Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- Crossover Fantasy
Recruits get to leave. Even in conscription-using states you can renounce your citizenship as the "nuclear option" to avoid conscription.
I am sorry, but the attempts to white-wash what Winter does really angers me.
No further discussion, since it's not productive. We won't see eye to eye on this.
Conscription is much the same thing IRL.
We dont consider it slavery either legally.
We dont actually know how they serve Winter. We know fuckall of the details beyond Molly going to recruit from the Miksani: No idea how long they spend in training, no idea what their duties are, what their weapons are, if they retire and what happens when they do so, since apparently they dont get to go home.
Butcher hasn't actually done any public world building on this.
Or indeed on the logistics of an army of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, thats somehow manning a wall on the borders of reality. Especially when teeth to tail ratios are apparently 1: 9 or so.
We'll have it delivered to Mac's bar, obviously.
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I mean uju has never actually tried to justify their act as good so please don't call it white wash. Also I mean recruits get to leave ehhhh there are plenty of cases in history where thats not true or the renouncing of citizenship. Heck its not even true now if you mean leave whenever desertions a crime in pretty much everywhere still. Sorry if your not liking the conversation I'd be more happy if shit other than kill them is suggested as its not helpful its flowey justifications for making stupid decisions.
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Like uju your willing to you know mess with winter and change things if the suggestions work right? Like you don't want to be bosom buddies or something with the winter court? Your just mentioning the logic of their actions, the logic of our own theoretical actions, and saying that quite a few of these ideas are just bad or based in delusions?
Citation:
I reread the Cold Cases (the short story that is most directly relevant to this issue) and am posting the most relevant quote. It seems to be the only portion of the Dresaden Files dealing with these children and is extremely vague. The treatment of the "tribute" could be anything from a necessary evil needed to ensure that soldiers have the childhood training needed to survive combat with Outsiders to an indoctrination process meant to keep cannon fodder in line until their lives are expended.
Whether "They're never going back home" means they will be forced to fight until they die or will never return due to them becoming full Winter Fae is up to interpretation. Mab doesn't provide any context beyond claiming that it is necessary and Molly doesn't know nearly enough at this point for her outrage to be treated as fact.
"We cannot expect our people to bear a burden that we do not," Mab replied, her tone level, implacable. "You will learn to endure it." "You want me to take children," I hissed. "I am fighting a war," Mab said simply. "Fighting a war requires soldiers." "But they're children. Children like my little brothers and sisters. And you want me to carry them away." "Of course. It is the ideal time to learn, to be trained until they come into their strength and are ready to do battle," Mab said. "It is the only way to prepare them for what is to come. The only way to give them a chance to survive the duties I require of them." "How long?" I asked through clenched teeth. "How long will they be gone?" "Until they are no longer needed," Mab said. "Until they're killed, you mean," I said. "They're never going back home."
Whether "They're never going back home" means they will be forced to fight until they die or will never return due to them becoming full Winter Fae is up to interpretation. Mab doesn't provide any context beyond claiming that it is necessary and Molly doesn't know nearly enough at this point for her outrage to be treated as fact.
"We cannot expect our people to bear a burden that we do not," Mab replied, her tone level, implacable. "You will learn to endure it." "You want me to take children," I hissed. "I am fighting a war," Mab said simply. "Fighting a war requires soldiers." "But they're children. Children like my little brothers and sisters. And you want me to carry them away." "Of course. It is the ideal time to learn, to be trained until they come into their strength and are ready to do battle," Mab said. "It is the only way to prepare them for what is to come. The only way to give them a chance to survive the duties I require of them." "How long?" I asked through clenched teeth. "How long will they be gone?" "Until they are no longer needed," Mab said. "Until they're killed, you mean," I said. "They're never going back home."
Yes.
Its canon that Mab told Winter Lady Molly: Give me a better option.
This is in the same short story that people quote for Winter recruiting underage recruits for training.
There is a cold logic to what Winter does. They aren't gratuitous.
They aren't stupid. Nor are the people who set them up in the first place.
Give them something that works better, and they'll probably adopt it.
Or at least you'll have backing to push for it to change.
By all account being sent to the outer gates is a death sentence in all but name.
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You know chances are at least some of those in the courts we hate now used to be good people I'm very curious what they used to be like in canon and in quest. Too bad we'll probably never learn.
That is true, and I do consider conscription a form of slavery (or at least indentured service).
Please note that I never proposes "kill them all and let White God sort them out". As far as Outer Gates go, I don't have a solution so far. Most likely my solutions long term would involve breaking the masquerade, and proliferation of motonic science, which would include mind protective technology.
I know, and USA is one of the very few (if not the only) countries that does this, and I do consider conscription a form of slavery.
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then give some fucking alternative dude or please stop bitching as if your helping anyone please for the love of god wait or find a way for alternatives then acting rabid whenever the court comes up.
Hmm I think the motonic science is a very bad idea since well not much basis, arguable it'd do anything, takes too long that it wouldn't matter in quest, and the fact that information is power for the outsiders lovecraft literally gave some of them power in some way and they apparently feed on fear. So that stuff probably isn't an answer glad for your admittance that there is no plan though and I'm thinking the way your putting your words down you'd be open to alternatives if they work right?
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We don't have enough information on the Winter Fae military system and conflict with the Outsiders to determine whether their abuses are really necessary or just another case of the "Hard Man Making Hard Choices" fallacy. I am inclined to go with the latter as much of what we see Winter Fae do has absolutely no connection to the conflict with the Outsiders.
How are roving packs of Malk preying on the homeless or Trolls demanding child sacrifices to use their bridge remotely useful to the war effort? Why have such an atrocious monster (Loyld Slate) for the Winter Knight rather than a professional soldier or someone with useful talents? It seems like all the Winter Fae we see are brutal thugs or self-serving nobles. This makes it hard to imagine them as a professional military force capable of effectively protecting the world from the Outsiders.
It makes far more sense for the Winter Fae to simply be failing at their job due to an outdated perspective that prioritizes brutality over military discipline and logistics, a military that hasn't developed new innovations in millennia, and a government that hasn't advanced past the feudal system. The inability of the immortal Fair Folk to change and adapt to new conditions is often central feature of their archetype. Having this be their fatal flaw in the Dresden Files would both explain much of their unusual structure and provides a clear path for the mortal protagonists to make a meaningful difference in a conflict between armies of immortals.
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hmm few things I should mention not all the court is nearly as dedicated to the cause as Mab and it shows and she can't fully control everyone in the court its a limitation of sorts. For slate well two things the mantle does in fact affect the user and does in fact make them a worse person does take time though, seems to be some free will involved, and harry is fucking harry his willpower is not normal. Second slate was probably employed with certain goals in mind and the courts not omniscient. We also don't know everything about them and their goals and cruelty is not a downside for winter court.
I tend to think of it as physiological wants and needs and winter is made from the cold, the darkness, and sometimes literal cruelty it has a lot of associated concepts but many of the beings in it are quite literally affected by what they are and what they are is not nice. Also deals and such which can be used as an excuse for just about everything really some deals and promises made can probably permanently affect the way said fae act.
Also should mention while many probably do care about the gates the fae that we see are the ones meant for projecting power on earth, against other fae courts, and defending real world stuff. Also you know how said fae literally cannot fathom certain ideas when it applies to themselves some fae being objectively unable to do think in terms of kindness and such.
So less fallacy for many of them and more literal creatures of darkness.
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Whose account? Do we have a citation?
Do you know what the average or median lifespan of the average combatant is at the Outer Gates?
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A lot of people forget that Winter is literally always in a state of existential war.
And their practices reflect that.
Conscription is not a thing any more because large parts of the world dont have total war as a concern.
Compare with what human laws were like for stuff like desertion or attempting to evade a conscription notice during WW2, which was the last total war.
-We dont know. Insufficient data.
There is likely to be some element of Hard Men Theory, but generally of what we see appears to have been common human practice these past few centuries, and is predicated on the societies that they recruit from. And Winter appears to be organized under feudalish lines.
Mab appears to think its a regretful necessary, and Molly hasn't proposed an alternative in canon..
Requires more data.
-A lot of the Fae in the real world are Wyldfae. Fae with no allegiance to either court.
In theory the Sidhe claim jurisdiction over them, but in practice there doesnt appear to be any sort of actual control or governance.Both Summer and Winter recruit from them. So do other factions when they need contractors.
See Toot-Toot and the Za-Brigade.
-Lloyd Slate allegedly was nothing like he currently is when he was recruited.
At least if you ask Sarissa.
Power corrupts some people.
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I should mention by the way while somewhat alien a lot of summer court are literally benevolent. Just harry had to make the queen hate him even though she knows what he did was needed loves still love and shes of summer. Also harry interacts with them less because harry can't have nice things lol.
Well, the ultimate solution is, and has always been "break open the Black Vault and let the exalted host do what it does best". The longer explanation involves engineering the situation where the breaking of the Black Vault would result in the overwhelming amount of exaltations going to our already established allies, who have been connected to support structures and are in position to hit the ground running. A united exalted host, free from Great Curse, led by an elder or near-elder Infernal (i.e. a nascent primordial 2.0), and backed by a modern world should be able to do at least as good as Winter does, and likely far better.
If that is not an option, other possible solutions should be explored. We know too little of the situation to plan yet. For example, we need to know why combat automata with no free will and not enough minds to matter can't be employed. We don't know why angels are not employed in the defense against the Outer Gates. Why vat-grown soldiers (produced in such excessive numbers that selecting willing candidates giving informed consent become possible) are not a thing. We don't know why innumerable alien species are not involved in defense of the NeverNever. We don't know why fae numbers are so low (based on how alternative Earths seem to exist in NeverNever, fae numbers should be in quadrillions and more). Too many unknowns. What we do know doesn't fill me with confidence.
My headcanon is that fae courts are a product of their time. They were established in ancient times by pre-inductrial societies of mortal humans, and likely in times of desperations. Societies where things decimation, gladiatorial combat, and slavery were the norm. They were established without too much foresight in how the world and society can change. The nature of their immortality and their inability to break oaths is both a benefit and a burden. Modern courts are riddled with millenia of legacy - oaths made long ago that became obsolete, but can't be revoked.
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At best, in terms of moral, we can see Mab as a feudal ruler, with all the shit that implies.
Only difference to a regular feudal ruler is of course that she is incredibly powerful and that power is again exponentially greater against those she has legitimate authority over by the rules that Fey abide.
So rebellion, be it from Janissary-equivalents or regular vassals, are almost always doomed to fail.
You can partially escape her influence, like Arawn or in a sense Kringle can, but you can't successfully coup her, at least not without huge outside (mostly literal Outside) power to aid you.
That's really not great and we should do something about it, though not with a high priority.
For now I still see the White Court as our easiest target for taking over a mid-sized supernatural power.
We have just proven that Lara Raith can barely match us in social situations and we can be reasonably sure that very few Elders can do so in combat, so that's a fruit ripe to pick, even if the picking might take some years of effort.
Only difference to a regular feudal ruler is of course that she is incredibly powerful and that power is again exponentially greater against those she has legitimate authority over by the rules that Fey abide.
So rebellion, be it from Janissary-equivalents or regular vassals, are almost always doomed to fail.
You can partially escape her influence, like Arawn or in a sense Kringle can, but you can't successfully coup her, at least not without huge outside (mostly literal Outside) power to aid you.
That's really not great and we should do something about it, though not with a high priority.
For now I still see the White Court as our easiest target for taking over a mid-sized supernatural power.
We have just proven that Lara Raith can barely match us in social situations and we can be reasonably sure that very few Elders can do so in combat, so that's a fruit ripe to pick, even if the picking might take some years of effort.
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Uh in canon alternative earths are not strictly in the nevernever there quite literally is a multiverse many which don't have a nevernever. That doesn't exist here so no need to talk about it as dp doesn't like it. For canon why aliens aren't involved presumably because they don't exist and earth as one person asked Butcher why is it important in this setting well Butcher said its important on this version of Earth. For why angels aren't doing stuff no idea presumably since the archangels at least are multiversal that well its just one earth and their doing countless things maybe. For vats maybe its not efficient? Also access to said multiverse doesn't seem to be all that butcher literally said uriel is dealing with more than one dresden this earth in canon isn't the end all be all special. For why there aren't countless fae I mean said fae for at least closely divergent realities are likely defending their own man so thats why there aren't countless. For oaths yeah I probably agree with you they probably did not plan out all the oaths they made in ways they'd want now. Though in some ways thats probably for the better as I bet at least some of those who'd become ladies and queens were probably nicer people before they became what they did when making some oaths.
Edit: Just like how time travel is not entering a world in the nevernever other realities do in fact exist.
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This is a weird hill to die on. The client states might retain high level sovereignty, but the people sent as tribute are unlikely to be willing.
I don't buy Yog's position on this because it doesn't fit the situation*, but trying to maintain a 'not touching you' game with slavery on their more coercive behaviors doesn't make sense.
* For the many reasons I've already argued, but also because the perfect time to try what he's afraid of was then and there in the museum. Waiting like this and then coming in with the specific intent to go this route would be self sabotaging of her.
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By the way I laughed at the black vault comment nothing else was laughable at best it was information with false premises you wouldn't have known. I laughed cause the idea of releasing all the exaltations and going this'll probably go fine is hilarious to me.
Edit: Its basically the wizard meme.
Edit: Its basically the wizard meme.
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No more than when we had conscription as the law of the land. Selective Service registration is still a mandatory requirement for male Americans iirc, even though its not been used since Vietnam, its still on the books.
And its not just the US; peacenik Finland still requires peacetime conscription on pain of imprisonment.
The Miksani are supposed to have been a Native American tribe of shapeshifters, but Mab calls them Winter when talking to Molly. There's a fair amount of fuzziness there, with the only clarity being that they are in a mutual relationship where both the larger organization and the smaller society have obligations to each other.
We dont see anyone taking, say, troops from a group of humans sworn to Mab's service to serve at the Gates.
And you cant just turn random humans into Fae.
Apparently.
This is literally what exaltations and exalted host were made for - waging Universal War against the beings that transcend the definition of godhood, kicking the principles of Hierarchy and Rulership down from their thrones, and killing that which by definition couldn't be killed. Exalted Host succeeded once, and ultimately fell due to, at least in large part, Great Curse. Absent said Curse, and starting from an arguably better position where they don't need to lead guerilla warfare and bootstrap their society from stone age to motonic science sci-fi fantasy future, I am fairly sure we'd do better, short and long term.
I am unironically stating that, with proper preparation (that's important), breaking open Black Vault is a win condition.
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Not disagreeing with you really doesn't change its the wizard meme. Though I guarantee something would go wrong in this situation nothing avoiding that really its just an inherent thing that some of said exalted will cause problems. Also you know how restraining exalted goes and some of that would be tried. Also you know abyssals and infernals do not usually make for the most moral mind sets lol.
Did you read my comment about the multiverse and why there are countless fae? Cause in canon there are countless realities many of which have their own nevernevers. For why the fae don't have countless fae well their separate realities their defending their own obviously or don't exist I guess infinite realities afterall. None of that matters here though cause there aren't infinite realities in quest okay?