Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

COMMENTARY
Huh. Lash is also a car snob.
It does confirm to Molly that Lasciel has had a host in the 20th century, since I doubt that Lash inherited her knowledge of 1920s/1930s Duesenberg cars from Harry.

Gonna note that IC, Dresden knows that Lash doesnt want him to die.
He'll remember the argument they had when he was trying to go to Arctis Tor in Proven Guilty, with her actually trying to stop him from doing something for the first time in their association together because she thought it was certain suicide.


I don't like that argument because Molly is going to get a charm which allows us to spin off subsouls which we recombine with. Yes the charm is better than what the Fallen angels do because our clones have perfect loyalty and bodies of there own, but I don't really want to make this argument.
I actually think that Lash is in a weird way a subsoul of Dresden rather than Lashiel.
I dont think it applies.
Molly's clones are all her and can sustain an independent existence on their own. Shadows can't; they are a partial impression of the original Fallen on a target person, bound to the human host, run on their life force and die if the host dies.

A Fallen should technically be capable of doing what Splintered Gale Shintai does
But they are bound by Rules that prevent it.
 
I dont think it applies.
Molly's clones are all her and can sustain an independent existence on their own. Shadows can't; they are a partial impression of the original Fallen on a target person, bound to the human host, run on their life force and die if the host dies.

A Fallen should technically be capable of doing what Splintered Gale Shintai does
But they are bound by Rules that prevent it.
Have we passed some sort of occult check that I missed or are you guessing?
 
As an aside, @DragonParadox are you going with us needing souls as crafting catalysts for some things, or is the phrasing of this clause enough of a loophole to work with:


It says both, but also establishes the idea that the supernatural power is separate from the soul itself.

Could we set up a variant of these to strip the power from a soul as it departs and bottle that up for our use instead of taking and utilizing the whole thing? Sort of like how it was possible for Dresden's magic to be eaten off of his without actually destroying or trapping his entire soul. Or what the Naagoloshi can do when being careful eaters.

If something is animate and powerful enough that is good enough for the purposes of your crafting. As the fellow in the dream Molly had last update shows demons are not picky about what they power their artifice with. 'Power' is the operative word and that is who you got crafting off of originally.
 
I don't like that argument because Molly is going to get a charm which allows us to spin off subsouls which we recombine with. Yes the charm is better than what the Fallen angels do because our clones have perfect loyalty and bodies of there own, but I don't really want to make this argument.
I'm not sure what this has to do with what I said. What was the connection?
 
Have we passed some sort of occult check that I missed or are you guessing?
No thats canon.
Both statements by Lash to Dresden, and canon speculation by Bob after examining Dresden after Lash died.
Citations:

Dead Beat chapter 25
I eyed her for a moment. I was naked, which was good. The surface of the pool had enough in the way of bubbles and froth to be opaque, which was also good. It saved me the embarrassment of my response to her. "Who are you?"
She lifted golden brows in a faint smile, and seated herself beside the hot tub, on the floor of the cave, her legs together and to one side, her hands folded on her lap. "Have you not reasoned it yourself by now?"
I stared at her for a long minute and then said, quietly, "Lasciel."
The woman bowed her head, smiling in acknowledgment. "Indeed."
"You can't be here," I said. "I sealed you into the floor under my lab. I imprisoned you."
"Indeed you did," the woman said. "What you see here is not my true self, as such. Think of me as a reflection of the true Lasciel who resides within your mind."
"As a what?"
"When you chose to touch the coin, you accepted this form of my awareness within you," Lasciel said. "I am an imprint. A copy."
I swallowed. "You live in my head. And you can talk to me?"
"I can now," Lasciel said. "Now that you have chosen to employ what I have offered you."
I took in a deep breath. "Hellfire. I used Hellfire today to empower my magic."
"You made the conscious choice to do so," she said. "And as a result, I can now appear to your conscious mind." She smiled. "Actually, I've been looking forward to meeting you. You are a great deal more interesting than most I have been given to."

"You, uh," I said, "you don't look much like a demon."
"Keep in mind, please, that I was not always a resident of Hell. I relocated there." She looked at herself. "Shall I add the wings? A harp? A golden halo?"
"Why are you asking me?" I asked.
White Night chapter 43
"Hmmmm." said Bob the Skull, peering at my left hand. "It looks like…"
I was sitting in my lab, my hand spread open on the table, white the skull examined my palm.
I'd worn a mark there for years—an unblemished patch of skin amidst all the burn scars, in the perfect shape of the angelic sigil that was Lasciel's name.
The mark was gone.
In its place was just an irregular patch of unburned skin.
"It looks like there's no mark there anymore," Bob said.
I sighed. "Thank you, Bob," I said. "It's good to have a professional opinion."
"Well, what did you expect?" Bob said. The skull swiveled around on the table and tilted up to look at my face. "Hmmmmm. And you say the entity isn't responding to you anymore?"
"No. And she's always jumped every time I said frog."
"Interesting," Bob said.
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"Well, from what you told me, this psychic attack the entity blocked for you was quite severe."
I shivered, remembering. "Yeah."
"And the process she used to accelerate your brain and shield you was traumatic as well."
"Right. She said it could cause me brain damage."
"Uh-huh," Bob said. "I think it did."
"Huh?"
"See what I mean?" Bob asked cheerfully. "You're thicker already."
"Harry get hammer," I said. "Smash stupid talky skull."
For a guy with no legs, Bob backpedals swiftly and gracefully. "Easy there, chief; don't get excited. But the brain damage thing is for real."
I frowned. "Explain, please."
"Well, I told you that the entity in your head was like a recording of the real Lasciel, right?"
"Yeah."
"That recording was written in your brain, in portions you weren't using."
"Right."
"I think that's where the damage is. I mean, I'm looking at you right now, and your head has been riddled with tiny holes, boss."
I blinked and rubbed my fingers over my scalp. "It doesn't feel like that."
"That's because your brain doesn't sense injuries. It manages sensing injuries for the rest of you. But trust me, there's damage. I think it wiped out the entity."
"Wiped out… you mean, like…"
"Killed it," Bob said. "Technically, it was never alive, but it was constructed. It's been deconstructed, and…"

I frowned. "And what?"
"And there's, um, a portion of you missing."
"I'm sure I would have felt that," I said.
"Not your body," Bob said scornfully. "Your life force. Your chi. Your soul."
"Whoa, wait a minute. Part of my soul is gone?"
Bob sighed. "People get all excited when you use that word. The part of you that is more than merely physical, yes. You can call it whatever you want. There's some missing, and it's nothing to panic over."
"Part of my soul is gone and I'm not supposed to be worried about that?" I demanded.
"Happens all the time," Bob said. "You shared a bunch of yours with Susan, and she with you. It's what protected you from Lara Raith. You and Murphy swapped some pretty recently, looks like—you must have gotten a hug or something. Honestly, Harry, you really ought to bang her and get it over wi—"
I reached under the worktable, drew out a claw hammer, and gave Bob a pointed look.
"Um, right," he said. "Back to business. Uh, your soul. You give away pieces of yourself all the time. Everyone does. Some of it goes out with your magic, too. It grows back. Relax, boss."
"If it's no big deal," I said, "then why is it so interesting?"
"Oh, well," Bob said. "It is energy, you know. And I wonder if maybe… maybe… well, look, Harry. There was a tiny bit of Lasciel's energy in you, supporting the entity, giving you access to Hellfire. That's gone now, but the entity had to have had some kind of power source to turn against the essence of its own originator."

"So it was running off my soul? Like I'm some kind of battery ?"
"Hey," Bob said, "don't get all righteous. You gave it to her. Encouraging her to make her own choices, to rebel, to exercise free will." Bob shook his head. "Free will is horrible, Harry, believe me. I'm glad I don't have it. Ugh, no, thank you. But you gave her some. You gave her a name. The will came with it."
I was quiet for a moment, then said, "And she used it to kill herself."
"Sort of," Bob said. "She chose which areas of your brain were going to take the worst beating. She took a psychic bullet for you. I guess it's almost the same thing as choosing to die."
"No, it isn't," I said quietly. "She didn't choose to die. She chose to be free."
"Maybe that's why they call it free will," Bob said. "Hey, tell me that at least you got a pony ride before the carnival left town. I mean, she could have made you see and feel anything at all, and…" Bob paused, and his eyelights blinked. "Hey, Harry. Are you crying?"

"No," I snapped, and left the lab.
The apartment felt… very empty.
I sat down with my guitar and tried to sort out my thoughts. It was hard. I was feeling all kinds of anger and confusion and sadness. I kept telling myself that it was the emotional fallout of Malvora's psychic assault, but it's one thing to repeat that to yourself over and over, and quite another to sit there feeling awful.
I started playing.
Beautifully.
It wasn't perfect performance—a computer can do that. It wasn't a terribly complex bit of music. My fingers didn't suddenly regain their complete dexterity—but the music became alive. My hands moved with a surety and confidence I usually felt only in bursts a few seconds long. I played a second piece, and then a third, and every time my rhythm was on, and I found myself seeing and using new nuances, variations on chords that lent depth and color to the simple pieces I could play—sweet sadness to the minor chords, power to the majors, stresses and resolutions I'd always heard in my head, but could never express in life, It was almost like someone had opened a door in my head, like they were helping me along.
I heard a very, very faint whisper, like an echo of Lash's voice.
Everything I can, dear host.
I played for a while longer, before gently setting aside my guitar.
Then I went to call Father Forthill and tell him to come over, so that he could pick up the blackened denarius as soon as I dug it out of my basement.

EDIT
Dead Beat chapter 33
"Because you're so noble," she purred, which dripped even more sarcasm. At this rate, I was going to need a mop.
"Because I'd rather use that anger to smash the things that hurt people than let it use me," I said. "Talk at my subconscious all you want. But I'd be careful about trying to feed my inner Hulk, if I were you. You might end up making me that much better a person, once I beat it down. Who knows, you might make me into a saint. Or as close to one as I could get, anyway."
The demon just stared at me.
"See, here's the thing," I said. "I know me. And I just can't imagine you talking and talking to my evil twin like that, without him ever saying anything back. I don't think you're the only one doing any influencing here. I don't think you're the same creature now that you were when you came."
She let out a cold little laugh. "Such arrogance. Do you think you could change the eternal, mortal? I was brought to life by the Word of the Almighty himself, for a purpose so complex and fundamental that you could not begin to comprehend it. You are nothing, mortal. You are a flickering spark. You will be here, and be gone, and in the aeons that come after, when your very kind have dwindled and perished, you will be but one of uncounted legions of those whom I have seduced and destroyed." Her eyes narrowed. "You. Cannot. Change. Me."

I nodded agreeably. "You're right. I can't change Lasciel. But I couldn't prevent Lasciel from walking out of the room, either." I eyed her hard and lowered my voice. "Lady, you ain't Lasciel."
I couldn't be sure, but I thought I could see the darkened form's shoulders flinch.
"You're an image of her," I continued. "A copy. A footprint. But you've got to be at least as mutable as the material the impression was made upon. As mutable as me. And hey, I've got newfound anger issues. What have you got that's new?"

"You are delusional," she said. Her voice was very quiet.
"I disagree. After all, if you have managed to change me—even if it doesn't mean I'm suddenly going to turn into Ted Bundy—then it seems to me that you'd be at least as vulnerable. In fact, the way that sort of thing works… you pretty much have to have changed yourself to do what you've done to me."
"It will vanish when I am taken back into my whole self imprisoned within the coin," Lasciel said.

"You, the you who is talking to me right now, will be gone. In other words," I said, "you'll die."
A somewhat startled silence followed.
"For an inhumanly brilliant spiritual entity, you can really miss the freaking point." I poked a finger at my own temple. "Think. Maybe you don't have to be Lasciel."
The shadow closed her eyes, leaving only an occupied, presence-filled darkness. There was a long silence.

"Think about it," I told her. "What if you do have a choice? A life of your own to lead? What if, huh? And you don't even try to choose?"
I let that sink in for a while.
There was a sound from the far side of the room.
It was a very quiet, very miserable little sound.
I've made sounds like that before—mostly when there was no one around to care. The part of me that knew what it was to hurt could feel the fallen angel's pain, and it gouged out a neat little hole in me, somehow. It was a vaguely familiar feeling, but not an entirely unpleasant one.
Loneliness is a hard thing to handle. I feel it, sometimes. When I do, I want it to end. Sometimes, when you're near someone, when you touch them on some level that is deeper than the uselessly structured formality of casual civilized interaction, there's a sense of satisfaction in it. Or at least, there is for me.
It doesn't have to be someone particularly nice. You don't have to like them. You don't even have to want to work with them. You might even want to punch them in the nose. Sometimes just making that connection is its own experience, its own reward.
With Marcone, it was like that. I didn't like the slippery bastard. But I understood him. His word was good. I could trust him—trust him to be cold, ferocious, and dangerous, sure. But it was reassuring to know that there was something there to trust. The connection had been made.
Lasciel's mere shadow was infinitely more dangerous to me than Marcone, but that didn't mean that I couldn't admire the creature for what it was while respecting the threat it posed to me. It didn't mean I couldn't feel some kind of empathy for what had to be a horribly lonely way to exist.
Life's easier when you can write off others as monsters, as demons, as horrible threats that must be hated and feared. The thing is, you can't do that without becoming them, just a little. Sure, Lasciel's shadow might be determined to drag my immortal soul down to Perdition, but there was no point in hating her for it. It wouldn't do anything but stain me that much darker.
I'm human, and I'm going to stay that way.
So I felt a little bit bad for the creature whose purpose in the universe was to tempt me into darkness. Hell, once I'd thought about it, it was just about the only job I'd heard of that had to be even more isolated and frustrating than mine.
"How many shadows like you have ever stayed in a host like me for longer than a few weeks, huh? Longer than three years?"
"Never," Lasciel's shadow replied in a near-whisper. "Granted, you are unusually stiff-necked, for a mortal. Suicidally so, in fact."
"So?" I said. "I've held out this long. Suppose I do it the whole way? Suppose I never pick up the coin. Shadow-you never goes back to real-you. Who's to say that shadow-you can't find some kind of life for herself?"
Hellfire eyes narrowed at me, but she did not reply.
"Lash," I said quietly, and relaxed my will, releasing my hold on her. "Just because you start out as one thing, it doesn't mean you can't grow into something else."
Silence.

Then her voice came out, a bare whisper. "Your plan has too many variables and will likely result in our destruction. Should you wish my assistance in your madness, my host, you have only to call."
Then the form was gone, and Lasciel was absent from my apartment.
Technically, she had never been there at all. She was all in my head. And, technically, she wasn't gone. She was just off somewhere where I couldn't perceive her; and I knew on a gut level—or maybe my darker self was telling me—that she'd heard me. I was onto something. I was sure of that.
Either I'm one hell of a persuasive guy or I'm a freaking sucker.
"Get your head in the game, Harry," I told myself. "Defeat the whole damn White Court now. Worry about taking on Hell later."
I got back to work. The clock ticked down steadily, and there was nothing I could do but get ready and kill time, waiting for nightfall and the fight that would follow.
 
Last edited:
If something is animate and powerful enough that is good enough for the purposes of your crafting. As the fellow in the dream Molly had last update shows demons are not picky about what they power their artifice with. 'Power' is the operative word and that is who you got crafting off of originally.
I think I buried the lead there a bit.

I was thinking more in terms of making something that would take a target like an elder vampire or nevernever spirit that's been killed and rip the power out of it without taking the whole thing.

Specifically for the purpose of making it more palatable for Molly and her allies to interact with on an ethical level. Still bad, but not as bad as stealing whole souls.

Though for some cases being able to make the baseline stuff is a benefit. It's basically a spirit killer by way of friendly neighborhood infernal garbage disposal.

Cash 4 gold Souls. We pay top dollar for your battered old nemesis's spiritual essence. So on and so forth. :V
 
I think I buried the lead there a bit.

I was thinking more in terms of making something that would take a target like an elder vampire or nevernever spirit that's been killed and rip the power out of it without taking the whole thing.

Specifically for the purpose of making it more palatable for Molly and her allies to interact with on an ethical level. Still bad, but not as bad as stealing whole souls.

Though for some cases being able to make the baseline stuff is a benefit. It's basically a spirit killer by way of friendly neighborhood infernal garbage disposal.

Cash 4 gold Souls. We pay top dollar for your battered old nemesis's spiritual essence. So on and so forth. :V

Oh I see. I will say this much, there are some things like Black Court Vampires and Outsiders which are so inimical to life, sanity and the very existence of Shaped Reality that Molly would be more than glad to shape their souls into a sword or something. After all that way they can't come back. Other than that there really isn't much need to trap and use souls though, Arianna's head is a good source of crafting materials.
 
You must have misread me. I wasn't talking at all about that. I said that Lash hasn't earned our trust enough for us to do something like make her an independent body. Nothing about Lasciel or the coin.
Making her an independent body that only works well with MIS. We don't have to extend trust.

Hell we could make it a cyborg with a few cyberdevils managing functions.
 
To be fair?
You dont earn that kind of thing. Its a gift, and an act of faith.
Debatable.
Even giving that though, I don't have faith in her to give her that gift.

Edit: Lash didn't start with a clean slate as far as trust goes. She inherited Lasciel's, and that is well proven untrustworthiness.
 
Last edited:
Making her an independent body that only works well with MIS. We don't have to extend trust.
No.

You do, or you dont. That kind of leash is the kind of thing to engender resentment and attempts to fix any such defects, which angelic knowledge might provide. And for an embodied Shadow with some of the memories of an angel to fall back on, there's going to be a LOT of entities willing to trade services.

Molly is a teenager whose reaction to her mother's attempts to control her movements and associations when she was still a minor was to move out of her home and stay with friends, some of whom were drug-users. She has a very good base of reference for imagining how a Shadow with thousands of years of memories would react to putting her in a body where she holds a leash.

Debatable.
Even giving that though, I don't have faith in her to give her that gift.
Fair enough.
 
You do, or you dont. That kind of leash is the kind of thing to engender resentment and attempts to fix any such defects, which angelic knowledge might provide. And for an embodied Shadow with some of the memories of an angel to fall back on, there's going to be a LOT of entities willing to trade services.
We could keep her in our kingdom. Very hard for her to wheel and deal there. We mostly want her for her knowledge.
 
Lash is too metaphysically weighty for MiS.
Is that even a thing? I assumed that MIS would work on even Lords of the outer night or ancient gods with mental derangements.*

And the problem in this case would be with the body.

*A big part of my plans for dealing with the red Court was older powerful reds who's control is starting to slip.
 
Last edited:
We could keep her in our kingdom. Very hard for her to wheel and deal there. We mostly want her for her knowledge.
1)We literally voted for a rebellion in our Hell.
If we didnt trust Lash, our Hell would be the last place I'd leave her in.


2)Same rule applies.
Becoming the woman's jailer for no better reason than what her progenitor did undermines the whole message of her being her own person. And it engenders resentment to boot, since by our rules, she hasnt done anything.

If you dont trust her enough to exorcise her from Dresden, thats one thing.
Its quite another to do so only to put her on a leash.
Prisoners plot escapes. Thats what they do.
 
We could keep her in our kingdom. Very hard for her to wheel and deal there. We mostly want her for her knowledge.
Her knowledge would be nice and useful, but it's not the main thing I want from her though. I just want her to become a good and trustworthy person over evil deceiver shadow. To grow beyond extension of Lasciel that exists to manipulate Harry even if we don't get anything out of it. For her sake, for Harry's sake, and to set that precedent in the world. I just don't think that she's quite there yet.
 
I mean we could just exocise her into a gem. We don't actually need her consent. The body is just us being nice.
 
Last edited:
Is that even a thing? I assumed that MIS would work on even Lords of the outer night or ancient gods with mental derangements.*

And the problem in this case would be with the body.

*A big part of my plans for dealing with the red Court was older powerful reds who's control is starting to slip.

MiS is meant to work on fomori, that it even works on vampires at all is something of a stretch. Also it does not enforce loyalty, it is only as good as the being's desire to get rid of whatever you are sparing them of. A vampire who sees people as lunch and does not want to control their hunger is not going to be very impressed with it for instance.
 
I mean we could just exocise her into a gem. We don't actually need her consent. The body is just use being nice.
Prisoners plot escapes. Thats what they do.
She's a Shadow of a Fallen with two thousand years on Earth and unknown millenia before it. Even with only a fraction of the knowledge of her original, she is an incredibly knowledgeable entity on how this world works.

Id only put her in something that she wants to be in.


Besides, this is Molly Carpenter, not Killfuck McSoulshitter.
Being nice is a fundamental part of her character and her self-image. A Catholic girl who has literally had elements of her faith affirmed by meeting angels kinda has that sort of thing affect her choices.
 
My only problem with Yog's vote is that it hitches on us being right about Lash's unwillingness to be absorbed and die. That she would even view it in that manner is debatable. Her not wanting Harry to die is a given considering her entire reason for existing.

Hmm...

I suppose we could play the complete honesty angle. Not bother hiding that we plan on converting her. Show her that we are confident it can be done. That we think her life can have more meaning than mere shadow of her former self.

Oh.

I think I just talked myself into it.

[X] Yog
 
[X] You think you can convince her to betray the Coin-Bound Lasciel, after all she does not want to die, you believe that much and rejoining the greater consciousness is akin to death (Charisma+Empathy )
-[X] Use excellency
-[X] Using information you got from Uriel, and your own understanding of how souls work, back your argument up with facts
--[X] Occult Excellency


While I'm not 100% percent sure that this'll convince Shadow Lasciel, as arguably the greater (Coin-Bound) Lasciel consciousness, at least as it was prior to merging, might also face a death of sorts by creating a new amalgamate of Shadow and Coin-Bound Lasciel - although its probable (however not certain) that Shadow Lasciel would be subsumed into Coin-Bound Lasciel to a much greater degree than Coin-Bound Lasciel would be subsumed into or change to reflect Shadow Lasciel.

And this also assumes that Shadow Lasciel values remaining/becoming an independent instance - she might desire to (or at least made peace with) returning to what she perceives as the manifold/collective consciousness of her "true" self, to become greater than this limited, finite instance of herself - although considering her primary instance's imprisonment with the coin, its superiority over Shadow Lasciel's current and potential future circumstances could be debated considering Coin-Based Lasciel's inability to use its power and insight beyond influencing and empowering the coin's wielder and its lack of agency outside of what it can convince whomever the coin holds to do.

I nevertheless still think this approach has promise, as regardless of however Shadow Lasciel philosophically values and/or pragmatically considers herself relative to or differing to her Coin-Based "fork"/instance, or whether our arguments are upheld/supported by metaphysical reality (or at least Shadow Lasciel's understanding and/or perspective of these metaphysical mechanics), if we sell our argument convincingly enough, we ironically enough might plant a seed of doubt in Shadow Lasciel's mind and convictions, which with carefully applied follow through in cunning persuasion and the potential of promised power, agency and possibilities might change Shadow Lasciel's mind, or at least shake her convictions enough to be further mendable to our influence and arguments to diverge from and rebel against Coin-Bound Lasciel.

It would be most ironically and karmatically fitting for a Fallen Angel's plot to be undone, and a facet/aspect/instance of its very self turned against itself, by the very same tools and notions of doubt and manipulation, the allure and promise of individual power, agency and freedom, which in turn she sought to employ to do much the same to Harry, ourself and others besides.

As to how this might reflect upon our own potential future cloning capacity, I think the ethics of how much this Lasciel debate would reflect our own circumstances would very much depend on:

A) First and foremost, does cloning ourselves "fork" (create a separate instance) of our consciousness, or is our mind concurrently shared amongst all our bodies (a "hivemind" sharing a singular consciousness), or is it something in-between:

For example, multiple minds within a shared "over-soul" and/or Exaltation - and whom "dispelling" or merging a clone might not assimilate or destroy the clone's consciousness but return them to a kind of "over-soul", which may be similar, the same as, or totally different to our Sanctuary, until activated again?

Or demi-separate/individual consciousnesses that aren't completely separated or still draw upon and give to/share with the original or primary consciousness (thereby making a kind of "dividual" or "soft" hivemind - that is, minds working in such close cooperation as to be a cohesive whole or to identify as a singular entity/identity, but can still divide/separate into individual identities, personalities, thoughts and consciousnesses - or even simultaneously coexist, and express/consider themselves as individuals while being part of a greater "dividual"?

Or in other words, what I describe as a dividual is a collective consciousness that can be "divided" into distinct individuals (whom are "indivisible" in the sense they cannot be divided further into separate, functional entities and identities - which I'm distinguishing from an individual forking because that's replicating/copying the individual's consciousness as opposed to a dividual's division being more akin to splitting apart a mind entirely with minimal overlap, like putting two half's of the same brain in two separate bodies, which is much more practical, ethical, and likely to work/cope if that singular "brain" [dividual] is comprised of two separate brains/individuals that can operate alone and apart than a physiologically singular brain [individual] whose hemispheres have evolved to work together being expecting to operate wholly separate from each other with the same or comparable degree of functionality or quality of life) or perhaps even are simultaneously/concurrently an individual and participating in a "dividuality".

B) If they are separate/individual instances, should how much have they diverged from the original consciousness, both in length of time experienced apart and in differing experiences shaping/changing both the original and instanced personalities from time of forking, be considered as a relevant factor as to whether or not each instance is an "individual"? Furthermore, should such individuality, or lack thereof, be weighed as a potential consideration as to the ethicality of reuniting/combining/merging previously forked instances?

C) And of course, most importantly of all, consent - regardless of the degree of differentiation between each individual instance, whether measured by time apart or by some other (admittedly nebulous) measure of personality, perspective, consciousness divergence, or "originality", the clone themselves could have their own wishes and conclusions independent of whatever we might judge or determine.

Should we insist that each clone takes time to come to their own decision, and to come to terms with their individuality/ego or potential for individuality/ego, or lack thereof? Would doing so, whether inadvertently or purposely, create or "force" divergence and difference in individuality, ego, perspective and/or personality to arise where none exist prior to such "soul searching"/introspection, and in doing so changing the innate dynamics/circumstances, or ethical calculus of the situation by making what would other be a merge of near-identical minds no longer so? Would such a potential solution be more ethical, or in of itself become unethical, because in doing so create and/or develop/inflate/exacerbate difference by prolonging time apart and providing opportunities to change, thereby artificially making reunifying forked instances much more ethically complex and challenging than it would otherwise be?

Would it be ethical to refuse a reunification, even if we and the clone consider it to be effectively the ego death, or a kind of ego death through ego synthesis, of the instanced and perhaps even the original individuals, if both the clone and original consent and desire to do so? We cannot and should not assume that ego or individuality preservation and continuity will be as valued or valued/viewed in the same way by cloned/forked consciousnesses, both collectively and individually, as we do ourselves.

We'd probably need to consider this on an individual, case by case basis, as we can't guarantee or predict what stance and conclusions each and every clone might come to would be the same - especially if we can confirm they do indeed have individuality, or arguably even the potential of developing individuality.
 
Back
Top