Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[firefrog600]

Do you have proof these soldiers don't rebel?

Or that they aren't brainwashed just enough that they will die before thinking of rebelling anyway?

They can absolutely be Janissaries, they do have all their characteristics.

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I mean the fact their fae by the time they reach the gates and the fact that fae have to keep promises. Though there's likely to been infections in the armies at the gates every once in a while probably could be wrong maybe they have stupidly good defenses that stop that there. And those probably cause rebellions.

Edit: Also fae clearly have biological inclinations so many of them clearly don't think similarly to humans which is usually bad if we talk from a moral perspective. Trolls are dumb brutes, redcaps are in fact bloody, sidhe are usually noble (in a intrigue way) in inclination.

 

[uju32]

We see loads of obedient thralls in DF, the idea that supernaturals aren't capable of brainwashing people into their loyal slaves is factually untrue.

And your insistence that the petty cruel murderous slavers are somehow not petty cruel murderous slavers, despite extensive examples in canon, remains baffling.

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We see obedient thralls in specific situations, usually social.
The Black Court explicitly uses people under mind control as thralls; either just fine thralls, or Renfields, who are basically walking zombies who have been mind crushed. The Fomor do something similar.

Whites use thralls who are under influence, but aren't enslaved. They retain free will, and can leave.
Their inducements are more material.

Nobody competent relies on slaves or thralls for defense.
Mind control can be broken and then you just handed your enemies an army to use against you.If any portion of those forces on the Outer Gates required slavery, the defenses would have fallen during the first slave revolt.


Winter are not slavers.
They are, and can be cruel and ruthless and murderous. They can be, but usually aren't petty.
They aren't actually stupid.

Relying on slaves is a glaring vulnerability as anyone who has actually looked at the history of slave revolts will tell you. Its explicitly stated that Winter are fast breeders to replace their own losses; they dont go outside Winter for recruitment of troops outside of specific offices where mortals are explicitly prescribed.

 

[Goldfish]

The slavery debate is generally counterproductive to pretty much any kind of relevant discussion we can have for the time being. It simply doesn't matter at all right now, not even slightly. Y'all basically just rehash it every so often when you want to argue about something.

There is a system in place to guard the Outer Gates. It's worked well enough for millennia that reality is still reality rather some undifferentiated soup of possibilities, misery, and plaid. Yes, when viewed through the lens of modern morality and cultural baggage, that system seems like a big old bag of steaming shit. Doesn't change the necessity of that system one bit.

If you want to end the practices of Winter, you can't just kill Mab or grind the Fae into the metaphysical dirt. That doesn't fix anything, but instead breaks everything.

Fixing or replacing the system entirely is something we might actually be able to do if we grow powerful enough and our resources are allowed to develop properly. We won't ever reach that point if we can't work with it around the current system for the time being. Part of this means not assassinating the one responsible for maintaining the system before we can replace her, not deliberately fucking with the mechanisms of the system to make it more difficult to function, not going out of our way to make it easier for those who wish the system to fail to accomplish their goals, etc, etc, etc.

So in summary, we should mind our own god damned business, kill Outsiders and their allies whenever possible, screw with their plots when the opportunity presents itself, and survive, with survival being key. If we can survive long enough, then we can eventually enact true change.

 

[firefrog600]

We see obedient thralls in specific situations, usually social.
The Black Court explicitly uses people under mind control as thralls; either just fine thralls, or Renfields, who are basically walking zombies who have been mind crushed. The Fomor do something similar.

Whites use thralls who are under influence, but aren't enslaved. They retain free will, and can leave.
Their inducements are more material.

Nobody competent relies on slaves or thralls for defense.
Mind control can be broken and then you just handed your enemies an army to use against you.If any portion of those forces on the Outer Gates required slavery, the defenses would have fallen during the first slave revolt.


Winter are not slavers.
They are, and can be cruel and ruthless and murderous. They can be, but usually aren't petty.
They aren't actually stupid.

Relying on slaves is a glaring vulnerability as anyone who has actually looked at the history of slave revolts will tell you. Its explicitly stated that Winter are fast breeders to replace their own losses; they dont go outside Winter for recruitment of troops outside of specific offices where mortals are explicitly prescribed.

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I will argue their control is a bit more stable than slavery simply cause promises can't be broken and said new fae are probably required to announce their fealty also whatever faery laws are which they seem to just know and god dammit butcher I want the list.

Edit: Also @Nyarky can you reply to my comment in the last page if you want meaningful contributions towards actually solving some problems? Instead of ignoring some points I made I'm getting a bit disheartened no one is replying to any of the actual points I make.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Nobody competent relies on slaves or thralls for defense.
Mind control can be broken and then you just handed your enemies an army to use against you.If any portion of those forces on the Outer Gates required slavery, the defenses would have fallen during the first slave revolt

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Rewiring someone mind to be totally obedient is not hard. Mind control is very good for building armies, and if you do it right it cannot be broken because their loyalty is their new default.

 

[Nyarky]

There is a system in place to guard the Outer Gates. It's worked well enough for millennia that reality is still reality rather some undifferentiated soup of possibilities, misery, and plaid. Yes, when viewed through the lens of modern morality and cultural baggage, that system seems like a big old bag of steaming shit. Doesn't change the necessity of that system one bit.

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The fact that it isn't currently on fire doesn't mean it's optimal, if it is *good enough* and then the users never tried to do better (because they are immortal beings that have sadistic tendencies, for example...), then it isn't so much necessary as *the best we got right now* and changing it for the best is not as difficult as you imply.

 

[firefrog600]

Rewiring someone mind to be totally obedient is not hard. Mind control is very good for building armies, and if you do it right it cannot be broken because their loyalty is their new default.

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Bruh plenty of winter fae hate each other there is clearly not a default mind control loyalty. Just promises kept and such half the court is a viper pit.

 

[firefrog600]

The fact that it isn't currently on fire doesn't mean it's optimal, if it is *good enough* and then the users never tried to do better (because they are immortal beings that have sadistic tendencies, for example...), then it isn't so much necessary as *the best we got right now* and changing it for the best is not as difficult as you imply.

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yes it is don't suggest stopping the children stuff until we can actually replace said children with something else, prove to Mab its efficient, or can fucking entirely replace the court in an afternoon, or a god damn devil tiger.

 

[uju32]

Do you have proof these soldiers don't rebel?

Or that they aren't brainwashed just enough that they will die before thinking of rebelling anyway?

They can absolutely be Janissaries, they do have all their characteristics.

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The proof is: There has not been a major Outsider incursion since Mab came to power.
Because you can be sure that if Winter was using a significant part of its military to try to put down a slave soldier revolt, they would not have the forces to defend the Outer Gates simultaneously.

And if that kind of brainwashing was ever possible, they wouldn't have to worry about Outsiders.

The Janissaries revolted regularly.
And if you look at the linked Wikipedia article, many of those revolts were successful, with overthrows of the government or forcing the govt to increase salaries or change political policy.

Winter doesnt operate Janissaries.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

The Janissaries revolted regularly.
And if you look at the linked Wikipedia article, many of those revolts were successful, with overthrows of the government or forcing the govt to increase salaries or change political policy.

Winter doesnt operate Janissaries.

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They are Fey by the time they get to the gate, it as simple as having them swear absolute and unquestioning obedience, or be killed.

 

[Aeondrac]

I think it is important to note that the system isn't actually working all that well.

The Red Court has been mass summoning Outsiders in their war with the White Council, yet have suffered no serious consequences for doing so.

If the "defenders of reality" aren't doing anything about someone blatantly mucking about with Outsiders, then the system isn't really working.

 

[firefrog600]

They are Fey by the time they get to the gate, it as simple as having them swear absolute and unquestioning obedience, or be killed.

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why do you call it unquestioning then?

I think it is important to note that the system isn't actually working all that well.

The Red Court has been mass summoning Outsiders in their war with the White Council, yet have suffered no serious consequences for doing so.

If the "defenders of reality" aren't doing anything about someone blatantly mucking about with Outsiders, then the system isn't really working.

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I mean yeah like they might not be losing but its not like their winning. Are you arguing getting rid of them will make things shift to winning though? Cause thats certainly not how its gonna go unless we become a newborn primordial even then I'm not sure we'd actually be winning.

 

[Goldfish]

The fact that it isn't currently on fire doesn't mean it's optimal, if it is *good enough* and then the users never tried to do better (because they are immortal beings that have sadistic tendencies, for example...), then it isn't so much necessary as *the best we got right now* and changing it for the best is not as difficult as you imply.

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This argument is no different than saying the current crop of politicians in DC are the problem with the country and that if we could just replace all of them everything would magically be better.

Nothing is ever perfect, dude. Good enough is all you can ever expect in any system more complicated than a wheel, and even wheels are debatable.

Until we can actually do something about Winter's system, railing against it is just as futile as me sitting on my couch bitching about politicians.

It's easy to point out problems, after all, especially when they're so blatantly visible to everyone who cares to look at them. Fixing them, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of that.

We don't have the metaphysical weight, nor the actual weight of numbers and resources needed, to do anything to actually help guard the Outer Gates. Until we do, there is not one thing we can do to fix Winter's system.

If anyone wants to make constructive suggestions about how we can help fix or replace the system, they should probably involve making Molly more powerful, gathering powerful allies, learning the secrets of Creation, learning how and developing a method to export the beings who will eventually populate her Hell en masse, etc.

 

[firefrog600]

This argument is no different than saying the current crop of politicians in DC are the problem with the country and that if we could just replace all of them everything would magically be better.

Nothing is ever perfect, dude. Good enough is all you can ever expect in any system more complicated than a wheel, and even wheels are debatable.

Until we can actually do something about Winter's system, railing against it is just as futile as me sitting on my couch bitching about politicians.

It's easy to point out problems, after all, especially when they're so blatantly visible to everyone who cares to look at them. Fixing them, on the other hand, is the exact opposite of that.

We don't have the metaphysical weight, nor the actual weight of numbers and resources needed, to do anything to actually help guard the Outer Gates. Until we do, there is not one thing we can do to fix Winter's system.

If anyone wants to make constructive suggestions about how we can help fix or replace the system, they should probably involve making Molly more powerful, gathering powerful allies, learning the secrets of Creation, learning how and developing a method to export the beings who will eventually populate her Hell en masse, etc.

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Not to mention even when we get our hell a lot of people don't even want a real world countries worth of population so we sure as hell aren't transporting armies when depopulating our world would be disastrous. Also I'll mention plenty of the hell plans make the world down near useless since like mu for example is no where near centralized, the conditions suck in several areas, and we will barely have time to deal with it so none of the problems inherent in it will be fixed. Fuck the winter themed one I think was yogs even theirs requires time to get things rolling which we'll barely have with so little time in there.

 

[uju32]

Rewiring someone mind to be totally obedient is not hard. Mind control is very good for building armies, and if you do it right it cannot be broken because their loyalty is their new default.

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This is not true.
Winter would not be organized the way it is, if this was true. Lloyd Slate would not have been able to betray Winter; Maeve would not have been able to betray her mother. Arawn would not have been able to betray Mab.

They are Fey by the time they get to the gate, it as simple as having them swear absolute and unquestioning obedience, or be killed.

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Citation needed.
If this was ever possible or routine, Mab would not spend half her day managing the Winter Court and its internal rivalries and tensions.

This is just unfounded speculation as far as I can tell.
And it contravenes multiple, previously established precedents in the setting.

I think it is important to note that the system isn't actually working all that well.
The Red Court has been mass summoning Outsiders in their war with the White Council, yet have suffered no serious consequences for doing so.

If the "defenders of reality" aren't doing anything about someone blatantly mucking about with Outsiders, then the system isn't really working.

Click to shrink...

Isn't it? Nemesis has wormed its way into Winter but they are still doing their primary job. Thats resilience.

They are keeping the Outsider armies out; they've never been able to completely stop infiltrators getting through or being called through by mortals. And It isn't actually coincidence that the Red Court got genocided in canon, after all. Or that Lea was given permission to cut loose.

The Red Court has been summoning Outsiders for specific battles. They've let them through Faerie.

Winter hasn't actually done anything because, entirely coincidentally(/s), they are missing a good chunk of their normal command structure. Lea is in rehab, the Winter Knight is in prison, the Winter Lady is infected.
They have had to prioritize.

 

[firefrog600]

I think it is important to note that the system isn't actually working all that well.

The Red Court has been mass summoning Outsiders in their war with the White Council, yet have suffered no serious consequences for doing so.

If the "defenders of reality" aren't doing anything about someone blatantly mucking about with Outsiders, then the system isn't really working.

Click to shrink...

this is so fucking annoying your expecting omnipotence essentially we're talking about forces of reality and unreality fighting each other don't expect omniscience on either side or someone to be able to do everything perfectly. Even if we're devil tiger don't expect us to just win against the outsiders.

 

[Ct613hulu]

Rewiring someone mind to be totally obedient is not hard. Mind control is very good for building armies, and if you do it right it cannot be broken because their loyalty is their new default.

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The Dresden Files magic system pretty specifically dictates that Mind Control is unavoidably destructive to the victim. Turning people into long-term thralls is always described in canon as eroding their capacities and leading to an inevitable mental collapse. I can't imagine a functionable army centered on the use of thralls given what we have seen of them thus far.

It would also be completely idiotic for the Winter Fae to rely on brainwashed or unwilling slaves when the Outsiders have shown themselves to be so proficient at empowering turncoats and mental infection.

 

[firefrog600]

Okay I don't wanna be mean but can people reply to any of the points being made by the opposition even if its not a your right. Just ignoring them means this whole conversation is pointless. I'll admit I want change in the winter court I just think the way you guys are going about it is stupid and premature. Like seriously please stop ignoring the points being made at least argue against them instead of ignoring please or just stop discussing.

 

[DragonParadox]

I will say this much, you cannot get a fey to swear unquestioning obedience, there are limits to what you can ask of one of the fey even in the context of the Courts. Serf is about as much as you can get, someone of lowly position, but still with some privileges guaranteed. Now if one of them ends up making a large enough mistake then the bindings can get tighter.

 

[BoredMan]

Winter does tributary states and clients.
Winter doesnt do slaves.
Slaves are a security risk for a faction that has to worry about hostile infiltrators that will offer deals to the disaffected.

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What about the conscripted kids? I imagine quite a few of them don't want to fight and die for Winter but aren't allowed to leave. Nor did all of them agree to be given up by their parents in the first place. What else would that be other than slavery???

Also did we forget to bring Mabs car?!

 

[Ct613hulu]

What about the conscripted kids? I imagine quite a few of them don't want to fight and die for Winter but aren't allowed to leave. Nor did all of them agree to be given up by their parents in the first place. What else would that be other than slavery???

Also did we forget to bring Mabs car?!

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Reposting a modified rebuttal to this that I brought up earlier:

Winter directly sending children to fight on the front lines and that very much doesn't match my recollection of canon. It doesn't make any military sense even by the extremely flimsy standards of the Dresden Files and forcing slaves to fight a faction defined by their ability to corrupt is an obvious route to failure.

My understanding is that the children "recruited" into Winter would eventually grow up to serve the Court as mortal magic users or turn into Winter Fae. They would serve the military goals of Winter in the same way as any other Winter Fae and not be immediately deployed as cheap canon fodder. The overarching agenda would be to supplement the low natural birth rate of supernatural beings. Any military service would be akin to the (admittedly morally dubious) practice of conscripting citizens rather than something as explicitly abusive as the Janissary.

There is obvious room for some serious abuse in this paradigm but it isn't quite as clear-cut as simple slavery. In many cases the "recruitment" can even be viewed positively. I would imagine that many young magic users (the most valuable targets) would find life in supernatural realm to be far superior to life as a normal human where their gifts would very often make them the subject of abuse. This is even before we get into the generally atrocious quality of life for most humans in the pre-modern era.

My thinking on this is inspired by Mercedes Lackey's writing in the SERRAted Edge and Doubled Edge Series. She presents the Fey practice of abducting children as positive (at least for the good faction) with them rescuing children from abusive situations while acquiring the new blood and human vitality that allow a society of immortals with minimal population growth and dangerous enemies to thrive in the long term. It obviously can't be anywhere nearly as clear cut in the Dresden Files but I still think the story works better if the practice is more than simple slavery.

 

[firefrog600]

What about the conscripted kids? I imagine quite a few of them don't want to fight and die for Winter but aren't allowed to leave. Nor did all of them agree to be given up by their parents in the first place. What else would that be other than slavery???

Also did we forget to bring Mabs car?!

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its morally fucked up I'll give that. Not much worse than some older practices not that it justifies it. But, can we table this conversation unless someone brings up solutions that aren't kill the bitch.

I will say this much, you cannot get a fey to swear unquestioning obedience, there are limits to what you can ask of one of the fey even in the context of the Courts. Serf is about as much as you can get, someone of lowly position, but still with some privileges guaranteed. Now if one of them ends up making a large enough mistake then the bindings can get tighter.

Click to shrink...

This kind of makes sense though whether its due to metaphysics or promises made at the inception of the courts is unknown, or made after, or even before. Cause while fae are technically newish 1500 years at most they did have some kind of predecessor or something and they likely used some stuff in sacrifice to make the courts. debts and favors can transfer from one position holder to the next after all. Offhand you made a decision on that ooc for what it is in character or given yourself breathing room to make a decision later?

 

[DragonParadox]

its morally fucked up I'll give that. Not much worse than some older practices not that it justifies it. But, can we table this conversation unless someone brings up solutions that aren't kill the bitch.

This kind of makes sense though whether its due to metaphysics or promises made at the inception of the courts is unknown, or made after, or even before. Cause while fae are technically newish 1500 years at most they did have some kind of predecessor or something and they likely used some stuff in sacrifice to make the courts. debts and favors can transfer from one position holder to the next after all. Offhand you made a decision on that ooc for what it is in character or given yourself breathing room to make a decision later?

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That is beyond the scope of what Molly knows off the top of her head. You can ask Mab though.

 

[firefrog600]

Reposting a modified rebuttal to this that I brought up earlier:

Winter directly sending children to fight on the front lines and that very much doesn't match my recollection of canon. It doesn't make any military sense even by the extremely flimsy standards of the Dresden Files and forcing slaves to fight a faction defined by their ability to corrupt is an obvious route to failure.

My understanding is that the children "recruited" into Winter would eventually grow up to serve the Court as mortal magic users or turn into Winter Fae. They would serve the military goals of Winter in the same way as any other Winter Fae and not be immediately deployed as cheap canon fodder. The overarching agenda would be to supplement the low natural birth rate of supernatural beings. Any military service would be akin to the (admittedly morally dubious) practice of conscripting citizens rather than something as explicitly abusive as the Janissary.

There is obvious room for some serious abuse in this paradigm but it isn't quite as clear-cut as simple slavery. In many cases the "recruitment" can even be viewed positively. I would imagine that many young magic users (the most valuable targets) would find life in supernatural realm to be far superior to life as a normal human where their gifts would very often make them the subject of abuse. This is even before we get into the generally atrocious quality of life for most humans in the pre-modern era.

My thinking on this is inspired by Mercedes Lackey's writing in the SERRAted Edge and Doubled Edge Series. She presents the Fey practice of abducting children as positive (at least for the good faction) with them rescuing children from abusive situations while acquiring the new blood and human vitality that allow a society of immortals with minimal population growth and dangerous enemies to thrive in the long term. It obviously can't be anywhere nearly as clear cut in the Dresden Files but I still think the story works better if the practice is more than simple slavery.

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Fairly sure its not the magic tradition thing especially since word of jim all fae have a mortal origin and mortals probably aren't too reliable at the outer gates. Also you know wizard talents are rare and I'm unsure if they have ways to detect that early on. Given they definitely could making wizard talents is nothing approaching reliable anywhere I know of though so any reliable source of them doing that is unlikely. Given the courts have definitely had wizard talents working for them before.

 

[firefrog600]

That is beyond the scope of what Molly knows off the top of her head. You can ask Mab though.

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sadly one of the most annoying things about the courts is they don't trade information for free no matter how irrelevant unless its already known. Given we could definitely do info for info we have more than enough old occult lore mab wouldn't know that we could trade piece meal for piece meal right? While their occults definitely higher we have trademark ancient occult and she has her own brand I'm sure and much shes learned over the years.