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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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mastigos said:
Could the charm please be added to the character sheet so I can have context for the discussions about it?
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Constructive Convergence of Principles (•••••)

The Infernal visits a deep place between nightmare and inspiration, and there she glimpses the dim shape of a horror with which to shake the pillars of Heaven. She casts her vision into the teeth of impossibility and shatters them with her Essence, laying bare a path to make the impossible real. Everything past that is just putting in the work.

System: This Charm allows the character to create Talismans and Devices (see M20, starting on p. 651). The character first envisions a magical item or product of impossible science of some kind, from a suit of armor adorned with hellfire to a database which catalogues and indexes the sins of all who come in contact with it. The character then spends a period of time working out the principles necessary to create the Wonder. This is an extended Intelligence + (Occult, Science, Technology, or just possibly Computer) roll against difficulty 9, made at one week intervals, and needing to accumulate a total of three times the Wonder's rating in successes. The Exalt must spend 2 Essence each time she makes this roll. A botch at any point forces the Infernal to start over and doubles the necessary number of successes.

Once she designs the Wonder, the Exalt must then create it herself – likely an extended Craft or Technology roll. Some projects, it should be noted, while technically within the scope of the Exalt's imagination, may be extremely difficult or even impossible to actually create. Are orbital space bases that double as giant city-killing lasers awesome? Yes. Can the Exalt dream up the design for such a thing? Possibly. Can she actually build all of the parts? It would take billions of dollars, decades of solo labor, and then the Infernal would have to solve the problem of actually getting all those parts into space and assembled in zero gravity. It might be better to stick to something like a gun that shoots tiny, carnivorous demon worms that eat their targets from the inside out.

At any rate, having crafted her Wonder, the Infernal must perform a rite to defile it and thereby charge it with her Essence, activating its miraculous properties online. This requires (Wonder's rating) hours of work or ritual, and the expenditure of (Wonder's rating x 5) Essence. Because of the high Essence cost of this Charm, it is most easily performed within Dragon Nests.
 
Of course there's also Holden's system(Prodigies/Arcana/Gadgets/Splendors)that supercedes CCOP for game balance reasons which some of the thread had issues with.
 
Yog said:
How are, say, Porter's abilities to manipulate his environment, modeled? Bane seems to work under the "use mortal who has access to path as part of creation ritual". I guess we could have Harry involved in all the rituals, as a full wizard he probably works for most paths (even Hellfire). In general, I running into an issue of modeling a genius loki with ability to manipulate their environment using Arcana system.

EDIT: In regards to question 1 - typo in which direction? Either is possible in my opinion. It's quite clear that Holden made 1 dot list, then copy-pasted it and edited to make a 2 dot list, etc. So, he could have forgotten to edit it for 4 and 5 dots, meaning that they should have 21 point, or he could have typed 21 for some reason for 3 dot version.
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Porter is the earth around him so he can shape if freely, a mortal could not use power as he does since they are apart from nature. Molly's arcana would also be apart from nature since they are a part of Molly... who is distinct.

Anyway Vote closed
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 5, 2023 at 11:07 AM, finished with 123 posts and 23 votes.
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DragonParadox said:
Porter is the earth around him so he can shape if freely, a mortal could not use power as he does since they are apart from nature. Molly's arcana would also be apart from nature since they are a part of Molly... who is distinct.
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Are all Emanations Molly makes a part of her? I thought this was god forging. I mean, if we are making a house god like Bane (only more powerful), ie a genius loci, how do we model this mechanically? As a possible solution this would be something like a variant of Emanation Arcana feature, where if the keystone used for Arcana creation is a place / dwelling, Arcana gets some manner of influence upon it.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 5, 2023 at 11:07 AM, finished with 123 posts and 23 votes.
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Arc 10 Post 3: Weird Tastes
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    • Weird Tastes ​

    29th of November 2006 A.D.

    Briefly, very briefly you are tempted to ask the shadow some of the same questions you asked Uriel. She might not have the same insight, but by her very nature she does not have to follow the same rules. Then an inward start... The thing that brings you up short is not 'I am thinking of how to take advantage of the Fall', but rather imagining what Harry would think of you having his conversation behind his back. "I want you to come clean to Harry.," you proclaim with a soft smile that probably looks downright beatific.

    "Fine, fine, if you want to show off," she mock grumbles.

    Leaning on the table you ask in spite of yourself: "What do you mean?"

    "Well, that is how it's going to go isn't it? You bring him in here, he starts arguing about how dangerous this is and tells you to clean off the crystal, or tries to do it himself, you read him like he's an old copy of Cosmo someone left in the airport waiting room and then we all take off to whatever flight you choose." She enunciates the words with an accent like a villain in a James Bond movie. "Show off."

    "Nine days ago," you say, swallowing the jolt of unease as you take out a trio of bottles out of your pocket and setting them in the table.. "Couldn't get him to take payment for this antivenom."

    "And you were annoyed by that," she tries to redirect.

    "Yeah," you tilt your head to the side, like you think she is being silly. "If I did not think he deserved payment I would not have offered it to him."

    "That's... you know what I mean!" You try not to take too much joy out of the frustration in that tone.

    "I know what you are trying to imply, haven't quite figured out why," you asnwer airily. "I have a lot of theories, but none of them are one hundred percent right, probably. I haven't figured out how much of you is form and how much is color. "

    "That's a relief at least." she mutters and you are not sure what it says about you that you can fill in the blanks 'someone who does not mean everything they say and says everything they mean'. She is not going to ask you to clarify though, that would be admitting defeat

    After phoning Harry to come down to the station you spend the next hour just playing word games to entertain shadow-Lasciel, not about anything or anyone important. Mostly it comes down to cars, she is a snob for obscure 1920s cars out of Indianapolis of all places. And ho boy does she have opinions about those overpriced would be Rolls Royce...

    ***​

    "I don't care how smooth you say the thing works wet sump, full pressure lubrication is liable to spike the pressure when you start up the engine which damages it and there goes your 0 to 60 in what was it 8.6 seconds? Yeah add the fifteen minutes to warm up the engine to that."

    "Now you are being obtuse and you know it!"

    "You are the one who insisted the thing be judged in the context of the era. Well there we go. If I don't know Gloria Swanson needed to get on set in a hurry how fast the overly glamorized buggy gets moving is important..."

    You cut off the thought as you notice Harry standing in the door seemingly at a loss for words. "Hi Harry, someone put a communication line in the Jade and she asked me to do something. I said I'd consider it if she was up front with you."

    "That's..." He shakes his head. "You know what no, I apologize, let me break the connection then we'll talk."

    The shadow does not speak. It's your move to convince Harry that you having a line to the Fallen Angel in his head is a good idea. What arguments do you make.

    What argument to you make?

    [] Maybe if you can figure out what makes the shadow tick you can get it out of Harry's head (Charisma+Subterfuge to lie since you can remove her right now)

    [] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )

    [] Offer an exorcism right now

    [] Write in

    OOC: A bit of a short update, but this needs a vote.
     
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    • [x]"Lash wanted me to convince you to swear felty to me because she is worried about you dieing and her by extension. However I have a counter offer. Lash swears felty to me and I pluck her out of you head and put her in a body all her own."

    Incidentally we are talking in our dragon nest Molly is all full up on essanse again right?
     
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    [] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy)

    There's possibly a better write-in version of this, but the important part is there. Start giving Lash a chance to prove herself, but without removing her from Harry.
     
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    Anaja said:
    [X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy)

    There's possibly a better write-in version of this, but the important part is there. Start giving Lash a chance to prove herself, but without removing her from Harry.
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    I don't like that argument because Molly is going to get a charm which allows us to spin off subsouls which we recombine with. Yes the charm is better than what the Fallen angels do because our clones have perfect loyalty and bodies of there own, but I don't really want to make this argument.

    I actually think that Lash is in a weird way a subsoul of Dresden rather than Lashiel.
     
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    [x]"Lash wanted me to convince you to swear felty to me because she is worried about you dieing and her by extension. However I have a counter offer. Lash swears felty to me and I pluck her out of you head and put her in a body all her own."
     
    Ok, so whatever we say, Lash will hear. Ok then.

    [X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )
    -[X] Use excellency
    -[X] Using information you got from Uriel, and your own understanding of how souls work, back your argument up with facts
    --[X] Occult Excellency

    We are better at Empathy mechanically, and Lash likely specializes in Subterfuge, and we are not just talking to Harry, but also to her. And the whole thing is about honesty. Also, can we just spend a willpower point for a +1 success at anything? If so, I think we should spend one here.
     
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    Yog said:
    Ok, so whatever we say, Lash will hear. Ok then.

    [X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )
    -[X] Use excellency
    -[X] Using information you got from Uriel, and your own understanding of how souls work, back your argument up with facts
    --[X] Occult Excellency

    We are better at Empathy mechanically, and Lash likely specializes in Subterfuge, and we are not just talking to Harry, but also to her. And the whole thing is about honesty.
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    You could seal away the talisman. As far as Molly understands it the thing has relatively limited senses. Heck, you could just go into another room.
     
    [X] Yog

    If we wanted to properly do subterfuge, we shouldn't have informed Harry in the first place. Also, I think Lash might actually serve us best inside Harry right now, by helping to keep him alive. Getting her own body should be a long-term reward.
     
    [X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )
    -[X] Use excellency
    -[X] Using information you got from Uriel, and your own understanding of how souls work, back your argument up with facts
    --[X] Occult Excellency
     
    fictionfan said:
    I don't like that argument because Molly is going to get a charm which allows us to spin off subsouls which we recombine with. Yes the charm is better than what the Fallen angels do because our clones have perfect loyalty and bodies of there own, but I don't really want to make this argument.
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    I'm pretty sure they can do the proper subsoul thing but are not allowed. Fallen and not fallen angels operate under a lot of restrictions. Even when Denarians are using coins they are still sandbagging hard. Part of it is due to their hosts not being able to take their power at higher levels but a good chunk of it is rules.
     
    [X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )
    -[X] Use excellency
    -[X] Using information you got from Uriel, and your own understanding of how souls work, back your argument up with facts
    --[X] Occult Excellency

    And here we have the better write-in version.
     
    Something worth considering here, there's actually a simple way for us to hold a soul/spirit essence outside of a body without picking a permanent solution immediately:


    Essence Vessel (•)
    An Essence Vessel usually takes the form of a carved gemstone about the size of a baby's fist, or else an intricately-constructed mirror box inlaid with tiny gems and gold filigree—in either case, the raw materials for its construction require Resources •••• or the willingness to commit a few crimes. The Vessel, uniquely for a one-dot Prodigy, doesn't require attunement, but must still be used by one of the Chosen. It can be activated in the moments immediately following a monster's destruction by spending 1 Essence. The monster's dispersing supernatural powers and soul (if it has one) are drawn into the Essence Vessel and trapped there. The monster's image can sometimes be dimly glimpsed in the depths of the Essence Vessel. An Essence Vessel can only hold one monster's essence at a time. This is generally used as a catalyst for magical item crafting, but could also potentially be given to a mage for use in ritual sorcery, or simply "dumped out" through the expenditure of another point of Essence to free up the Vessel to capture a more lucrative target.
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    It does require an exalt to use the thing in the base form, but the base rules let us do away with that for a 1 point price increase. I'd like to keep it locked to us for while Lash is in it, but if we needed to it's possible to make one Harry can control. Hell, we could add attunement back as a security feature so only be can use it.


    For the long term fix I think the inverse of an exalt thing sounds cool, but I don't trust Lash with that power. I'd prefer seeing if we can make her into an emanation without destroying her. That would have the benefit of letting us maintain the relationship that's reforming her character by building her into a primarily intangible partner for Harry while still giving her a way to interact with the world herself.


    ——
    As an aside, @DragonParadox are you going with us needing souls as crafting catalysts for some things, or is the phrasing of this clause enough of a loophole to work with:

    It can be activated in the moments immediately following a monster's destruction by spending 1 Essence. The monster's dispersing supernatural powers and soul (if it has one) are drawn into the Essence Vessel and trapped there.
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    It says both, but also establishes the idea that the supernatural power is separate from the soul itself.

    Could we set up a variant of these to strip the power from a soul as it departs and bottle that up for our use instead of taking and utilizing the whole thing? Sort of like how it was possible for Dresden's magic to be eaten off of his without actually destroying or trapping his entire soul. Or what the Naagoloshi can do when being careful eaters.
     
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