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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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DragonParadox said:
Iron, Sliver, Flame and Circle​

By Bob the Skull
[As recorded and then transcribed
by designated scribe Clippy]​

It has often been a weight upon the mind of mankind how to defend themselves from spirits and specters, god-kin and devils all, from the crackling campfire to the Proton Pack in Ghostbusters the toolmaker has conceived of tools against the intangible and the immortal and in a sense it is this very conception that gives power and weight to the tools. Why are the fey vulnerable to cold iron? Because in an age far off when first a mortal warrior crossed blades with one of the Tuatha de Danann cold iron came only from the heavens. What could be more mystical, more potent than that which descended on road to starfire to the earth. Why does sliver serve as bane to the most fearsome of shape-shifters, to the accursed dead? Because it is the metal of the moon whose constant cycles across the heavens marked the passage of time, silver then would place those immortals under the hand of time as mortals felt it. This is a far as many sorcerers go who delve in such matters, content that the tools humankind uses in its defense are of its making, though the blind deaf masses do not understand their greatness.

They are wrong.

There exist in the world principles of boundary and geometry which are not dependent upon what mortal men expect them to be, aspects of reality deep-carved, which might be enhanced by the perception of thinking beings, but are not dependent upon them. One of these all magicians of sense know well, though only in the particular, the Seven Laws of Magic. The corruption which breaking them brings is only a aspect of a wider pattern: the use of mortal magic reinforces itself, a wizard who uses magic to clean his home will tend to rely more and more upon spells for the task, just as one who sings his garden into flower would count it dull indeed to return to the work of spade and shovel. Then there are the fundamental aspects of elemental magic: Fire purifies, water wears away, air communicates, earth preserves and life adapt

[Her Glorious Majesty interjecting: Like Jurassic Park? Jurassic Park held insight into one of the basic insights of magic?

There follows a brief digression as to the nature of the mass media in question of which the entity 'Bob' did not know. This was followed by the philosophical question of whether or not it is worthwhile consuming media which does not include images or other stimuli designed to engage the human libido. Let it be here known that the nature and value of the content 'Baywatch' is in no way cogent to the subject of the lecture]

Then there's circles, circles are one of the most powerful things in the world, but when you come down to it a circle is only the most geometrically even way to invoke a boundary, a way to signal to yourself and to the magic of the universe that you are raising a new boundary. There is no reason why you could not make a magic 'circle' shaped like a square, a pyramid with a hexagon base, a dodecahedron. Indeed people do that all the time, we call those houses, well homes technically there's this whole thing with homes and hearths which we can leave off for another time, but the point is that when you are invoking a boundary you are invoking all boundaries, the very idea of separation of form which is what separates our ordered universe from the Outside in the both literal and metaphorical sense. The Outer Gates are one big protective circle, or at least that was the belief of some of my more philosophically inclined masters. None of them actually went and looked. Anyway it's weird that you can just ignore than, did I mention it was weird?

I know the question you are going to ask, no Outsiders can't ignore circles and thresholds either at least not any of the ones I know. Some of the higher forms, the more evolved for lack of a better term can break through all but the most potent and carefully crafted circles and the most ancient of thresholds, but that is not the same thing as ignoring them. I don't have enough inputs to even begin to guess why that is, but it is probably the same thing that ensures you don't put yourself, your power into promises. If you figure something out give me a heads up you hear?

[It is at this point that her Divine Majesty murmured in a tone too low to be heard by the Bob Entity, but not too low for my microphone: "I don't know which is worse, the puns or the flirting." Suggestions that she discipline the Bob Entity until it would no longer engage in either behavior were met with a negative response. Supposition: Response analogous to the class of actions deemed 'socially unacceptable'. Unproven Hypothesis: Bob Entity is part of human society, in spite of dwelling within a basement unknown to any but Wizard Dresden and those in his confidence.]

OOC: I was going to make this just a straight info-post, but then the scene popped into my head so I compromised and made it a document authored by Bob but from the perspective of Clippy.
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Clippy totally stole the show from Bob in this one. He was the perfect straight man to Bob's...Bobness. :lol:
 
I wonder what Bob would think if he was to ever learn of Autochton. Are tools deadly to monsters because in the ages past the greatest creations of the King of All Craftsmen smote Primordials and established mortal dominion over Creation?
 
Yog said:
I wonder what Bob would think if he was to ever learn of Autochton. Are tools deadly to monsters because in the ages past the greatest creations of the King of All Craftsmen smote Primordials and established mortal dominion over Creation?
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We actually know that prior to the Exalted rebelling against the Primordials, a lot of the 'rules' held, particularly the rule about boundaries between Creation and the Wyld. And we also know that these rules to an extent were the Primordials, which is why they could not die and Gaia was required to hold Creation fast against the Wyld. The gods are of course spirits created to maintain Creation, often powerful ones.

The Unconquered Sun is likely why fire is a cleansing agent in supernatural terms, but the most interesting question is why fire is also such a destructive element in supernatural terms. Because there are so many gods and primordials involved with fire. You could point at the Unconquered Sun, Malfeas himself, or She-Who-Lives-In-Her-Name. If I had to point to someone, I'd go with She-Who-Lives-In-Her-Name as she represents fire as something that consumes and creates more of itself best, but there are plenty of options.

But yeah, in terms of the rules of magic I don't see that Autocthon had a lot to do with many of them. If he DID, it is likely that he would have been more respected by his peers, but in a sense his biggest part in Creation came after it was created.

The way that magic does twist it's user is probably the most interesting 'rule' of magic, as it relates most to how things were in the Wyld prior to the Primordials establishing Creation. In a sense it's the most fundamental 'rule' only obviated from normally affecting everything by Creation itself.
 
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Those rulea probably echo in thw wyld, defining even the primordial, because they are ultimately living storiea like all fae.
 
The echo of the UCS may be why sunlight is metaphysically important, but fire itself is something with a more primordial origin

The way you use your magic being an expression and so determinant of who you are is reminiscent of primoritap mythoses.
 
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drake_azathoth said:
We actually know that prior to the Exalted rebelling against the Primordials, a lot of the 'rules' held, particularly the rule about boundaries between Creation and the Wyld. And we also know that these rules to an extent were the Primordials, which is why they could not die and Gaia was required to hold Creation fast against the Wyld. The gods are of course spirits created to maintain Creation, often powerful ones.

The Unconquered Sun is likely why fire is a cleansing agent in supernatural terms, but the most interesting question is why fire is also such a destructive element in supernatural terms. Because there are so many gods and primordials involved with fire. You could point at the Unconquered Sun, Malfeas himself, or She-Who-Lives-In-Her-Name. If I had to point to someone, I'd go with She-Who-Lives-In-Her-Name as she represents fire as something that consumes and creates more of itself best, but there are plenty of options.

But yeah, in terms of the rules of magic I don't see that Autocthon had a lot to do with many of them. If he DID, it is likely that he would have been more respected by his peers, but in a sense his biggest part in Creation came after it was created.

The way that magic does twist it's user is probably the most interesting 'rule' of magic, as it relates most to how things were in the Wyld prior to the Primordials establishing Creation. In a sense it's the most fundamental 'rule' only obviated from normally affecting everything by Creation itself.
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Wouldn't the root of fire as creation and destruction be Cytherea, the Divine Ignition? it was, arguably, the first primordial (depending on how you count Oramus), and the title is "divine ignition".
Alratan said:
The echo of the UCS may be why sunlight is metaphysically important, but fire itself is something with a more primordial origin
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The largest echo of UCS is the mechanism by which "creature of darkness" tag is applied, if I understand correctly.

In any case, I am looking forward to Bob learning more ancient lore. We can give cult background, and "elevate Bob to proper godhood" is not such a bad idea.
 
Yog said:
Wouldn't the root of fire as creation and destruction be Cytherea, the Divine Ignition? it was, arguably, the first primordial (depending on how you count Oramus), and the title is "divine ignition".
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As I mentioned, there would be multiple potential influencers of fire's supernatural properties. Cytherea would be a good bet for fire as a force for creation, but not for cleansing darkness, (that would absolutely be the Unconquered Sun), or destruction (that could be a few but not Cytherea as she has nothing to do with destruction).

'Has a fire theme' is a lot of the Yozis, but Theion as example leans more toward fire in terms of nuclear fusion and radiation or at least sunburn even before becoming Malfeas.

She-Who-Lives-In-Her-Name is primarily the Principle of Hierarchy, but she's made of fire and in a sense embodies it's destructive nature. Set something on fire and it's destroyed and you get more fire. Simple as that.
 
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Alratan said:
I don't see the UCS having really strong themes of fire. Light, yes, but it so much fire.
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There's a mechanical thing in Exalted called Creatures of Darkness, which is essentially anything on UCS's hitlist, and the cleansing properties of fire/sunlight or anything that affects them in particular specifically are attributed to him. So for example it's possible for a player who is a Very Bad Boy to end up becoming a Creature of Darkness by doing the wrong thing, and UCS's servants will act as if it's essentially a warrant out for them.

There are powers you can get where you throw around flame that does extra damage to Creatures of Darkness, or sunlight that specifically harms Creatures of Darkness and nothing else.

This actually makes perfect sense given the order of events in terms of Creation being made - the Primordials were all dab hands at smiting the everloving crap out of things, but gentle they were not. So when Theion was setting up a guard dog/immune system for Creation with UCS, he made sure that the thing he created was able to actually remove corruption without obliterating everything.

So fire existed before UCS, but perhaps not it's 'cleansing' properties which are explicitly useful against Creatures of Darkness and their taint.
 
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It'd make sense to me if fire as a metaphysical concept was wholly owned by Gaia through the elemental dragons during the age of legends, but not necessarily everything that does stuff like burn the target.

Humans are material creatures and we love to describe things in metaphor and sort unknowns into boxes.

It seems plausible that on a metaphysical level all the things that look like fire are actually distinct, but from a material biased perspective the part mortal minds can grasp is so close to fire that they seem like variations of the same thing rather than a family of elements that similar interactions with the slice of reality we care about.
 
Elemental Fire, as in, the burning flaming flame you use to cook is Gaias invention. Along with Earth, Water, Air and Wood.

It was in one of the splatbooks that her elements would go into making Creation. Theion wanted his super acid in as well but the others talked him out of it.

As for Autochthons greatest contribution: Supposedly he invented causality.

As in, cause and effect.

Which is pretty big as it affected the fucking Wyld as well.

(They were not happy)

As for circles, I think the ur-example would the Adrian (who would become Adorjan).

She used to be a river basically made of acid, chainsaws, laser sharks and generally having a terrible time for anything trying to get across. Theion asked her to run around Creation really, really fast.

She did.

The Fair Folk trying to invade had a terrible time of it.

So that may be part of the concept of circles.

And why Exalted don't care for it. They'd be terrible weapons if they would be stopped by the very form of one of their main targets.
 
DakkaMania said:
As for Autochthons greatest contribution: Supposedly he invented causality.
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There's also Bridge to Nowhere. As in the thing that defines directions:
In the infinite directionless nothing before there was anything, the Great Maker wrought a bridge of ideas, and indicating it said, "Down this path lies nowhere, and so long as we go any other way, we will have direction."
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Fairly sure that thing should still exist (and if we ever look at a bridge and ask "what is the oldest bridge to exist?" or something like that, it'll be a funky trip) and be fundamental to reality.

And wasn't he involved in designing death?
 
Yog said:
There's also Bridge to Nowhere. As in the thing that defines directions:

Fairly sure that thing should still exist (and if we ever look at a bridge and ask "what is the oldest bridge to exist?" or something like that, it'll be a funky trip) and be fundamental to reality.

And wasn't he involved in designing death?
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Dunno about that bridge. Been a while since I read the books.

But Death is AFAIK more an accident on his part. He is the only Primordial that is dying because he has spiritual cancer.

So he isn't exactly happy about maybe inventing death.

Pretty sure he used it to make the Primordial killing bits of the Exalted, though.
 
If we talking about Rules and their own weirdness, in Exalted, time travel and resurrection of the dead are actually impossible, yet in Dresden Files, they are possible (hard but possible). Which brings the question, of who died? Which god or primordial that declared those things impossible died in order to make them possible in modern Dresden Files.
 
slenderman1942 said:
If we talking about Rules and their own weirdness, in Exalted, time travel and resurrection of the dead are actually impossible, yet in Dresden Files, they are possible (hard but possible). Which brings the question, of who died? Which god or primordial that declared those things impossible died in order to make them possible in modern Dresden Files.
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They are only impossible because the Exalted made those rules so the Neverborn, and Yozi could not use those powers to undo their own defeat.
 
It's barely relevant to the discussion, but Molly can't pull off Arthuria's look.
She's a lot less compact that her, so the impression wil be a different one from the suited servant.
 
DakkaMania said:
Dunno about that bridge. Been a while since I read the books.
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It's a pretty obscure piece, it's a fluff description of one of Autochton's primoridial charms:
A Bridge to Nowhere
Cost: 5m Mins: Essence 4; Type: Simple (Dramatic Action)
Keywords: Binding, Combo-OK
Duration: Indefinite
Prerequisite Charms: First Autochthon Excellency

In the infinite directionless nothing before there was anything, the Great Maker wrought a bridge of ideas, and indicating it said, "Down this path lies nowhere, and so long as we go any other way, we will have direction."

Using this charm, a character binds themselves to an object and that object becomes the reference point for their reality – a conceptual landmark and touchstone by which they can reckon everything from physical location to their very identity.

While this charm is in effect, the character can neither gain nor lose intimacies (nor can they be eroded or developed), and their motivation becomes inviolable, perfectly resisting all effects which would alter these characteristics. They also perfectly resist any mental effect which would mislead or misdirect them, and can always judge the distance and direction to the bound object, even through subjective spaces such as the Wyld.

As befits a landmark however, the bound object must be left behind, remaining precisely stationary at the spot where this charm was activated, and should it be moved or destroyed this charm terminates and the character suffers immediate erosion of their identity: they gain a point of limit if they have a limit track, lose temporary willpower equal to their Essence, and each of their intimacies is treated as if a scene had been spent eroding it.
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EDIT: the above is wrong. It's a homebrew. The bridge is real, see one of the next posts for canon quotation. [/EDIT]
slenderman1942 said:
If we talking about Rules and their own weirdness, in Exalted, time travel and resurrection of the dead are actually impossible, yet in Dresden Files, they are possible (hard but possible). Which brings the question, of who died? Which god or primordial that declared those things impossible died in order to make them possible in modern Dresden Files.
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Those two were impossible in a different way. Time Travel was Watsonially impossible by certain forces enforcing "no time travel" to prevent Primordials from undoing the results of Primordial War. I.e. it's possible to do in the setting, but certain inviolate forces prevented you from doing so.

True resurrection was impossible Doylistically, but not Watsonially, as a means of ensuring "consequences matter" paradigm. In-universe, First Age exalts kept working on true resurrection tech, but weren't successful yet.

Both of these are why I keep expecting certain entities from Age of Legends to make a reappearance at some point, clawing their way back from Oblivion through utilizing bootstrap and other paradoxes.
 
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I always figured humans and other 'mundane' animals could ignore boundaries was because of their fundamental mortality, they are already defined primarily by their fundamental limits.

Mortal things are already bound and restrained beyond pretty much any other restriction, they are bound to end and their souls to go to a certain fate.

The supernatural being are not Doomed in the way mortal things are, or perhaps their restrictions are their own equivalent Doom?
 
XenonPrime said:
I always figured humans and other 'mundane' animals could ignore boundaries was because of their fundamental mortality, they are already defined primarily by their fundamental limits.

Mortal things are already bound and restrained beyond pretty much any other restriction, they are bound to end and their souls to go to a certain fate.

The supernatural being are not Doomed in the way mortal things are, or perhaps their restrictions are their own equivalent Doom?
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Wizards are very mortal though, but their magic is bound by circle and threshold.
 
XenonPrime said:
I always figured humans and other 'mundane' animals could ignore boundaries was because of their fundamental mortality, they are already defined primarily by their fundamental limits.

Mortal things are already bound and restrained beyond pretty much any other restriction, they are bound to end and their souls to go to a certain fate.

The supernatural being are not Doomed in the way mortal things are, or perhaps their restrictions are their own equivalent Doom?
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As far as Bob knows there is no qualitative difference between the magic of an ordinary person and that of a wizard, between the way they can use it absolutely, but not the stuff of magic itself, so it may be that someone who enters a house uninvited has less power at their disposal than if they had been invited, but the quantity was so small to begin with that it does not matter what they left at the door. Joe Average has for practical purposes no accessible internal magic, the Shih cheat by jail-breaking their own bodies, gaining access of that magic which the body usually uses to... live so it would be an interesting question if they are affected by thresholds. Bob has never had a chance to speak to one
 
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