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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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DragonParadox said:
Because making a new spirit comes with all kinds of awkward questions about both the morality and the practicality of the charm. What does the new toaster spirit know about the world and is is right to make it a servant etc...? Alternatively if it is a summoning with the price up front, you get in here and out of Hell but you have to serve me all those issues go away.
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But what about the drama.

View: https://youtu.be/X7HmltUWXgs?t=53
Which is directly and funnily applicable to the charm as it is written.

Though an argument can be made that the new mind is machine like and lacks emotions. This has precedence in 2E Autochthon and the machine spirits there.
 
uju32 said:
WoD doesnt have an almighty God.
This setting does.
I would absolutely be on the Angel. I just dont want to be in the blast radius.
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Eh... the power of the Almighty in WoD, specifically Demon the Fallen is debatable, though as fits the World of Darkness he is certainly absent in most things and may or may not be wrong/evil depending on who you believe. Also Oblivion may not realize it is hurting people and actually be nice if you somehow got to talk to it.

As to if the White God is omnipotent in Dresdenverse, well Molly certainly believes that... and she tries not to think of that time an angel asked her not to look at angels instead of making it impossible to do so.
 
Artemis1992 said:
It had, the past tense is important.

In the modern nights God is either dead or hides himself from all his creation.
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Both the way the August Personage of Jade disappeared, that is, with a mysterious smile before turning away and the collection of absurd luck and coincidences which constantly let Wan-Kuei spirits out of the Hells implies that he's just hidden and doing whatever, and the Gehenna scenario explicitly has him active.

Other than that, M20's Umbra hierarchy at least implies that he exists still in my opinion, as well as the existence and nature of the Absolute in Book of the Fallen implies his omnipotence.

There is also Houses of the Fallen, if you want to speak Demon which...says the same thing regarding power and omnipotence.
 
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Valkhir said:
Yes it does?

It's implied that whatever is making imbuing Hunters may be one, which is why I named the Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen, and I think its confirmed that two are active. Only two, though.
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My understanding is that it had. Past tense.
Whether it still does is unknown, and deliberately unclear.
And what angels are around dont seem to be in the same weight class as the DF angels.

Whether the DF angels are that intrinsically powerful, or that being backed by Big G gives them a force multiplier, is unclear.

Whatever is imbuing Hunters doesnt need to be more than a Mab-level entity, as I understand it; note that I only briefly skimmed Hunter, so I dont have any significant knowledge of that book line's lore.
Still, we're not talking a production line for Solars here, or even DBs.
 
Artemis1992 said:
Do you have a quote for that?

I was pretty sure that no demon released in the modern nights has found any proof that god is still active on earth.
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The Demon part is about the omnipotence, specifically I'll get a quote, but its about the Infinite touching the Finite, speaking of the whole of Creation, which due to the nature of the upper/deep Umbra and stuff like Qlippoth, the nature of the Tellurian makes it so that it means Infinite even compared to endless different infinities.

The presence of God being active is only proven by Gehenna scenarios, which all have that as true, so depends on if you use metaplot, but if you are asking these questions I'd say yeah.

Hunter Storyteller's Companion has the fact that Ebon Dragon and Scarlet Queen are two Angels who are active.
 
Artemis1992 said:
It had, the past tense is important.

In the modern nights God is either dead or hides himself from all his creation.
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Re: Angels, here's Word of Jim on the subject from a Reddit AMA:
Are Mab and Titania equal to the Archangels in terms of raw power? What about the Mothers?
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Nowhere close. Like, /nowhere/ close. Angels are so far beyond a being like Mab that there's just no comparison to be made. Mab might be able to, if she really worked at it, enchant the world into an ice age. But an angel could destroy the SUN.

I mean, for you and me, there's no difference between them. But relative to one another, there's a HUGE difference. The angels have far more power.
But.

Mab has far more /freedom/ in what she can do with her power. Bigger and stronger doesn't mean you win the fight all by itself. Ask a hawk the next time you see it being run out of town by songbirds. Mab might have less muscle, but she can actually apply her muscle to a huge variety of situations--angels exist behind limits hardwired into their very beings.

Angels are, in this instance, kind of like a super powerful AI. Within the world of the computer, it's not a force that can be effectively resisted. It runs the place.

But that same AI can only do what it's been told to do--and Mab is a user with mid-level admin access. She can't command or delete those AIs, but she knows why they were made, how they work--and how to get around them if necessary.
Mab isn't stronger than an angel. But she is, in most situations, far more powerful.
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But MY answer was going to be to say that angelic powers simply exist on an order of magnitude beyond that of anything happening on a level a mortal could understand. I mean, who actually has more power in a production: the lead character, or the lowly stage hand who is running his lights and audio. That person playing the character might get the limelight, but the dude in all black is running the show.

A lowly footsoldier angel is a power of an order of magnitude greater than all the local-scale supernatural beings we've seen in the Dresden Files put together. I mean, it wouldn't be a fight. The angel wins, hands down.

Except the angel wouldn't ever win, because more than likely the angel would never be allowed to fight. It's a being of such power that it exists behind strict walls of control, limits beyond which it simply cannot, by its very nature, tread. When an angel IS allowed to smite something, you get rains of fire, flaming cities and pillars of salt. But mostly they are epic beings for epic times and epic actions. It isn't their place to interfere in the lives of the beings of the universe--angels exist to preserve the nature and order of that universe just so all those little beings can do what they do.

Uriel is being a cheeky bugger and taking terrible chances, doing what he is with the Swords, trying to get involved in mortal affairs without actually getting involved. Only Lucifer has danced that close to the line before, and that one didn't work out so well.
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Source:

Reddit - Dive into anything

www.reddit.com www.reddit.com
 
Demon said:
God brushed up against reality, the merest touch of
the infinite with the finite, and the perfect clockwork
of Creation was forever shattered. Reality began to
wind down, entropy entered into the universe and will
one day stand victorious. The multiple realities of
Paradise started to break off.
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This is meaningful due to the nature of these realities, I am not sure I want to go into it, but if needed I will. Read up Epiphanies (the realms) from Umbra stuff from Mage and Spirit stuff for implications.

Damn if I can find where Houses of the Fallen is for me at the moment.

If you have it, it's on pg 5, where they see the world being created iirc, and then compare it to what the Absolute from Book of the Fallen is, which is the absolute unitary, solitary lightless void that was before Creation, and its attributes.

Edit: For a quick comparison, the Descent to the Absolute is going through Qlipphot, which are each unborn universes, either never made or shattered, which are each infinitely lesser than the Absolute, and this is universe as in the complete thing, not a singular world in the thread of the Tellurian.

Edit 2: If you don't have Hunter Storyteller's Companion, wiki says Demon: Days of Fire verse 72 also says the same thing.

Edit 3: Yeah, you need to get into Mage stuff for this. Epiphanies, Supernal Realms, etc.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I mean it is not going to say dark and terrible things to you, it is going to say flattering things and make suggestions for evil plots, that is how you engage with the boss. :V
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Would it at least snark/mess with Molly's siblings? I can see that happening unless Molly prohibits it. Could lead to a lot of funny situations.
 
I'm kind of in two minds on this since it could impact the vote, but have you guys considered how Hollow Mind Possession synergies with Charred Sinner Renewal. Specifically your limit from just attempting the former charm until you get a permanent is Essene but the latter means you get one charm every 15 minutes... which means you can spent the 1 Essence you need to bind those devils every 15 minutes assuming the tub of tainted liquid is in the same room.
 
Yzarc said:
Would it at least snark/mess with Molly's siblings? I can see that happening unless Molly prohibits it. Could lead to a lot of funny situations.
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Molly's driving a modern car. With electronics.
It obviously gets the first AI demon helper spirit machine kami.
That has lots of potential for shenanigans with everything from the radio to driving.

Molly gets a self driving car before Tesla.
DragonParadox said:
I'm kind of in two minds on this since it could impact the vote, but have you guys considered how Hollow Mind Possession synergies with Charred Sinner Renewal. Specifically your limit from just attempting the former charm until you get a permanent is Essene but the latter means you get one charm every 15 minutes... which means you can spent the 1 Essence you need to bind those devils every 15 minutes assuming the tub of tainted liquid is in the same room.
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Yes. Thats why I put them both in the same plan.
There's no reason Molly's cellphone, or anything electronic small enough to fit in her backpack, shouldnt have a permanent demon AI in it the same day she gets the charm.

Just take it into the bathroom and keep rerolling.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I'm kind of in two minds on this since it could impact the vote, but have you guys considered how Hollow Mind Possession synergies with Charred Sinner Renewal. Specifically your limit from just attempting the former charm until you get a permanent is Essene but the latter means you get one charm every 15 minutes... which means you can spent the 1 Essence you need to bind those devils every 15 minutes assuming the tub of tainted liquid is in the same room.
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This is not that useful if the stuff we need to use it on is kind of...not at home.

Like security systems, enemy cars, city wide security, banks, planes, etc.
 
Valkhir said:
This is not that useful if the stuff we need to use it on is kind of...not at home.
Like security systems, enemy cars, city wide security, banks, planes, etc.
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Networks.
Even by 2006, a lot of that stuff is networked. Your AI demon in your phone can go hit the Chicago PD mainframe from your bedside over the networks, or crosscheck the Metropolitan PD computers in London for a foreigner's criminal record.

There's other stuff that is relatively standalone and you need to go physically see it to put a demon inside, but the vast bulk of Chicago's networked electronic infrastructure, and a lot of the international networks, open to us with this one charm.
This is essentially justification for your Spies X Background.

See Gorfel, for example.
We can tell our AI demon to spend some time looking for his face in international records, and if anything turns up, we get pinged.

If we were being nosey(and to be clear, Im against this), we could look up Lydia's travel records, and those of her father.
Or look up Sanya's international travel records.
There's lots of ways this works.
 
uju32 said:
Even by 2006, a lot of that stuff is networked. Your AI demon in your phone can go hit the Chicago PD mainframe from your bedside over the networks, or crosscheck the Metropolitan PD computers in London for a foreigner's criminal record.
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Hm.....I will point out that the said AI must know how to hack the said mainframes if we want to use it like that.

The charm awakens it, but does not confer upon it any new ability.
 
Yzarc said:
Hm.....I will point out that the said AI must know how to hack the said mainframe if we want to use it like that.
The charm awakens it, but does not confer upon it any new ability.
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AI demon. Cyberspace is (one of)its native habitats.
Techno spirits usually come with that sort of thing in their portfolio in WoD, and Bob apparently learned to access the Internet just by seeing his possessor during his stay with Butters.

QM's judgement though.
 
uju32 said:
AI demon. Cyberspace is (one of)its native habitats.
Techno spirits usually come with that sort of thing in their portfolio in WoD, and Bob apparently learned to access the Internet just by seeing his possessor during his stay with Butters.

QM's judgement though.
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Accessing the internet is native to any demon you put into an internet connected device, but yo give them the power to hack you would have to either buy them as a familiar or if you want a lot of them doing the same thing allies.

Even without hacking looking up things online as long as they are public becomes a free action since it's not like your phone has much else to do when you are not using it.
 
DragonParadox said:
Accessing the internet is native to any demon you put into an internet connected device, but yo give them the power to hack you would have to either buy them as a familiar or if you want a lot of them doing the same thing allies.

Even without hacking looking up things online as long as they are public becomes a free action since it's not like your phone has much else to do when you are not using it.
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So we want the Allies Background.
Familiars in ExWoD get a bunch of custom charms that dont seem appropriate for a machine spirit.
 
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