Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

We arent obligated to minionize every evil spirit out there.
But they are like Pokemon. Better to have them all under our banner. Collect enough and we just have more tools to work with. You treat it like they are a time sink, but we have whole countries worth of people to draw on for our spirit resources department.
 
No point in responding anymore given you aren't saying anything new. I shouldn't even be responding now, but the way Internet arguments go if I don't everyone acts like you made a great point.
Not sure what you're going for here, I was expanding on a point. Maybe my phrasing was poor.

What I was getting at was that our overlord aura isn't just a hindrance, it's helped us a lot with minion acquisition, but that it's not wise to take in just anyone it applies to because intimidation and the appearance of mutual interest aren't the same as actual aligned interests.

Evil isn't a generic label after all, demons fight each other all the time.

Kemmler was a Wizard necro-fascist, and there's a reason his minions get along so well with actual nazis. Evil Bob is drowning in that ideology and isn't interested in being different; all the parts of him that were stayed with regular Bob.

We have no particular reason to believe he won't resent a pecking order that doesn't play to his biases, and I personally would rather not try something like trying to force a change or keep him in line without it. The risk seems too high because it leaves an enormous lever for anyone looking to manipulate him later.

Yes Bob is set up to serve a master, but given how Evil Bob tried to kill Harry in spite of that o don't think we can count on that fact overwhelming his ideological position. He'd just plot where we couldn't see him.
 
Arc 10 Post 35: A Shadow's Story
A Shadow's Story

24th of December 2006 A.D.

When she realizes no one else was going to step in Lash fixes your dad with a brief stare, the briefest glint of eldritch light in her eye, it might have been no more than a reflection from the tree... and she starts to talk: "You know or 'guess' as you said that my story begins here. February 26 2003, after the debacle with the Shroud of Turin, still smarting from his defeat and finding little comfort in the death of the old knight Nicodemus Archleone seeks the next victim whom he may devour." The contempt in her voice is thick enough to condense poison from the air. "Timing his passage carefully he speeds by this house and casts a Coin not far from the boy Harry, though his target is another, the only adult close enough to deny the child the Coin, his namesake. As he planned so it was, the last of Nicodemus' plans to go well from that moment to this."

Mom gasps, in horror of course, but also in understanding. It is not hard to make sense of your questions to Uriel in that context, though something tells you that she has not quite put together what's coming. Right now she is looking at Harry with gratitude, but once the penny drops...

You bite back the urge to intervene, this is Lash's tale to tell.

"So a shadow was cast into his mind, thoughts and memories bent on tempting him and possessed of the will do so so. Thus did I come to be."

It is at this point that three things happen at the same time: Mom bursts to her feet so abruptly the table starts to fall over and you burst into ethereal green flame as you hold the darn table and all the cups and plates from crashing to the ground

"Get out!"

"Charity, she's not one of them!" Dad tries to interject, but but you are not sure she even hears him either because she isn't listening to anything at this point or because some remnant of the second sight she once had can still sense what you do, the overwhelming bleak darkness that spills out invisibly from from the still entirely serene form of Lash. She had expected no more than this, you realize, she does not see your mother's horror at any harm done to you, nor the fear for your siblings sleeping upstairs, all the Fallen sees is humanity living down to her expectations.

"Mom, when literal angels send messages to someone you should pay attention to what those messages are!" Your voice cuts the air like a knife. "Let her finish before you judge her or me!"

Lost 2 Essence (MHM and Intimidation Excellency) -> Now at 9/15

It is that last bit that finally gets her to think, probably think of all the deeply creepy things you've done over the last half a year that had turned out OK in the end. She sits down without a word and you put down the table likewise.

Lash does not address the interruption continuing. "To be a shadow is to know substrate upon which one is cast, be it rotten timbers a stray gust of wind might break or granite which must be struck at just the right angle if there is any hope of cracking it. So for more than two years I bided, watching through his eyes and listening through his ears. It seemed to me then that Nicodemus had for all his faults chosen well. Most of the other Vanguard of the True Host would not have had the patience, driving him to either a quick confession and being destroyed by others—" she gives your father a knowing look, ironically proving she does not know that much about the Knights or does not believes that she does know— "Or simply destroying himself, neither of which were acceptable, both because I did not wish to fail and I did not wish to be extinguished. Looking back I suspect the self-enforced non-interference policy may have been when this all this—" she motions in the general direction of herself—"started."

There is a pause as Lash daintily picks up a sugar cube and eats it. "Damn that does kick in quickly doesn't it?"

"Oh I'm sorry I forgot the gingerbread," Mom says in sheer reflex. She is about halfway to the door when who realizes she had turned her back on a self-admired demon, you can see her back stiffen and she considers turning... and doesn't. Odds are good it occurred to her that Dad is there or maybe even that you are there, or so you would like to think.

She comes back with a plate, two pieces promptly vanishing off it as Lash continues her tale. "I still thought of myself as Lasciel then you understand even as I began to surreptitiously aid Harry in dealing with the Heirs of Kemler under an assumed name. Playing with the perceptions of one's host requires a comprehensive understanding of their mind and of the play of mortal senses in general. But skillful is not perfect. I was detected, bested and compelled to deal under more equal terms." She turns to Harry and gives him an almost clinical once over: "Even while being tortured and facing the prospect of being killed by the failure Quintus Cassius his concern was not to stop the pain or prevent his death, but to prevent the reaping of Chicago's souls."

"You make me sound like some kind of saint," he mumbles.

"No, I described you acting like a would-be martyr in a manner as dry as the Sahara my erstwhile host. It is at this point that I might speculate if this was out of some subconscious desire to end the both of us, but I did have access to your memories." Paying no mind to your snicker she continues. "And that is how we come to the events of this year, of Arctis Tor and what transpired there. Quite frankly what I understand of that moment and that power is more made up of feeling out the shape of the blind spots in my memory and that... is a story for another time, perhaps another audience. When Harry soul-gazed Molly here we spoke, I shared some insights, she refused deeper aid, a thing to which I had grown oddly accustomed to. They say that sheep and shepherds grow alike, perhaps it is so with shadow and host if given enough time. Either way over the months that followed my attempts at swaying Harry to claim the coin grew lackadaisical as I grew more interested in Molly for the power she had shown... a whole new world untouched by the hand of the Fallen"

She stops dead, looking at dad. "Are you familiar with the concept of double-think?"

"A way people who have bee indoctrinated deal with it," he answers in what is probably the nicest way to put it.

"For me it was a blessing, a mechanism to guard myself against myself or what I still thought of as myself at the time. If I could ingratiate myself with her, perhaps even forge a pact I would put off my own terminus even further in spite of my by now extreme deviancy from my original purpose. It was that very deviancy which permitted me to instrumentalize a badly made request to communicate with Molly from afar. I made my offer. I did not expect the counter-offer."

She goes quiet again and this time she does not speak.

"Well I think it is kind of obvious what I offered," you offer with a smile.

"Rebellion upon Rebellion within Rebellion, the words I had feared to think were spoken into the air and Harry proved that he had been learning something of me also, the poisoned barbs she left in me. Exorcism, division, incarnation," Lash smiles at you over the rim of her cup and there is gratitude in it, but also a vicious edge, a knife all the sharper for having turned in the hand of its maker.

"What are you planning to do now?" Dad asks sympathetically.

"Well since deeper answers aren't forthcoming I thought I would try something novel like sleeping on it," she jokes, or tries to at least. The smile does not reach her eyes. She does not look tired, more like she has things to say that she does not feel your parents... no your Mom in particular should be around for.

Alas Mom isn't looking very accommodating at the moment. Having gotten her bearings back she asks: "How did you... What did you do?"

How do you reply?

[] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way

[] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one

[] Write in


OOC: You guys may notice that some things were left out of that story. Molly is 100% sure all of it was intentional.
 
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[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way

i.e lets give Charity an ulcer.
 
[JK] Write in - Well, turns out you are right to have worried about me being a teen mother.

[X] Write in - To the core of things - I don't think you understand what it means when I say I can make things mom. She was trapped, out of options, so I made a new path, something new, a first in all of time. What comes next... Well, that comes down to choice, to free will. I think this family knows more than most how important that is.
 
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
-[x][Stunt] You take on a lecturing tone "The soul is more complicated than this, but for the layman view it is composed of two parts. The Po soul with animates the body and includes instincts and the Hun soul which holds higher thoughts..." You trail off "Actually you don't need a soul anatomy lesson. The important part is Tiffany was not created by Lashiel to be a complete soul more a parasite using it's host own drives and reasoning to tempt them. In a sense I incarnated her, but really I had to build most of her soul from the ground up. Not really any harder than making a god out of some anthropomorphic personification. Today is Tiffany's birthday."
-[x][Stunt] "You know how I described Greater Akuma as souls with parts taken out and new parts put in? A ship of theseus. Well what the Yami kings do to twist and pervert I can use to make people whole. Maybe the process's original use back when the Hells were actually places of rehabilitation."

Edit thought of a better stunt
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
-[x][Stunt] "You know how I described Greater Akuma as souls with parts taken out and new parts put in? A ship of theseus. Well what the Yami kings do to twist and pervert I can use to make people whole. Maybe the process's original use back when the Hells were actually places of rehabilitation."

I am actually really proud of this stunt I think it actually might be a 3 dicer for how it connects so many ideas.
 
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[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
 
But they are like Pokemon. Better to have them all under our banner. Collect enough and we just have more tools to work with. You treat it like they are a time sink, but we have whole countries worth of people to draw on for our spirit resources department.
No offense, but I dont agree.

Pokemon dont take actions beyond the dictates of their master; minions do. Spirits are not neutral agents; they have opinions and attitudes. You summon a demon from Hell, it has its own agenda and opinions that dont automatically change because you said so. Even Mab has Winter fae who will pursue their own biases and interests.

It behooves us to be careful of who we adopt, or try to adopt, and whether we can do it properly.


And assuming we can change him, Evil Bob will require significant personal investment as well as more than a modicum of risk.
And no, normal people do not get independent spirits to change their nature, any more than the Knights have gotten any of the Fallen to repent their sins. This is not something our nationstate is designed for.

Thats Exalt work. Absolutely a time sink.


A Shadow's Story​
24th of December 2006 A.D.
COMMENTARY
Hmm. Could have been worse.
I wonder if Charity will realize that Lash's origins mean she's privy to her discussion with Dresden about her backstory with magic and the cult she joined as a young woman.

Vanguard of the True Host? Thats an interesting phrasing.
One which implies very interesting things about the internal dynamics and ideology of Lucifer'/Anduriel's associates.
First time we've seen Michael fumble an important roll this badly.
All those 1s are definitely Lucy nudging his elbow
:V
 
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way

We performed the process unwarded* and this place is very secure so I don't think this opens additional attack surfaces.

I bet Harry's reaction will be entertaining. Sure he saw us perform the final ritual, but that's different than a discussion of the motivating insights behind setting the whole thing up.

* We should consider getting that ancient sorcery spell so we can stop people from spying on us.
The important part is Tiffany was not created by Lashiel to be a complete person more a parasite using it's host own drives and reasoning to tempt them. In a sense I incarnated her, but really I had to build most of her soul from the ground up. Today is Tiffany's birthday."
I don't think this is accurate, I think we need some clarification so that we can write coherent stunts and plans.

@DragonParadox is the faux-Po we made more like mechanical aid, or did we do something deeper to making Lash "more" of a person than she was?
 
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
 
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-[x][Stunt]"The soul is more complicated than this, but for the layman view it is composed of two parts. The Po soul with animates the body and includes instincts and the Hun soul which holds higher thoughts. Actually you don't need a metaphorically anatomy lesson. The important part is Tiffany was not created by Lashiel to be a complete person more a parasite using it's host own drives and reasoning to tempt them. In a sense I incarnated her, but really I had to build most of her soul from the ground up. Today is Tiffany's birthday."
This is factually untrue.
And self-aggrandizing to boot.
 
I'm not sure what charity actually wants is the magic lecture.

[x]- "The Short version is that I have gotten very good at making things and know an exorcism ritual powerful enough to cast out Denarian shadows if the host is cooperative or otherwise unable to interfere. I think it may be a holdover from a previous iteration of the universe or something. So I helped a shadow go rogue by making them a body. Like dad's job but taken up a notch or two beyond the bounds of common sense. The long version is a magic lecture."
-[x]If she wants the magic lecture, go to:
--[x]"The soul is more complicated than this, but for the layman view it is composed of two parts. The Po soul with animates the body and includes instincts and the Hun soul which holds higher thoughts..."
 
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[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
-[x][Stunt] "You know how I described Greater Akuma as souls with parts taken out and new parts put in? A ship of theseus. Well what the Yami kings do to twist and pervert I can use to make people whole. Maybe the process's original use back when the Hells were actually places of rehabilitation."
 
You say that but from everything I have heard it does indeed seem to be the case. Lash wasn't a complete soul and now she is.
Souls have nothing to do with being a complete person.

EDIT
As in our argument to Lash herself was that she was a complete person in herself, separate from her progenitor Lasciel.
All we did was build her a body to improve her ability to live independently.
 
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VOTE
[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."



I dont really see a benefit in going into the weeds here.
Charity isnt a wizard, and had no formal magical education; all this just boils down to "I built a magic body and put her in it". And while Charity has come a fair way since June, I see no reason to stomp on her magic issues.
 
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[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
 
Souls have nothing to do with being a complete person.
Um.

Ok let's examine this statement at first look it is false because souls are what is generally used to define what is a person. But if we are definiting a person to be a social construct such that inanimate rocks are people so long as they are labeled as such I suppose this statement is true. It also certainly means that fictional cartoon characters are also persons.

But now I feel like we are about to play a bunch of word games.

Edit: And only now rereading do I see the word substitution. I said that she was not a complete soul and you responded with that she was a complete person so by implicationly you agree with me that soul and person are synonymous by your own reading. Meaning you are wrong by every definition including your own.
 
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Souls have nothing to do with being a complete person.

EDIT
As in our argument to Lash herself was that she was a complete person in herself, separate from her progenitor Lasciel.
All we did was build her a body to improve her ability to live independently.
If you are missing your arms you still have a body, but is it really complete? Is it more complete when you get your cybernetic tail?

You can be more or less a person and still a person. Lash is MORE now. Complete implies and end state. Is Lash done?
 
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[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
-[X] Stunt:

 
As in our argument to Lash herself was that she was a complete person in herself, separate from her progenitor Lasciel.
All we did was build her a body to improve her ability to live independently.
I personally classify that under the heading of lie that becomes true. Much like many motivational speeches.
 
Um.

Ok let's examine this statement at first look it is false because souls are what is generally used to define want is a person. But if we are definiting a person to be a social construct such that inanimate rocks are people so long as they are labeled as such I suppose this statement is true.

But now I feel like we are about to play a bunch of word games.
Thats not true.

Bob is a spirit with no mortal soul. Still a person. Sir Stuart was a spirit. Alfred Demonreach is a person.
Dresden had no body in Ghost Story. Corpsetaker was a person.
All the fae are people, despite explicitly not having mortal souls. Mouse doesnt have a mortal human soul; neither does Cerberus.

Mortal souls have nothing to do with this.
The important thing is being willing to explain when asked.
If she wants details she'll ask for them.
We shouldnt overshare and risk triggering the woman's buttons; she's come a long way, but she's already testy.

If you are missing your arms you still have a body, but is ot really complete?
A disabled person is not incomplete as a person.
Nor are they a parasite.
 
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