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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Modus_Tollens said:
Mostly it comes down to whether or not that is better sought by her creating great works, and we have seen some of this already, or by giving others a chance to perform their own smaller works and pilot their own lives.
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Again people are acting as if we can't empower others without a PG. Unless we have plans to amass an army of mortals we aren't going to be vetting and boosting people fast enough for a PG to be required for that purpose. It would only be for convenience sake.
 
BoredMan said:
Again people are acting as if we can't empower others without a PG. Unless we have plans to amass an army of mortals we aren't going to be vetting and boosting people fast enough for a PG to be required for that purpose. It would only be for convenience sake.
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And the problem is we cannot grant awakened essence, that the PG can. That the acquirement ablity to learn MA, and Sorcery.
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Where did you get that idea Proving Grounds are almost exclusively about moral integrity. Just set it so that people like Nicodemus cannot utilize it, IE exclude people with false virtue. Or just invite an Angel to run it
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And what makes you think we have the power or authority to do that?

Knight of the Blackened Denarius Nicodemus Archleone can use the Shroud of Turin to attempt to kill millions of people, and there was nothing stopping him. The same dude can arrange to steal the Holy Grail and make use of it, and nothing stopped him. Winter Knight Harry Dresden picked up and wielded the Spear of Destiny with no ethical commitments whatsoever.

So no, I dont buy the idea that we can DRM lock something like this.
Thats well beyond the capabilities of an E3/E4 Solaroid in this setting. The Yama Kings would straight up not exist if you could DRM lock power to morality and ethics. Neither would naagloshii.

Earth-Destroyer said:
And the problem is we cannot grant awakened essence, that the PG can. That the acquirement ablity to learn MA, and Sorcery.
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1)And can you explain why we would want to disseminate MA and Sorcery?
Let alone in a world where a Terrestrial Exalt like Lydia only starts with 5m of Essence total at E1, and thus mortals would start with much less.

2) If it was useful, why wouldnt we be able to grant it?
Infernal Exalted could do it in Creation with no problem. Its just not particularly useful in this AU; this is not Creation, and the same rules do not apply.
Yog said:
I'll find one tomorrow, don't have time today, sorry. But I distinctly remember this.
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No problem.
Just tag me if you find it.
 
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BoredMan said:
Again people are acting as if we can't empower others without a PG.
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The difference is that most methods of empowerment that Molly has come with strings attached as a feature. It's in the nature of her power that all methods of bestowing power will tie people to her. Proving grounds, while dangerous, are a much more palatable option for a lot of people.
 
uju32 said:
1)And can you explain why we would want to disseminate MA and Sorcery?
Let alone in a world where a Terrestrial Exalt like Lydia only starts with 5m of Essence total at E1, and thus mortals would start with much less.
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Path of the Arbiter style, you have to be both moral and upstanding person to learn it. And it lets you spend essence to make Magical Arms and Armor, and a mount. Perfect to teach judges, Knights orders and whatnot. It is extremely cost efficient for Wod, and promotes the spreading of the values Molly relives in. Being able to run around with personal weapons and armor of Creation forge from you own virtue, is beyond what Molly can do.


[X] A Proving Ground, allowing for the improvement of Mortal Talents, potentially even the Awakening of Essence
 
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Modus_Tollens said:
Ultimately, I'm not in this just for us. Not just as Molly, the prime mover, the creature that wears reality like a mantle and grasps it like a sword. She will come into power enough, enough that eventually she may need to step away from the universe to preserve it, and so I am not desperate for that tiny bit more that much faster.

What I am hungry for is to see her give people a helping hand, to pull them to their feet, because the world isn't always fair. Either they are the victims of their own helplessness or they end up victims to their own power and broken natures. I want Molly to be a friend even to enemies and strangers, a friend to God and his plan, and a friend to the world.

Mostly it comes down to whether or not that is better sought by her creating great works, and we have seen some of this already, or by giving others a chance to perform their own smaller works and pilot their own lives.
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Both are good, but the artifact stuff is something we don't readily have another source of. We can do enhancements, but splendors are very high level effects and costly to create.

This sort of reducer is the sort of thing that could let us trade splendors to people for the purposes of improving the world a lot more easily. Mail order mega fortresses, tools for manipulating reality in new ways, foundations to backstop people who need something to help them come into their own, all that kind of stuff.

There's also the arcana interaction. From the rulings on the transformation splendors @Yog has designed it should be possible to forge things to transform people in certain ways, even if it's not the same as the PG would be.

Shih with immortal super bodies can clean up even if they're not wizards, and we can do a lot of things around that in addition to the other benefits.

Edit:

Earth-Destroyer said:
And the problem is we cannot grant awakened essence, that the PG can. That the acquirement ablity to learn MA, and Sorcery.
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uju32 said:
And can you explain why we would want to disseminate MA and Sorcery?
Let alone in a world where a Terrestrial Exalt like Lydia only starts with 5m of Essence total at E1, and thus mortals would start with much less.
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Earth-Destroyer said:
Path of the Arbiter style, you have to be both moral and upstanding person to learn it. And it lets you spend essence to make Magical Arms and Armor, and a mount. Perfect to teach judges, Knights orders and whatnot. It is extremely cost efficient for Wod, and promotes the spreading of the values Molly relives in. Being able to run around with personal weapons and armor of Creation forge from you own virtue, is beyond what Molly can do.


[X] A Proving Ground, allowing for the improvement of Mortal Talents, potentially even the Awakening of Essence
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Recreating an entire style is a lot, not sure it benefits doing this now. Also it's not impossible without this, there's just more of a risk of exploding.

We really shouldn't spread around Sorcery either. It's very nice, but CCG is a weapon that can end the world and while we may not intentionally hand it out once sorcery is out of the bag it or some similar effect being dredged up to ruin everyone's day is just a matter of time.
 
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I really don't want to have to fight off mortal and supernatural factions alike in Boston to keep a Proving Grounds from being abused guys. That doesn't sound fun it just seems like a hassle and a headache.

Edit: This place would be the most valuable asset of ours on earth by far and everyone would be able to take a shot it. No way are people not going to try sneaking in or taking it when we aren't in Boston. As is, we spent almost 300 pages defending this place from Mikaboshi and hitting him right after as a retaliation strike.
 
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BronzeTongue said:
Recreating an entire style is a lot, not sure it benefits doing this now. Also it's not impossible without this, there's just more of a risk of exploding.
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Good thing Molly has the perfect inspiration for the Style IE Micheal his entire personality is perfect for it. And it been GM confirmed as something we can do. Also it only a terrestrial style, one of the best for turning an army of mortals into a power but only Terrestrials style. But only people Like Micheal would benefit from it really. The artifact you make become equal to your virtue rating up to 5 dots.
BronzeTongue said:
We really shouldn't spread around Sorcery either. It's very nice, but CCG is a weapon that can end the world and while we may not intentionally hand it out once sorcery is out of the bag it or some similar effect being dredged up to ruin everyone's day is just a matter of time.
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Dresden files popping thou the veil, is something every single supernatural, can do just by existing. Molly's the odd one out for needed to use a convoluted ritual, instead of just being able to do it at will.
 
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For better or worse, Molly is a crafter. The Forge is a direct upgrade for her crafting ability. Ignoring that doesn't make any sense to me.

We have multiple ways to empower people already, and we can get others through Charms. Sanctuary can even empower bog standard muggles, if they're willing to accept some cybernetics. None of these options will require AP to use.
 
[X] A Proving Ground, allowing for the improvement of Mortal Talents, potentially even the Awakening of Essence

This is particularly interesting as Molly has the corrupted remains of some of the Wan Xian proving grounds integrated into her soul. Those originally had moral tests built in.
 
Proving ground or forge...
Wish we could do both.
@DragonParadox
Is there a way to make it both?
Even if it increases the AP required?

Assuming it can't be both, which do we need more or sooner?
Which will be easier to get from something else?
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Path of the Arbiter style, you have to be both moral and upstanding person to learn it. And it lets you spend essence to make Magical Arms and Armor, and a mount. Perfect to teach judges, Knights orders and whatnot. It is extremely cost efficient for Wod, and promotes the spreading of the values Molly relives in. Being able to run around with personal weapons and armor of Creation forge from you own virtue, is beyond what Molly can do.


[X] A Proving Ground, allowing for the improvement of Mortal Talents, potentially even the Awakening of Essence
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No you do not.
There is absolutely nothing in the mechanics or the lore of Exalted 2E Martial Arts that prevents you learning it and being fucking incredibly evil. A Denarian could pick up Arbiter Style just fine. An Abyssal or Infernal could practice Solar Hero and vice versa.

Do not mistake aspirational fluff for actual mechanical limitations.


We have a literal army of people who are sourced with magical arms and armor and equipment. They dont need none of that.
Shih MAs already exist as well.
I cannot see any justification for investing the extraordinary effort required to invent terrestrial MAs.

Especially since Molly is a not Twilight Infernal who is a crafter and can literally grant superpowers with a touch.
She literally has ZERO Brawl. Why would she be interested in inventing TMA?
BronzeTongue said:
Recreating an entire style is a lot, not sure it benefits doing this now. Also it's not impossible without this, there's just more of a risk of exploding.

We really shouldn't spread around Sorcery either. It's very nice, but CCG is a weapon that can end the world and while we may not intentionally hand it out once sorcery is out of the bag it or some similar effect being dredged up to ruin everyone's day is just a matter of time.
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^^^
Literally the world doesnt work the same way it used to.
The idea of recreating TMAs currently makes no sense I can see.
Especially since Shih MAs already exist.

You want to play kung fu master, go learn a Shih Bridge.

For Exalts, there's Secret(Sidereal) Martial Arts available to Sidereals and other Exalts statted up in the Sidereal section of ExWoD. Only Siderals can master them, but Solaroids can get a fair way up the charm tree.
Those already exist.
 
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Earth-Destroyer said:
Good thing Molly has the perfect inspiration for the Style IE Micheal his entire personality is perfect for it. And it been GM confirmed as something we can do. Also it only a terrestrial style, one of the best for turning an army of mortals into a power but only Terrestrials style. But only people Like Micheal would benefit from it really. The artifact you make become equal to your virtue rating up to 5 dots.
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You're still talking about a lot of up front investment for something we have no clear start on. We haven't even mastered a single martial art yet let alone started on advancing one to exalted levels.

If we get around to that we can try for essence enlightenment with artifact protections after we have the style instead of paying in advance and messing around until we have your dream use ready.


Earth-Destroyer said:
Dresden files popping thou the veil, is something every single supernatural, can do just by existing. Molly's the odd one out for needed to use a convoluted ritual, instead of just being able to do it at will.
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This isn't about the veil to the spirit world, it's about the Outside. Getting stuff from it into reality is involved. Mortals have to be the ones to do it, and they have to go about it certain ways. Even then they're basically summoning specific entities instead of outright opening a door.

Up till we learned CCG if the Outside wants in at scale they must go through the Outer Gate. Now she and anyone else who ever learns that bit of sorcery can open a hole through which anything can come through for as long as it lasts.

We don't have to share that ability to share sorcery in general, but once the cat is out of the bag it becomes much easier to research particular tools. See how Mab might be trying to recreate the exorcism, but is likely floundering because she has no basis in proper essence manipulation to start from.

Consider what would happen if the knowledge spread, someone went rogue, or nemesis took a sorcerer. It's like losing a dirty nuke.

Artifacts are a good alternative because we can share AS like effects but retain more control over what they can do and who has them. Infrastructure AoEs can do a lot of work.
 
DragonParadox said:
Alas no, you would have to figure out how to make another one but given that this was made by a murderous lunatic warlock it seems unlikely ethically digging another Well would be possible in the mid to long term
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Ask Odin where the Marauder who built this was buried, and use it as a Crown focus to ask how he did it.
Figuring out the how isnt likely to be much of an issue.
Reverse-engineering the process so as not to have the ethical issues involved in this one likely is a significant project.

As would finding an appropriate location that is unclaimed and secure. Or gathering the right resources.
I doubt these things are subject to mass production.
 
[X] An Artifact Forge, reducing the cost of Splendors by ● to a minimum of ● (●●●●● to ●●●●, ●●●● to ●●● etc...)
 
@DragonParadox would Molly get any benefits to other kinds of crafting like what you described for Tiffany? Not that the splendor thing isn't excellent on its own, but since you mentioned it having other effects I'm curious about stuff like prodigies and Arcana.

Just moving the reagent barrier up one level for the former and/or allowing us to use the forge to make arcana without the cool down cycle of a natural dragon nest would be very helpful without breaking game balance.

the DragonBard said:
Proving ground or forge...
Wish we could do both.
@DragonParadox
Is there a way to make it both?
Even if it increases the AP required?

Assuming it can't be both, which do we need more or sooner?
Which will be easier to get from something else?
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Crafting has a lot of long and immediate term value. It's been the basis of a lot of influence on our part* and stands to be worth more directly and indirectly going forward. We've also been talking a lot about a crafting heavy turn, so the benefits would be immediately relevant.

There's also a potential substitute to the PG effects in the use of permanent transformation splendors, which are very good even if the PG would likely be better at that specific task. The forge on the other hand offers benefits that it's difficult to determine how to seek any real substitute for later.

We'd get value either way, but the forge is harder to get and offers more in our general circumstances.

* To cover the current major things:
- Lily's amulet
- The Sin Eater's Gob Stopper
- Our trade with Odin
- The Plague Flower

And potential future ones:
- Equipment for our circle
- Equipment for Molly to keep up with other exalts**
- transformation items to enhance large groups in predictable low risk ways
- infrastructure builds to support groups(i.e casting enhancements for the council)
- blocking nemesis
-potentially building items translated from AS spells
- a safe gate replacement involving pocket dimensions to carry trade goods at high volume.

** This is a major component in my view. If other exalts become a thing keeping up will become a problem. Crafting is something we can get good at which will let us cover the gap. Any solaroid can do it, but not all have the mindset. Even then infernals have a lot of tricky properties that play well with this sort of thing that others don't.

If a dawn melee monster comes at us with blood in their eyes we'd be in a lot of trouble, but abusing charm-splendor interactions could let us butcher an arbitrarily blenderific exalt unless they have a very specific counter.
 
BronzeTongue said:
@DragonParadox would Molly get any benefits to other kinds of crafting like what you described for Tiffany? Not that the splendor thing isn't excellent on its own, but since you mentioned it having other effects I'm curious about stuff like prodigies and Arcana.

Just moving the reagent barrier up one level for the former and/or allowing us to use the forge to make arcana without the cool down cycle of a natural dragon nest would be very helpful without breaking game balance.
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It would make Arcana cheaper in terms of resources for the body, also by 1 Dot. No effect on prodigies though those are mortal magic. Same reason reactor for making Uranium fuel rods does not help you make combustion engines
 
The jump between one point and two point splendors is very significant, both in cost and capacity.
With the Forge two points splendors take exactly as much resources and work for Molly as one point splendors.
This makes it possible to equip a lot of our agents with two point splendors as default. This is pretty huge.
 
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DragonParadox said:
It would make Arcana cheaper in terms of resources for the body, also by 1 Dot. No effect on prodigies though those are mortal magic. Same reason reactor for making Uranium fuel rods does not help you make combustion engines
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How does that work for Phantasms and Emanations? The resource cost to them is very loose for everything shy of a the magic item needed for a 5 dot build.

My read was that the cost for the token is low enough that it doesn't warrant a dot rating to make since it's one of the few that doesn't give an actual requirement for what resources dot level you need for different levels, but I could see not wanting to play it that way.

I'd leave it for later, but the latter type is one we'll probably use most often since it's infernal exclusive option and has some useful properties for us.
 
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