Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

No, "imperfections in the disguise" is stuff like getting the eye color wrong, or having an arm being visible when you are imitating someone armless. It's not "fooling all the senses, beyond 5 basic ones".

Also, I'd like to point out that if sight can see through BMI, then pretty much everyone who we really want this charm for will be able to see through it.

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The language says what it says, in multiple ways.
First it says its a perfect illusion, so you dont get details wrong.
Then it says no imperfections, so if for example, a blind Exalt makes a disguise, there's no mistakes made.

The intent seems pretty clear.
Its a perfect effect. You dont get to ruleslawyer around it by claiming that this new person has extra senses that the Exalt cant possibly have known about; Exalted magic is bullshit like that.

Also, I'd like to point out that if sight can see through BMI, then pretty much everyone who we really want this charm for will be able to see through it.

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Thats not true.

Literally everytime people open the Sight they risk the equivalent of SAN damage, and they never forget what they saw. Dresden and the Gatekeeper were still flinching years later in Cold Days due to things they saw with the Sight earlier in their careers. And the Sight is a wizard exclusive, one of the things that make wizards so scary in-setting.

Similar effects in the supernatural appear to be deity-tier effects or greater.

Gard doesnt appear to have the Sight in canon, and neither does Bob.
Lash did not have it in canon, and does not have it in this quest; she has something similar but weaker.
None of the ghosts in Ghost Story had it. Goodman Grey the half-naagloshii did not have it.

None of the fomor sorcerers appeared to have it; Mag wouldnt have gotten punked multiple times if he did.
The Leanansidhe obviously didnt have it, else the whole problem with the athame would not have happened.
I dont know if Shagnasty had it. Or if the Fallen do. Or if Dragons do. No data.

 

[Degorium]

I did put different fluff up for a reason, the goal was to make something to fill the role in an interesting way without the same risks.

But honestly, SGI's house rules here do make it basically make it a soul hierarchy charm - look at any of the posts on how the soul structure of the clones works IC. That's why I approached it from this angle.

There isn't another ExWoD charm for this sort of thing, and Holden got rid of prereqs for everything, so I don't see why it shouldn't be done this way.

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Though there is no restriction on which charm you can buy it's positioned in the hell that it's in kind of gives away its position that you're supposed to buy it right it's a 5 dot hell of being skined alive charm. If you were following any kind of progression at all you would have already have the ability to at will sever your connections to any and everyone, sever your connection from the earth, severed the connections of other people to their possessions, sever the connection to sleep, sever other people's connections to other people entirely. The fact that you can choose to bring those little winds back to you is interesting but really if you choose to instead slit open their throat and then drink their marrow you could also do that.

 

[Degorium]

The language says what it says, in multiple ways.
First it says its a perfect illusion, so you dont get details wrong.
Then it says no imperfections, so if for example, a blind Exalt makes a disguise, there's no mistakes made.

The intent seems pretty clear.
Its a perfect effect. You dont get to ruleslawyer around it by claiming that this new person has extra senses that the Exalt cant possibly have known about; Exalted magic is bullshit like that.


Thats not true.

Literally everytime people open the Sight they risk the equivalent of SAN damage, and they never forget what they saw. Dresden and the Gatekeeper were still flinching years later in Cold Days due to things they saw with the Sight earlier in their careers. And the Sight is a wizard exclusive, one of the things that make wizards so scary in-setting.

Similar effects in the supernatural appear to be deity-tier effects or greater.

Gard doesnt appear to have the Sight in canon, and neither does Bob.
Lash did not have it in canon, and does not have it in this quest; she has something similar but weaker.
None of the ghosts in Ghost Story had it. Goodman Grey the half-naagloshii did not have it.

None of the fomor sorcerers appeared to have it; Mag wouldnt have gotten punked multiple times if he did.
The Leanansidhe obviously didnt have it, else the whole problem with the athame would not have happened.
I dont know if Shagnasty had it. Or if the Fallen do. Or if Dragons do. No data.

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Except you obviously can because other perfect stealth charms have the language included and the infernal charm set is full of shitty holes like that. Also Holden knows that sensory affects exist. So obviously it was a purposeful choice to keep the language to the physical fools the five senses and specifically doesn't mention any magical senses that anything might possess.

 

[fictionfan]

I think that we all agree that if BMI doesn't work against supernatural senses then it's useless Molly has already proven that she can disguise herself to fool humans. So I am just going to hope that the 5 dot charm isn't in fact useless even if there are other things that I would rather get.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Though there is no restriction on which charm you can buy it's positioned in the hell that it's in kind of gives away its position that you're supposed to buy it right it's a 5 dot hell of being skined alive charm. If you were following any kind of progression at all you would have already have the ability to at will sever your connections to any and everyone, sever your connection from the earth, severed the connections of other people to their possessions, sever the connection to sleep, sever other people's connections to other people entirely. The fact that you can choose to bring those little winds back to you is interesting but really if you choose to instead slit open their throat and then drink their marrow you could also do that.

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No it doesn't. You could buy it at game start, and if Holden had any intent for there to be trees he would have left them in or made a note about it.

You're more likely to buy the expensive stuff later, but reading into the positioning like this isn't going to get meaningful results. We certainly haven't been walking down the charm sets in a progression like this.

In any case, we're talking about buying something in that slot right now with the base charm so even if you were right it'd still fit.

If you don't like it that's fair, but trying to advance the idea that this is invalid based on requirements that aren't present and reading into signs in Holden's page layouts is silly.

 

[Degorium]

I think that we all agree that if BMI doesn't work against supernatural senses then it's useless Molly has already proven that she can disguise herself to fool humans. So I am just going to hope that the 5 dot charm isn't in fact useless even if there are other things that I would rather get.

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I'm not actually arguing that. With dragon paradoxes alteration it's actually a really good charm I don't value it because I don't value overt assassination level stealth being used in any sense except overt assassination.

 

[Nyarky]

First it says its a perfect illusion, so you dont get details wrong.

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Except the charm as written without Dragon's homebrew doesn't say *perfect illusion*, it says: *perfect illusion that fools the five senses* and that little addition means that it doesn't work on things that aren't the five senses as written.

And every supernatural sense is not *the five senses*, so the charm as it is written in the rulebook can be beaten by anything that has an additional sense.

If it wasn't for Dragon's word that it takes the sight to beat it here, that's what the charm would do.

 

[fictionfan]

I'm not actually arguing that. With dragon paradoxes alteration it's actually a really good charm I don't value it because I don't value overt assassination level stealth being used in any sense except overt assassination.

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For overt assassin and general stealth ATP is better. BMI is for fooling people.

Like imagine if we had disguised ourselves as Sandra and bossed her minions around?

 

[Degorium]

No it doesn't. You could buy it at game start, and if Holden had any intent for there to be trees he would have left them in or made a note about it.

You're more likely to buy the expensive stuff later, but reading into the positioning like this isn't going to get meaningful results. We certainly haven't been walking down the charm sets in a progression like this.

In any case, we're talking about buying something in that slot right now with the base charm so even if you were right it'd still fit.

If you don't like it that's fair, but trying to advance the idea that this is invalid based on requirements that aren't present and reading into signs in Holden's page layouts is silly.

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Okay maybe it's because I actually read infernals which is a mistake to read the first two chapters but the actual charm set is amazing but I actually love the flavor of it so I'm not going to completely disregard it for a blatant re-flavoring of it. The little winds do not matter. Them being stabbed in the face does not matter. Them being shavings of your soul does not matter. It doesn't matter when you buy the charm the Clones mean nothing to you that is why you are killing them in the actual text every time you want to learn stuff from them or revive they do not matter to you.

 

[Nyarky]

Okay maybe it's because I actually read infernals which is a mistake to read the first two chapters but the actual charm set is amazing but I actually love the flavor of it so I'm not going to completely disregard it for a blatant re-flavoring of it. The little winds do not matter. Them being stabbed in the face does not matter. Them being shavings of your soul does not matter. It doesn't matter when you buy the charm the Clones mean nothing to you that is why you are killing them in the actual text every time you want to learn stuff from them or revive they do not matter to you.

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It doesn't really matter what SCI is going for anyway when discussing Bronze's charm, as it is a different charm anyway and thus not subject to the same theme.

The entire point of that homebrew is to make our first own charm, not one of the thousand hells or the primordials before it, our own, and thus the flavor is Molly's, not the Silent wind.

 

[BoredMan]

For overt assassin and general stealth ATP is better.

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ATP doesn't block our aura which is why the van with the two stooges inside discovered our arrival. It also wouldn't have stopped* the half Reds from tracking us for miles to the airport. They both do different things for stealth one isn't blatantly better than the other.

 

[Degorium]

It doesn't really matter what SCI is going for anyway when discussing Bronze's charm, as it is a different charm anyway and thus not subject to the same theme.

The entire point of that homebrew is to make our first own charm, not one of the thousand hells or the primordials before it, our own, and thus the flavor is Molly's, not the Silent wind.

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Yeah they had a great charm but it's in terrible replacement for SGI in any sense of the word.

 

[fictionfan]

It doesn't really matter what SCI is going for anyway when discussing Bronze's charm, as it is a different charm anyway and thus not subject to the same theme.

The entire point of that homebrew is to make our first own charm, not one of the thousand hells or the primordials before it, our own, and thus the flavor is Molly's, not the Silent wind.

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If we are going to make such a homebrew charm it should hold the flavor of the 5 fold court. I keep trying to think of something good, but it is hard.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Okay maybe it's because I actually read infernals which is a mistake to read the first two chapters but the actual charm set is amazing but I actually love the flavor of it so I'm not going to completely disregard it for a blatant re-flavoring of it. The little winds do not matter. Them being stabbed in the face does not matter. Them being shavings of your soul does not matter. It doesn't matter when you buy the charm the Clones mean nothing to you that is why you are killing them in the actual text every time you want to learn stuff from them or revive they do not matter to you.

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Which parts are you talking about now, the thing I posted or the base charm? Either way I'm not sure it follows.

The primordial war demonstrated that getting stabbed in the soul sucks, even for primordials. Perhaps especially for primordials.

Things like freedom lets go maintain that.

It seems to me that this is basically a Yozi trying to sour grapes the parts of their identity that were taken from them. Which doesn't actually make them right even if it's a theme they're pushing part of the time.

 

[BoredMan]

Yeah they had a great charm but it's in terrible replacement for SGI in any sense of the word.

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Brownzetongue's charm would allow our clones to retreat to the FiveFoldCourts at will and since the effect would be charm based it'd be basically impossible to counter or stop while leaving no remains that could possibly be used as a focus. There better in one sense at least.

 

[fictionfan]

ATP doesn't block our aura which is why the van with the two stooges inside discovered our arrival. It also wouldn't have stopped* the half Reds from tracking us for miles to the airport. They both do different things for stealth one isn't blatantly better than the other.

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I don't think that is the lesson that I take from.

A wizard and his scrying globe or someone watching a live feed on their security camera is just as vulnerable as that fellow over there in the Hawaiian pants looking with longing at the halcyon glory of golfing-to-be.

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Then again the fact that they noticed any magical disruption at all makes no sense and the fact that I wasn't loudly complaining at the time means that I must not have been reading clearly.

 

[Degorium]

Which parts are you talking about now, the thing I posted or the base charm? Either way I'm not sure it follows.

The primordial war demonstrated that getting stabbed in the soul sucks, even for primordials. Perhaps especially for primordials.

Things like freedom lets go maintain that.

It seems to me that this is basically a Yozi trying to sour grapes the parts of their identity that were taken from them. Which doesn't actually make them right even if it's a theme they're pushing part of the time.

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it is not the Yozi trying to sour grapes. Adorjan the Silent Wind suffered fetich death what came out after the death of Adrian The River of Torments confuses and appalls all of her trapped brethren. She loved a solar enough to give him seven little winds four of them came back to her and became her silent winds again. She loves and loses she flies and forgives she of abhors noise and she flies ever silent. It is purely unique to her this connection and Severance of connection. There's a reason that while she's connected to the reclamation it's purely for her amusement she doesn't care about retaking creation. All the other yozi suffer because they care too much so she cares not one bit or all of her hearts and then flays the connection away once she feels the time is up.

 

[uju32]

Except you obviously can because other perfect stealth charms have the language included and the infernal charm set is full of shitty holes like that. Also Holden knows that sensory affects exist. So obviously it was a purposeful choice to keep the language to the physical fools the five senses and specifically doesn't mention any magical senses that anything might possess.

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That is not true.

The Sidereal charm Ceasing To Exist Approach has no such thing, and its the most powerful disguise charm in the book.

Spoiler: ExWoD p147

Ceasing to exist approaCh (•••••)

The Sidereal summons an emerald prayer strip, affix- es it to her chest, and ceases to exist. She becomes a different person of her own devising, existing somewhere in the world. She reappears somewhere else, having become that new person, complete with a home, relationships, possessions, and a history to support her new existence.

System: Spend 5 Essence. The Sidereal vanishes and ceases to exist, and while she does not exist, no magic can identify her if it targets her through her identity rather than physical location.

The Sidereal's new life may be any manner of in- telligent being: mortal, Exalt, vampire, ghost, or even a spirit. She is transported through the weave of destiny to a place appropriate to begin her new existence. She has 10 dots of Backgrounds supporting her new life. Those around her develop memories and relationships to support the legitimacy of her existence. Thus, if she became a vampire of Clan Brujah, the Prince of her new city would recognize her and remember having approved her presence; if she took the Mentor Background then one of the local Brujah might remember Embracing her; and so forth.

She gains no new powers or abilities from her new life, but her existing Sidereal powers disguise themselves as whatever sort of powers the kind of being the Sidereal pretends to be ought to have. Those around her will ignore any inconsistencies in the Sidereal's existence if she offers up at least a flimsy excuse. Finally, the Sidereal's Arcane Background doesn't carry over into her new life.

The Sidereal may end this Charm at any time, and it automatically terminates if her anima flares. When this Charm ends, the Sidereal is plucked out of her false life, and teleported back to a place appropriate for her true identity.

The Abyssal charm Face-Drinking Bite simply says perfect disguise

Spoiler: ExWoD p184

FaCe-drinKing Bite (•••)

The Abyssal may take someone's likeness along with their blood.

System: By drinking another character's blood, the Abyssal gains the ability to don his appearance as a perfect disguise for the next 24 hours. If she drinks the character to death, she may wear his appearance at any time by spending 1 Essence. This disguise lasts for (Essence rating) hours.

This is a 5-dot Infernal charm.
If you are genuinely out here arguing that its worse at its job than not just 3-dot Solar charms but 2-dot vampire Disciplines, I dont really know what I can tell you.

 

[Azais]

@DragonParadox my suggestion: if the clone's charm is chosen, could you see the various variations of it presented in the topic and choose the best one for us? Since the QM is the one who decides whether a mechanic is balanced and it would save us from another unnecessary vote.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Yeah they had a great charm but it's in terrible replacement for SGI in any sense of the word.

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Terrible how?

From a pure use perspective SGI gives you a fistful of mortals and a resurrection mechanic.

TTON gives the same things, but also has uniform handling for the annoying edge cases we're dealing with and provides an answer to the weaknesses that made SGI a liability.

The cost being that we have to do something more interesting then spending essence and screaming at first use, and if someone kills parts of Molly's soul it hurts until she takes a minute to rub the tension out of a metaphorical muscle.

I'm confused why being stabbed in the soul having even mild and temporary consequences is such a deal breaker here. We don't even want them for combat, and the thing has built in options for improving survivability.

 

[Degorium]

That is not true.

The Sidereal charm Ceasing To Exist Approach has no such thing, and its the most powerful disguise charm in the book.

Spoiler: ExWoD p147

Ceasing to exist approaCh (•••••)

The Sidereal summons an emerald prayer strip, affix- es it to her chest, and ceases to exist. She becomes a different person of her own devising, existing somewhere in the world. She reappears somewhere else, having become that new person, complete with a home, relationships, possessions, and a history to support her new existence.

System: Spend 5 Essence. The Sidereal vanishes and ceases to exist, and while she does not exist, no magic can identify her if it targets her through her identity rather than physical location.

The Sidereal's new life may be any manner of in- telligent being: mortal, Exalt, vampire, ghost, or even a spirit. She is transported through the weave of destiny to a place appropriate to begin her new existence. She has 10 dots of Backgrounds supporting her new life. Those around her develop memories and relationships to support the legitimacy of her existence. Thus, if she became a vampire of Clan Brujah, the Prince of her new city would recognize her and remember having approved her presence; if she took the Mentor Background then one of the local Brujah might remember Embracing her; and so forth.

She gains no new powers or abilities from her new life, but her existing Sidereal powers disguise themselves as whatever sort of powers the kind of being the Sidereal pretends to be ought to have. Those around her will ignore any inconsistencies in the Sidereal's existence if she offers up at least a flimsy excuse. Finally, the Sidereal's Arcane Background doesn't carry over into her new life.

The Sidereal may end this Charm at any time, and it automatically terminates if her anima flares. When this Charm ends, the Sidereal is plucked out of her false life, and teleported back to a place appropriate for her true identity.

The Abyssal charm Face-Drinking Bite simply says perfect disguise

Spoiler: ExWoD p184

FaCe-drinKing Bite (•••)

The Abyssal may take someone's likeness along with their blood.

System: By drinking another character's blood, the Abyssal gains the ability to don his appearance as a perfect disguise for the next 24 hours. If she drinks the character to death, she may wear his appearance at any time by spending 1 Essence. This disguise lasts for (Essence rating) hours.

This is a 5-dot Infernal charm.
If you are genuinely out here arguing that its worse at its job than not just 3-dot Solar charms but 2-dot vampire Disciplines, I dont really know what I can tell you.

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That charm you posted literally says the exalts power disguises themselves. The other says take his appearance. Which seems to suggest like the solar charm the Sidereal's charm goes out of its way to mention possible Supernatural sensory effects that might be able to tell something is wrong and then the Abyssal one doesn't specifically only saying it takes on it a perfect disguise of the person's appearance.

 

[uju32]

Except the charm as written without Dragon's homebrew doesn't say *perfect illusion*, it says: *perfect illusion that fools the five senses* and that little addition means that it doesn't work on things that aren't the five senses as written.

And every supernatural sense is not *the five senses*, so the charm as it is written in the rulebook can be beaten by anything that has an additional sense.
If it wasn't for Dragon's word that it takes the sight to beat it here, that's what the charm would do.

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No, it says [fools ALL the five senses].
The ALL is important, because it makes it clear what the intent is. If it meant to leave a flaw, it would just say [five senses]

That charm you posted literally says the exalts power disguises themselves. The other says take his appearance. Which seems to suggest like the solar charm the Sidereal's charm goes out of its way to mention possible Supernatural sensory effects that might be able to tell something is wrong and then the Abyssal one doesn't specifically only saying it takes on it a perfect disguise of the person's appearance.

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Yes, it literally goes out of its way to actively fake the powers of whatever supernatural she's trying to impersonate, if its a supernatural.
There's a reason why the Sidereal disguise charm is the most powerful disguise charm in the book.

You made a specific claim about how perfect disguise charms come with particular clauses.
So I presented two of them from the core book that dont fit that format.
Charms do not have to be copies of each other.

 

[Degorium]

Terrible how?

From a pure use perspective SGI gives you a fistful of mortals and a resurrection mechanic.

TTON gives the same things, but also has uniform handling for the annoying edge cases we're dealing with and provides an answer to the weaknesses that made SGI a liability.

The cost being that we have to do something more interesting then spending essence and screaming at first use, and if someone kills parts of Molly's soul it hurts until she takes a minute to rub the tension out of a metaphorical muscle.

I'm confused why being stabbed in the soul having even mild and temporary consequences is such a deal breaker here. We don't even want them for combat, and the thing has built in options for improving survivability.

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Nothing practical. The being stabbed in the soul having consequences is fine. SGI is meant to also provide disposable muscle that shares the same ability line and motivation as the infernal. Just like how you can use them as revives you're also meant to throw their bodies at your enemies after you get a couple days to make a couple of dozen of them. Having five of them is interesting but it's really not what SGI is meant to do. Our playthrough has nothing to do with the actual thematics of the charm. You're not supposed to care about the SGI clones you make them, you equip them, you use them and discard them.

I think at a hard clip. You could probably get to a 100 within 12 days assuming you had a dragon nest. If you had a bit of cash and a attack rating of any kind you would equip them and then you would go out and do whatever you needed to do as a infernal. Your clones will follow because they have the same motivation and dozens of them may die but that Coteire of vampires that killed your family will be gone.

Edit: that is essence one. You can do it considerably faster at any higher essence.

 

[Degorium]

No, it says [fools ALL the five senses].
The ALL is important, because it makes it clear what the intent is. If it meant to leave a flaw, it would just say [five senses]


Yes, it literally goes out of its way to actively fake the powers of whatever supernatural she's trying to impersonate, if its a supernatural.
There's a reason why the Sidereal disguise charm is the most powerful disguise charm in the book.

You made a specific claim about how perfect disguise charms come with particular clauses.
So I presented two of them from the core book that dont fit that format.
Charms do not have to be copies of each other.

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That isn't how English syntax works. A quantitative descriptor does not increase the qualitative qualities of the thing it's describing. If it says five senses or all five senses it's still just means five senses.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Nothing practical. The being stabbed in the soul having consequences is fine. SGI is meant to also provide disposable muscle that shares the same ability line and motivation as the infernal. Just like how you can use them as revives you're also meant to throw their bodies at your enemies after you get a couple days to make a couple of dozen of them. Having five of them is interesting but it's really not what SGI is meant to do. Our playthrough has nothing to do with the actual thematics of the charm. You're not supposed to care about the SGI clones you make them, you equip them, you use them and discard them.

I think at a hard clip. You could probably get to a 100 within 12 days assuming you had a dragon nest. If you had a bit of cash and a attack rating of any kind you would equip them and then you would go out and do whatever you needed to do as a infernal. Your clones will follow because they have the same motivation and dozens of them may die but that Coteire of vampires that killed your family will be gone.

Edit: that is essence one. You can do it considerably faster at any higher essence.

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They're not muscle though? The base charm makes them less useful than ghouls.

The essence cap on clones is something I maintained from the base charm; you only get your essence rating in active ones outside of the signature. With it you get another essence rating clones that last until you leave Shintai before disintegrating:

splintered gale inCarnation (•••••)
The Infernal flays herself apart, creating duplicates
of herself.
System: The Infernal spends 5 Essence and
screams, issuing forth a crimson gale that resolves into a perfect copy of herself. This clone comes into the world naked, perfectly loyal to its creator, precisely aware of what it is, and in possession of the same per- sonality and memories as the Infernal. It has the same Traits as the Infernal, but is completely mortal, with no magic of any sort. Alternately, if the Infernal pos- sesses a working uterus, she can use this Charm to im- pregnate herself. This parthenogenetic child will grow up to be a perfect physical duplicate of the Infernal, but is otherwise a normal human being.
The Infernal can have up to her Essence rating in clones alive and active at once. By spending 1 Essence, she can cause a clone within her presence to unravel back into crimson wind which she absorbs, granting her all of the memories the clone accumulated during its existence. If the Infernal wishes, she may re-create specific absorbed clones in the future when using Splintered Gale Incarnation.
If the Infernal should ever die while any of her clones are abroad in the world, her body dissolves into a screaming wind that streams across the world and pours itself into the nearest clone. This destroys the clone's memories and identity as the Infernal takes over its body. Reincarnating in this fashion reduces the Infernal's Essence rating by 1. If this would reduce her to Essence 0, then reincarnation is impossible.
Signature Effect: When the Infernal dons her Shintai form, (Essence rating) clones emerge along- side her when her chrysalis shatters. They don't count against the normal clone limit of Splintered Gale In- carnation, and will vanish into crimson wind when the Shintai form ends; they cannot be reabsorbed. To be clear, these are clones of the Infernal's normal form, not her Shintai body.

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Fair point about the motivations stuff though, I sort of took that as implicit in the nature of the clones, but that should probably be included.