Mixing the metaphor. What is a complete body? It is not a clean line. Neither is a soul.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I'm inclined to agree, Charity is flabbergasted and simply wants what we did in our own words.
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
fictionfan
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But I think she would also appreciate a bit of reassurance that we have not in fact incarnated a evil fallen angel to wreak havoc in the world. So implying a certain amount of transformation from the process seems like a good idea. Especially when it is in fact true.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
@fictionfan Sure I'll go with your stunt for now.
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
-[x][Stunt] "You know how I described Greater Akuma as souls with parts taken out and new parts put in? A ship of theseus. Well what the Yami kings do to twist and pervert I can use to make people whole. Maybe the process's original use back when the Hells were actually places of rehabilitation."
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
-[x][Stunt] "You know how I described Greater Akuma as souls with parts taken out and new parts put in? A ship of theseus. Well what the Yami kings do to twist and pervert I can use to make people whole. Maybe the process's original use back when the Hells were actually places of rehabilitation."
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Here are some relevant prior quotes on what we did:
Our whole argument to Lash is that she's was a complete person already. She just wasn't, and still isn't, a human person.
We took the shard of an Angel and connected it to a false Po that is essentially a mechanical construct which translates her spiritual I/O into something her body can interface with.
To my eye it doesn't seem anything like a regular Po, and unlike a human Lash's mind/personality isn't formed by an interaction between her higher and lower souls. Lash the person is only the higher soul, the lower was specifically made to be without will or substance beyond translation so as not to interfere with her.
it's like a spinal column that we connected to a brain in a jar. Adding it or taking it away effects her body, and indirectly her through the experiences having a vessel offers, but it doesn't actually impact her mind directly or change her personhood.
I think it's important we not make an argument insinuating something like that after spending the effort to convince Lash she was a person at the start of this.
What we did has always been described as embodying, the Po stuff is a spiritual nervous system. Or that's my read on it anyway, barring DP giving a more explicit ruling one way or another.
Our whole argument to Lash is that she's was a complete person already. She just wasn't, and still isn't, a human person.
We took the shard of an Angel and connected it to a false Po that is essentially a mechanical construct which translates her spiritual I/O into something her body can interface with.
To my eye it doesn't seem anything like a regular Po, and unlike a human Lash's mind/personality isn't formed by an interaction between her higher and lower souls. Lash the person is only the higher soul, the lower was specifically made to be without will or substance beyond translation so as not to interfere with her.
it's like a spinal column that we connected to a brain in a jar. Adding it or taking it away effects her body, and indirectly her through the experiences having a vessel offers, but it doesn't actually impact her mind directly or change her personhood.
I think it's important we not make an argument insinuating something like that after spending the effort to convince Lash she was a person at the start of this.
What we did has always been described as embodying, the Po stuff is a spiritual nervous system. Or that's my read on it anyway, barring DP giving a more explicit ruling one way or another.
Bob is clear in Ghost Story chapter 35 that he's never had a body or a soul.
Doesnt make him any less a complete person.
And our argument to Lash was that she was already a complete person.
That particular stunt is factually inaccurate in its claims, and inappropriate in its implications.
Then we shouldnt be going into technical details here.
When did we talk to Charity about the Greater Akuma?
I recall talking to Murphy about it, but not to Charity.
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I think the attempt at reaching out is more important than her comprehension of it. Being vague could be an issue if she takes it as us hiding something.
I also think there's something to be said for coloring in our thought processes to Dresden and Lash, while showing the latter we're willing to try to treat mundanes like adults instead of children to coddle.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Fair point.
What do you think of this angle? Too much information, just right?
-[x]"The Short version is that I have gotten very good at making things and know an exorcism ritual powerful enough to cast out Denarian shadows if the host is cooperative or otherwise unable to interfere. Emphasis on Cast out. So I dithered longer than I would have liked due to not being sure what would happen, whether or not to kill her, was I strong enough to kill her if I wanted to, etc. That was why I was asking Uriel about that stuff earlier. Eventually I got good enough at making stuff to make things like her body. So when she tried to get me to get Harry to swear loyalty to me as an insurance policy, that was when I mustered up the nerve to make that counteroffer to help her go rogue. The long version is a magic lecture."
-[x]If she wants the magic lecture, go to:
--[x]"The soul is more complicated than this, but for the layman view it is composed of two parts. The Po soul with animates the body and includes instincts and the Hun soul which holds higher thoughts..."
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I worry more about tripping on one of her negative Intimacies with regards to magic.
Hence my preference not to dwell on it.
Im pretty sure we laid out our thought processes in detail before to Dresden and Lash. Especially with regards to vulnerability.
As for the mundane issue, thats not really something I think we can address here. She's lived in Harry's head for more than three years, and she was there when Charity and Murphy came to Arctis Tor to rescue Molly.
I dont think they fall in the basket of mundane for her.
Lash's divergence from being a limited copy of Laschiel into being an independent entity isn't something that Molly did. It's something Harry did, consciously and unconsciously.
The entity that Lash was may have been further changed by grafting her to a synthetic Po soul, just as when in Exalted a Hun was grafted to a new Po a new person was created even if the Hun preserved its memories.
That's why Domnica's Mantle didn't break the no resurrection rule when used by non-Celestial Exalts.
The entity that Lash was may have been further changed by grafting her to a synthetic Po soul, just as when in Exalted a Hun was grafted to a new Po a new person was created even if the Hun preserved its memories.
That's why Domnica's Mantle didn't break the no resurrection rule when used by non-Celestial Exalts.
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Uju I don't actually feel the need to lightly tread with this one I imagine she would appreciate a straightforward answer even if it would trigger a negative intimacy.
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
[X] In Detail: Physics says this table and the flames in that fireplace are the same, my memories say this table those flames and the soul are the same. Break things down enough, build them up the right way
I was going more for something along these lines:
[]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
You are missing my point conflating bodies, souls, and personhood when what I am making is a statement about completeness and how it is inherently a fuzzy concept. Things are complete when they are done.
fictionfan
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- Tempe, AZ
But of course the nature of personhood is debated and debatable. For example Corpse Taker likely didn't think of herself as being an entirely new person every time she took a new body even though her doing the taking using a death curse heavily implies that was what was happening*.
You can say that Molly has been a different person ever since an Exaltion was grafted to be part of her soul. Now we don't choose to think that is the case, but it is exactly that a choice. The concept of identity is fuzzy enough that saying that this Tiffany is the same person as Lash is shrug and if we were to say that they are exactly the same person we would be lieing.
*As Bob said in this quest it takes a very twisted thinking to think like that.
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OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I like.
[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
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Molly would have been aware of this, and I don't think she'd have presented it to Lash as being embodied if it was actually making a new person who simply thought she was Lash.
VOTE
[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
[X] Be vague: I can make magic constructs, I did that except I put Lash in one
[X]STUNT: You waggle your fingers. "Short version? I've gotten really good at building stuff over the last couple months, mom. So after I got her out of Harry's head, I built her a magic body." You make a show at a nonchalant shrug."Seemed the Christian thing to do. Dad knows better than me, but Im guessing her....progenitor and its associates are not the sort of people to react well to a resignation letter." You pause, then your voice hardens. "Or an escaped slave."
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Personhood is vague and fuzzy. Enough so that both can be the same and true as the same time. As Bob says people get far too hung up on it.
Which is interesting because Corpsetaker was actually swapping bodies, switching the soul (or part thereof) previously in her new body into her old one.
Was she killing and creating two people?
What a proto-Primordial thinks about identity might be interesting, given that it would be informed by alien instincts as well as human philosophy/theology.
For example, some might say a reincarnation of a Hun soul into a new body with a new Po, even without continuity of memories is the same person, another might say that it's not.
This seems like a 'reasonable people may disagree' issue.
Or Molly leaning into mad sorcery a bit much and thinking more about can she do something that should she…
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Now I am now imagining halfway through the conversation Molly looking over at Shadow/Lash/Tiffany and saying "I just realized now that I was assuming that Lash had a good knowledge of souls and knew what she was agreeing to, but now I am not so sure. It seems like information Lashiel might have withheld to stop this sort of thing from happening."
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One does have to wonder from the inside what is the difference between changing the circumstances of an old person and making a new one who thinks it is the same? I mean both have continuity of consciousness so it feels more like a semantic conversation about which experiences are more real. Were Lash's experiences fake when she was using Harry's Po soul to help generate them than when she was using her own?
Anyway philosophy aside, good night guys, see you tomorrow with Christmas with the Carpenters.
Anyway philosophy aside, good night guys, see you tomorrow with Christmas with the Carpenters.
Philosophically maybe, but not if it's established enough as a field to engineer them like it is for Molly.
You're the one pushing really hard for a very specific interpretation that marks Lash as incomplete for not having elements her type of creature didn't actually need to function and assigning properties we deliberately didn't include (as far as I can tell anyway) to the spiritual aspects of the body we made.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I am accurately saying that Molly has been modifying Lash proto soul and giving implications that might stop Charity from thinking that we have incarnated a demon.
It also makes redemption a bit easier if Tiffany believes it.
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