an attribute only excellency that applies to dex.

So he'd roll something like 17 dice at full blast even if he's using the shittiest pistol on the planet.

I'd also give him 5 perception because he should be a really gun heavy build with time to flesh it out. Not too many other maxed skills because of that, but a hefty number of 3s on things related to modern weapons systems and technology.

So sniping with a scope and time to aim would put him at 22 dice, assuming he has no other fancy equipment to help.

Technically he can miss, but with a pool like that he might as well be infallible with a gun as far as most observers are concerned.

He also has a history of using special ammo when he can; so for added fun he's probably doing material based agg damage to vampires, fey, and the undead if he has time to prepare for them.
word of jim the darkhallow is similar if not the same to what made the winter court essentially. also in sheer dakka we aren't gonna equal mab ever in quest as far as I know.
 
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I think that rep shouldn't be taken literally.

I wouldn't give him a perfect effect but I'd build him with maxed out legendary dexterity, 5 dots in firearms, and an attribute only excellency that applies to dex.

So he'd roll something like 17 dice at full blast even if he's using the shittiest pistol on the planet.
Legendary Attribute can add special features.
Making him not loose successess from Nat. 1s would be one option.
He is not only far less likely to fail any shot, but also can't botch.
 
word of jim the darkhallow is similar if not the same to what made the winter court essentially. also in sheer dakka we aren't gonna equal mab ever in quest as far as I know.
Similar; but it made the user someone in Mab's peer group, not her equal. Remember the WoJ on the Erlking; not everyone in Muhammad Ali's weight class is as good a boxer as he was.

She wouldn't want to fight the Erlking, but there's a reason she's the fey superpower and he's just a state on her border.

I wasn't suggesting we could out muscle Mab necessarily, but that if the cornerstone of the infernal's build path lives up to the hype that someone in the league we're talking about could be threatened by a well built infernal.

It probably wouldn't even come down to a 1v1 duel considering the builds we're talking about. More armies of the dead vs. legions of the damned, with the big stick powers behind them playing strategic weapon.
 
Fellow questers, don't you think we should consult with Michael about Lydia's participation? It's impolite and irresponsible to make your mentor face this kind of surprises. And there are always mundane sharks ready to take a bite of financial assets, so Lydia should probably ask her new spirit guide for advice.
 
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Legendary Attribute can add special features.
Making him not loose successess from Nat. 1s would be one option.
He is not only far less likely to fail any shot, but also can't botch.
That's getting a little too close to exalted bullshit. I'd probably just go with letting the 1s subtract successes, but counting negative successes as a normal 0 success fail.
 
That's getting a little too close to exalted bullshit. I'd probably just go with letting the 1s subtract successes, but counting negative successes as a normal 0 success fail.
It's an inbuild feature for all Caste Attributes or Abilities an Exalted might have.
Giving it to a single legendary attribute doesn't seem too OP.

Here's the wiki-quote:
He has overcome the issues with the human nervous system that impede accurate shooting, and so has never been known to miss a target.[7][8]
I can't check the references since I don't have those books though.
 
It's an inbuild feature for all Caste Attributes or Abilities an Exalted might have.
Giving it to a single legendary attribute doesn't seem too OP.

Here's the wiki-quote:

I can't check the references since I don't have those books though.
Fair enough. I do remember what you're talking about from the books, I'm just wary of making everyone an exalted tier badass just because they're known to be good.

Stuff like legendary success stop being so legendary if they're easily accessible as a matter of course to everyone who matters. It stops being amazing and starts being the minimum bar for anyone to participate in the setting.
 
Fair enough. I do remember what you're talking about from the books, I'm just wary of making everyone an exalted tier badass just because they're known to be good.

Stuff like legendary success stop being so legendary if they're easily accessible as a matter of course to everyone who matters. It stops being amazing and starts being the minimum bar for anyone to participate in the setting.
You do have a point.

But I think century-old Kincaid being far superhuman in his speciality isn't the step out there.
Most Wizards, Vampires, Fey and various critters out there are still roughly humanish and if they are greater, then mostly just in their single area of expertise.
 
You do have a point.

But I think century-old Kincaid being far superhuman in his speciality isn't the step out there.
Most Wizards, Vampires, Fey and various critters out there are still roughly humanish and if they are greater, then mostly just in their single area of expertise.
A century isn't an impressive amount of time on these scales. As far as wizards are concerned it's barely enough to round out your build properly.

I think he should be superhuman, but if you don't tap the breaks at least a little then the whole setting undergoes dice inflation and the meanings assigned to success levels stop making sense. You need 10+ dice and a botch negator just to be a mook worth specific mention when someone kills you, instead of sharing with the other background statistic grade chaff.
 
Similar; but it made the user someone in Mab's peer group, not her equal. Remember the WoJ on the Erlking; not everyone in Muhammad Ali's weight class is as good a boxer as he was.

She wouldn't want to fight the Erlking, but there's a reason she's the fey superpower and he's just a state on her border.

I wasn't suggesting we could out muscle Mab necessarily, but that if the cornerstone of the infernal's build path lives up to the hype that someone in the league we're talking about could be threatened by a well built infernal.

It probably wouldn't even come down to a 1v1 duel considering the builds we're talking about. More armies of the dead vs. legions of the damned, with the big stick powers behind them playing strategic weapon.
no it straight up said he'd be able to beat her if the darkhallow succeeded. The Erkling and a lady though he said it wouldn't even be a fight. Not to say they'd have the same organizational power, skill(well maybe in some areas due to bullshit just letting them do new things along with their power), or contacts.
 
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A century isn't an impressive amount of time on these scales. As far as wizards are concerned it's barely enough to round out your build properly.
Sorry, he's not a century old, that's a typo, but multiple centuries.
He had a run-in with Ebenezer in the 19th century and survived.

I think from what I can find on him that he is legitimatly one of the most dangerous almost-human people on the planet.
He doesn't have the broad array of options a Senior Council Wizard might have, or the raw power of a God or high-tier Fey, but he has survived as a supernatural mercenary since working for Vlad Drakul himself, with all the enemies made, survived and buried that implies.
 
IIRC, he is beyond "human normal badass" and well into supernaturally good at mundane military stuff. He is batman with guns, except the DF setting doesn't pretend his bullshit is even remotely possible for humans.
Yeah, which is why my hypothetical had him rolling 22 dice to snipe. Which is overtly impossibly supernatural.

This is what I meant by dice inflation devaluing successes.
no it straight up said he'd be able to beat her if the darkhallow succeeded. The Erkling and a lady though he said it wouldn't even be a fight. Not to say they'd have the same organizational power, skill(well maybe in some areas due to bullshit just letting them do new things along with their power), or contacts.
No it doesn't. Here's the relevant question and answer.

I'm still curious about who could hurt Mab. Other than Titania, nobody comes to mind.


Hmmm. In terms of pure, raw power, several who have appeared or been mentioned in the books could pull it off, though neither side would really "win" as much as "continue to exist." Plus, the sudden absence of Mab would do freaking HIDEOUS things to the earth. But here's who has the necessary horsepower do it:
o Titania–though it would be a coin toss. Almost literally.
o The Mothers (who wouldn't)
o The White Council. As in, ALL the White Council. Every wizard on the planet. And they'd need her Name.
o Drakul.
o Ferrovax.
o The Red Court–again, ALL the Red Court, though their odds wouldn't be good.
o The entire White Court–very, very long odds on that, but if they actually pulled it off, whoever took Mab would effectively control her power.
o Cowl (if the Darkhallow had succeeded).
o A union of the old Elders of the Black Court. They were freaking scary until the Whites arranged to have them hounded down by mortals.
All of that, of course, assumes that Mab is standing there alone, outside of Faerie, and not commanding an entire nation, literally millions and millions and millions of nightmarish creatures of every description. Which she does.
There's a REASON that when Mab said, "Sign these Accords and abide by them," people listened. :)
That's a list of people who could actually hurt her in a fight, but wouldn't win so much as do damage and survive the attempt. Assuming that it happened in a white room, and that she comes in with no prep.

The actual plan was for Cowl to cooperate with assaults from the red court. He was going to start a fight Mab to hold her attention while the white council was killed by vampires forcing their way through faerie, then finish it with the support of the god and demigod tier reds.
 
Yeah, which is why my hypothetical had him rolling 22 dice to snipe. Which is overtly impossibly supernatural.

This is what I meant by dice inflation devaluing successes.

No it doesn't. Here's the relevant question and answer.


That's a list of people who could actually hurt her in a fight, but wouldn't win so much as do damage and survive the attempt. Assuming that it happened in a white room, and that she comes in with no prep.

The actual plan was for Cowl to cooperate with assaults from the red court. He was going to start a fight Mab to hold her attention while the white council was killed by vampires forcing their way through faerie, then finish it with the support of the god and demigod tier reds.
I didn't say he was guaranteed a win mind you just that he could win a fight. Also plan? What plan? As far as I know there wasn't a plan for mab at least not immediately after said godhood.
 
I didn't say he was guaranteed a win mind you just that he could win a fight. Also plan? What plan? As far as I know there wasn't a plan for mab at least not immediately after said godhood.
What I'm arguing is that if the best he can manage is a mutual K.O in a white room then he wouldn't actually win a fight outside of it, because he'd have to deal with other factors. Like Mab's high nobility (which includes gods and god tier entities), her local authority over the nevernever, fortified positions set up to support top tier fey magic, her army, and any allies she pulls in.

The plan I was referring to was the deal Cowl had with the red court. They'd support him in exchange for his assistance against the fey.

With winter allowing the white council movement through their borders the war started going worse for the reds. They wanted to force their way through winter, kill the senior council and turn as many wizards as they could, then turn around and savage the fey to keep them from immediately retaliating.

They couldn't do that alone though, which was what they wanted Cowl for. Neither of them alone could do the job, but the red court's high nobility and god-king plus a guy who could actually get in a fist fight with Mab could.
 
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