Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

And Slate was tortured for his betrayal after that, how does that proves he wasn't a slave?

A slave that tries to flee still was a slave.



They can enslave you, they just cannot use magical mind control to do it.

They don't need to magically puppet your body for it to be enslavement.



*Looks at child soldiers groomed to die and not think for themselves, looks back*

I'm fairly sure those children are turned into non-humans not saying that makes it good not sure how much it should be considered slavery when you can't even think of disobeying. Not that it isn't a nightmare lol when your physiologically incapable of breaking promises and chain of command to some degree its kinda hard to consider them similar to humans anymore.
 
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Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on May 29, 2023 at 9:22 AM, finished with 92 posts and 26 votes.
 
And Slate was tortured for his betrayal after that, how does that proves he wasn't a slave?
A slave that tries to flee still was a slave.
The Winter Knight's job, among others, is to KILL Winter Royalty when its necessary.
Their magic iirc ignores the defenses of the senior members of Winter.

Dresden is accredited with Maeve's kill in canon; Mab told him to kill Maeve, and explicitly told Dresden in Battle Grounds that if she was killed in that war, to kill Molly (Whether or not its meant to stick I dont know).
You dont give that kind of power or responsibility to slaves.

Feudal affiliates yes. Slaves no.

Not to mention that Slate's accounted to have committed treason.
Slaves cant commit treason.
You have to have freely sworn allegiance to Winter to be capable of betraying it.

They can enslave you, they just cannot use magical mind control to do it.
They don't need to magically puppet your body for it to be enslavement.
We have NEVER seen a Fae slave in canon. Ever.
In the Red Court yes.
Not in Winter. Or Summer for that matter.

*Looks at child soldiers groomed to die and not think for themselves, looks back*
They are recruited from client states who bear allegiance to Winter, and pay tribute in soldiers.
Not slaves.
Underage recruits by modern human standards, but not slaves.
 
Arc 7 Post 19: All Hallows Eve Aknocking
All Hallows Eve Aknocking

31th of October 2006 A.D.

Restored all Essence -> Now at 12/12

As the sun slips through the sky, pale and distant in the October air branches scratching at the window you hear the neighbor's dog bar in the distance , perhaps a futile attempt to ward off the neighbor kids, already getting ready for free candy day, perhaps a little more. Are there more crows on the phone lines than there used to be? Is that a black cat or just a trick of the light? The wind snatches up bits of music from the rush of passing cars and the lights flicker on like little stars threaded though with wires, one two three, four. Except that last one that seems to be moving on its own... a trick of the light surely and not a curious pixie. Hope's going out for the first time this year which means that Daniel is on jawa-watching duty, a fact which had left him stomping around grumpily all day, until that is Lydia has showed up to help shepherd them along. She's dressed in this white-laced pseudo-Victorian number, though you are pretty sure the actual Victorians would have a fit at the slit on the side and the slash of blood red lipstick.

"What are you going as?" Leech asks pugnaciously, maybe at just the thought of Daniel being with a girl, though she has not been having the best day either. Your little sister has a great memory for some things, numbers, grudges and where she put the latest number of Scientific American, not so much for Halloween costumes, which is how she ended up dresses as a pirate, using some of the stuff at the back of the attic. It was either than or Zorro and dad had vetoed making her a sword to go with that consume. She can have one when she knows how to use it, which in leech's case is likely to be never, swords aren't her style

"A vampire," Lydia shrugs. "Or a ghost. In mythology they are closer than you might think."

Rolling your eyes at the double meaning, ghosts are indeed closer to the world of the living tonight than any other might you cannot help but smile. It's nice to know she's going with in case something nasty decides to take a pot shot, but it's also nice seeing Lydia getting to have some fun. She doesn't think he's too old or too cool to be toting around a candy bag... which is more than can be said for Matthew.

If he asks about the route one more time...

"So we are going down by the Denny's right, not left around the block? Because we always go there and it's... er... borring."

...you think Daniel might just lock him in the basement from the look of him. Matthew does not want his friends to see him doing something as uncool as Trick or Treating even though the Soul Society inspired costume is probably the best one here.

Amanda is dressed as Belle from Beauty and the Beast, not the princess-y version but the one at the start of the movie, complete with book-prop while Hope is still young enough to be happy going as 'princess classic', which is to say a vaguely rotund wag of teal skirts presently bouncing in excitement at finally getting to 'go after the candy'. That is what she looks like before she had sweets in her.

Maybe going out to beard the Fey Queen in her den isn't so bad comparatively, you think amused.

Mom catches you by the door as she is wont to do. "Molly are you sure?'

"I need to prove I can stand on my own two feet mom," you answer, followed by the reassurance that had by now become refrain. "It's Accord Neutral Territory." Thank God she did not actually read the part of the Accords about displaying stolen treasures or she would never let you go alone.

She hugs you, warm and comforting, you hug her back, not as cold as you used to me, but your decision stands. You are metaphorically loaded for T-Rex when it comes to this talk, the last thing you want is anyone caught in the crossfire.

"Stay safe." She kisses your forehead and runs her hands through your hair, not even commenting on the colors.

"You too mom, you too."

Parting from dad is shorter, but no less emotional. The armor beneath your clothes clinks softly when he squeezes your shoulder, a reminder that you might be going off to a fight of some kind, against the fey, against people who might want to disrupt the meeting, God only knows what else.

With a silent prayer you cross the threshold out into the crisp evening air, Black Rider's Lights spilling out ahead of him as the doors click open
***​

The journey to Mac's is at once too long, filled with worries and thoughts of how you might greet Mab , what you might tell her as much as what she might know, and to short like you had barely had time to settle back into your seat when the earthy green door comes into view.

Showtime

How do you greet the Queen of Winter

[] Write in
Charm Load out and how Molly is dressed may be included if you so wish

OOC: No rolls for this one since it was more of a touching base with family update after all the action and lore.
 
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Any differnece that makes no difference is no difference at all. They are slaves.
They are not. Stop diluting the word by throwing it at every arrangement you dont like.

There are actual slaves in the setting, like we see with the Red Court, the Black Court and the Fomor.
The Reds control theirs with terror, chemicals and blackmail, while the Black Court and Fomor doing a lot of magical mind control shit. The Fomor actually kidnap fresh meat off the streets.

Winter doesnt use slaves.
Slavery is an unreliable institution. Everything we know in human history demonstrates this.

Winter isn't going to enslave you, and then give you weapons and put you to defend reality; not when you can open those gates to the enemy or commit sabotage.
 
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They are not. Stop diluting the word by throwing it at every arrangement you dont like.

There are actual slaves in the setting, like we see with the Red Court, the Black Court and the Fomor.
The Reds control theirs with terror, chemicals and blackmail, while the Black Court and Fomor doing a lot of magical mind control shit.

Winter doesnt use slaves.
True they brake people until nothing is left but unquestioned obedience, actually worse then being just mere slavers.
 
True they brake people until nothing is left but unquestioned obedience, actually worse then being just mere slavers.
fairly sure this is wrong simply cause that doesn't work their not even strictly human anymore big difference.

Edit: Also not even unquestioning obedience cause the things that come out of said beings can question things and have certain levels of infighting.
 
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True they brake people until nothing is left but unquestioned obedience, actually worse then being just mere slavers.
This is a total fabrication.
And is beyond anything ANY faction is capable of in the Dresdenverse, or is allowed to.
Even the Fallen cant do this, and they are fucking angels.

Because here's the thing:
If Winter could do it, so can Nemesis and its comrades. And Nemesis would only need to grab the right officer to open the Outer Gates.

EDIT
Just to be clear, I am not trying to be offensive.
But whoever told you that is either willfully misinformed or trying to misinform you.
 
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yeah there's no faction we've seen without infighting and every last fae according to butcher has a human origin somehow no fucking idea but somehow. Maybe their recycled soul stuff or something. Its more similar to a caste system than slavery really. Arguably horrible but its not like the ones that aren't at the gates don't all have some level of autonomy its just autonomy based around rules, promises, and physiological limitations.
 
They are recruited from client states who bear allegiance to Winter, and pay tribute in soldiers.
Not slaves.
Underage recruits by modern human standards, but not slaves.

See, the thing is, you keep insisting they're not slaves, except that they are, *children given to fight your wars without any way to choose their fate for themselves* are slaves, it doesn't matter that they're given by client states due to *ancient debts* they're still offered as slaves.

Yog already pointed it out: Janissaries are slaves soldiers, and that's what they are, in fact, the wikipedia definition of them does point out that they are given almost exactly the same way as the children you insists are not slaves.

Here: "Janissaries began as elite corps made up through the devşirme system of child levy enslavement, by which Christian Albanians, Bulgarians, Croats, Greeks, Romanians and Serbs were taken, levied, subjected to forced circumcision and conversion to Islam, and incorporated into the Ottoman army.[6] They became famed for internal cohesion cemented by strict discipline and order. Unlike typical slaves, they were paid regular salaries. Forbidden to marry before the age of 40 or engage in trade, their complete loyalty to the Sultan was expected."

They're slaves, so Winter does do slaves.
 
This is a total fabrication.
And is beyond anything ANY faction is capable of in the Dresdenverse, or is allowed to.
Even the Fallen cant do this, and they are fucking angels.
We see loads of obedient thralls in DF, the idea that supernaturals aren't capable of brainwashing people into their loyal slaves is factually untrue.

And your insistence that the petty cruel murderous slavers are somehow not petty cruel murderous slavers, despite extensive examples in canon, remains baffling.
 
See, the thing is, you keep insisting they're not slaves, except that they are, *children given to fight your wars without any way to choose their fate for themselves* are slaves, it doesn't matter that they're given by client states due to *ancient debts* they're still offered as slaves.

Yog already pointed it out: Janissaries are slaves soldiers, and that's what they are, in fact, the wikipedia definition of them does point out that they are given almost exactly the same way as the children you insists are not slaves.

Here: "Janissaries began as elite corps made up through the devşirme system of child levy enslavement, by which Christian Albanians, Bulgarians, Croats, Greeks, Romanians and Serbs were taken, levied, subjected to forced circumcision and conversion to Islam, and incorporated into the Ottoman army.[6] They became famed for internal cohesion cemented by strict discipline and order. Unlike typical slaves, they were paid regular salaries. Forbidden to marry before the age of 40 or engage in trade, their complete loyalty to the Sultan was expected."

They're slaves, so Winter does do slaves.
I mean this all seems to be looked at from an emotional perspective which you know fair enough. But, for one their needed, two they are you know allowed thoughts to some degree it seems, and three they are no longer human and clearly are not fighting until they are no longer human. Like its not remotely kind, fair, or ethical but its not such a simple matter and bringing it up time and time again like they have so many better options is stupid cause being honest mab would likely use both options if they existed.
We see loads of obedient thralls in DF, the idea that supernaturals aren't capable of brainwashing people into their loyal slaves is factually untrue.

And your insistence that the petty cruel murderous slavers are somehow not petty cruel murderous slavers, despite extensive examples in canon, remains baffling.
He literally already said that certain factions have slaves read his fucking posts dude he said completely obedient in all cases is factually untrue. No faction has a completely loyal base to work with. The one he replied too said worse than slavery and not allowed thoughts of disobedience which is very untrue.
 
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True they brake people until nothing is left but unquestioned obedience, actually worse then being just mere slavers.

Have you actually read the series? We regularly see Winter Fae behaving as reasonably normal people for supernatural beings. There is absolutely no indication they are all mind-broken slaves. There is certainly a high level of abuse but nothing to indicate that it is applied on such a comprehensive and extreme level.

See, the thing is, you keep insisting they're not slaves, except that they are, *children given to fight your wars without any way to choose their fate for themselves* are slaves, it doesn't matter that they're given by client states due to *ancient debts* they're still offered as slaves.

Yog already pointed it out: Janissaries are slaves soldiers, and that's what they are, in fact, the wikipedia definition of them does point out that they are given almost exactly the same way as the children you insists are not slaves.

Here: "Janissaries began as elite corps made up through the devşirme system of child levy enslavement, by which Christian Albanians, Bulgarians, Croats, Greeks, Romanians and Serbs were taken, levied, subjected to forced circumcision and conversion to Islam, and incorporated into the Ottoman army.[6] They became famed for internal cohesion cemented by strict discipline and order. Unlike typical slaves, they were paid regular salaries. Forbidden to marry before the age of 40 or engage in trade, their complete loyalty to the Sultan was expected."

They're slaves, so Winter does do slaves.

Where does the idea that ALLL the Winter Fae are children that were turned over for conversion come from? I thought that there were numerous civilizations and cultures in the Nevernever that provided the central courts with members who acquired relevant supernatural attributes as a consequence of their affiliation. They were supplemented by the Fae born into the courts and Human "recruited" for conversion.

This leaves room for a wide variety of arrangements that can be abusive, mutually-beneficial, or a mixture according to the specific circumstances.
 
Where does the idea that ALLL the Winter Fae are children that were turned over for conversion come from?

Where did I say all fae? I am talking about the *tributes* for the fight against outsiders that Uju insists are not slaves, not all the troops, nor all fae.

I never even implied that I was talking about all Fae, so the idea comes from you there, not from me.
 
Also the argument that because you can convert your slaves into technically nonhumans that are also compelled to obey you, that means they aren't actually slaves is really bizarre.
 
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Have you actually read the series? We regularly see Winter Fae behaving as reasonably normal people for supernatural beings. There is absolutely no indication they are all mind-broken slaves. There is certainly a high level of abuse but nothing to indicate that it is applied on such a comprehensive and extreme level.



Where does the idea that ALLL the Winter Fae are children that were turned over for conversion come from? I thought that there were numerous civilizations and cultures in the Nevernever that provided the central courts with members who acquired relevant supernatural attributes as a consequence of their affiliation. They were supplemented by the Fae born into the courts and Human "recruited" for conversion.

This leaves room for a wide variety of arrangements that can be abusive, mutually-beneficial, or a mixture according to the specific circumstances.
According to Butcher ALL fae have a human origin of some kind including wyld fae. I mean they probably have adjacent things working with them that aren't fae. Not every fae was born from children though there were clearly many adults converted over the years, there's rape, normal intercourse with humans, changelings choosing to become fae, I think some beings have been turned into fae via deals and shapeshifting shit, uh the wyld hunt might have methods from what I've seen, wyld fae can just spawn which seems to contradict the all have a human origin thing but butcher has said that yes that does seem to be an inconsistency wink as a reply to that though.
 
Also the argument that because you can convert your slaves into technically nonhumans that are also compelled to obey you that means they aren't actually slaves is really bizarre.
Eh I'm not arguing the morality of this it seems more like a caste system than anything really. So not really slavery morally repugnant sure but people change the definition of slavery all the time.
 
Where did I say all fae? I am talking about the *tributes* for the fight against outsiders that Uju insists are not slaves, not all the troops, nor all fae.

I never even implied that I was talking about all Fae, so the idea comes from you there, not from me.

Thanks for the clarification. I seem to have misunderstood the general trend of this conversation.

Are you quoting something when you say "children given to fight your wars without any way to choose their fate for themselves". This and your previous comments make me think of Winter directly sending children to fight on the front lines and that very much doesn't match my recollection of canon. It doesn't make any military sense even by the extremely flimsy standards of the Dresden Files and forcing slaves to fight a faction defined by their ability to corrupt is an obvious route to failure.

My understanding is that the children "recruited" into Winter served the Court as mortal magic users or were eventually turned into Winter Fae. They would serve the military goals of Winter in the same way as any other Winter Fae and not be immediately deployed as cheap canon fodder. The overarching agenda would be to supplement the low natural birth rate of supernatural beings. Their service would be akin to the (admittedly morally dubious) practice of conscripting citizens rather than something as explicitly abusive as the Janissary.

There is obvious room for some serious abuse in this paradigm but it isn't quite as clear-cut as simple slavery. In many cases the "recruitment" can even be viewed positively. I would imagine that many young magic users (the most valuable targets) would find life in supernatural realm to be far superior to life as a normal human where their gifts would very often make them the subject of abuse. This is even before we get into the generally atrocious quality of life for most humans in the pre-modern era.

My thinking on this is inspired by Mercedes Lackey's writing in the SERRAted Edge and Doubled Edge Series. She presents the Fey practice of abducting children as positive (at least for the good faction) with them rescuing children from abusive situations while acquiring the new blood and human vitality that allow a society of immortals with minimal population growth and dangerous enemies to thrive in the long term. It obviously can't be anywhere nearly as clear cut in the Dresden Files but I still think the story works better if the practice is more than simple slavery.
 
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Honestly the constant bitching about the slavery of these people is a bit fucking annoying when the only responses to it is basically to kill the higher ups yolo. Instead of thinking of any alternatives. Which is kinda stupid since I'm fairly sure anyone taking over positions such as winter lady and queen in the future are bound to the same debts and favors and duties they have like a badge of office. Kill all the outsiders somehow or find a way to fix the problem and stop acting like its needless cause its really fucking annoying.
 
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Honestly the constant bitching about the slavery of these people is a bit fucking annoying when the only responses to it is basically to kill the higher ups yolo. Instead of thinking of any alternatives. Which is kinda stupid since I'm fairly sure anyone taking over positions such as winter lady and queen in the future are bound to the same debts and favors they have like a badge of office. Kill all the outsiders somehow or find a way to fix the problem and stop acting like its needless cause its really fucking annoying.

The first step to acting on the problem is acknowledging that there is one, Uju's insistence on Winter being *perfect*, *not having slaves* and *being necessary* is counterproductive for that, so of course it is talked about.

If you think that any future Winter lady that takes the position will be forced to use the same system, then replace the very system that forces that, either by replacing Winter by something else (an alliance of other actors, our kingdom, anything), or by removing the part where winter is forced to act this way by offering it alternatives (and an alliance actually can help there amongst other things).

Hard men making hard decisions while hard are not a solution, and saying *it's needed and we can't help it* is really not a good attitude, even worse for an exalted.

Children dying extremely young was normal at a time, and yet we got past it and now it is far, far lower than before, because we didn't give up and stopped searching for ways to change that.
 
See, the thing is, you keep insisting they're not slaves, except that they are, *children given to fight your wars without any way to choose their fate for themselves* are slaves, it doesn't matter that they're given by client states due to *ancient debts* they're still offered as slaves.

Yog already pointed it out: Janissaries are slaves soldiers, and that's what they are, in fact, the wikipedia definition of them does point out that they are given almost exactly the same way as the children you insists are not slaves.

Here: "Janissaries began as elite corps made up through the devşirme system of child levy enslavement, by which Christian Albanians, Bulgarians, Croats, Greeks, Romanians and Serbs were taken, levied, subjected to forced circumcision and conversion to Islam, and incorporated into the Ottoman army.[6] They became famed for internal cohesion cemented by strict discipline and order. Unlike typical slaves, they were paid regular salaries. Forbidden to marry before the age of 40 or engage in trade, their complete loyalty to the Sultan was expected."

They're slaves, so Winter does do slaves.
Which is not what Winter does.
Because, again, you are not putting soldiers who do not get a choice about their service
They have no investment. They WILL rebel.

Because lets be clear: The Janissaries regularly revolted, at an average of once every eighty years

If Winter was operating anything like the Janissary system, the Outer Gates would have collapsed ages ago.
 
The first step to acting on the problem is acknowledging that there is one, Uju's insistence on Winter being *perfect*, *not having slaves* and *being necessary* is counterproductive for that, so of course it is talked about.

If you think that any future Winter lady that takes the position will be forced to use the same system, then replace the very system that forces that, either by replacing Winter by something else (an alliance of other actors, our kingdom, anything), or by removing the part where winter is forced to act this way by offering it alternatives (and an alliance actually can help there amongst other things).

Hard men making hard decisions while hard are not a solution, and saying *it's needed and we can't help it* is really not a good attitude, even worse for an exalted.

Children dying extremely young was normal at a time, and yet we got past it and now it is far, far lower than before, because we didn't give up and stopped searching for ways to change that.
Ujus never once said he even likes winter much less called it perfect so your kinda undermining the effort she (kek called uju a she my bad)* goes through to give us objective information.

They are also quite literally bound by the promises they've made so they can't make any new promises that break previous ones. Mind you their very very intelligent about the deals they made so most likely they often leave outs in many of their deals just in case and many of their deals probably have time stamps on them and such. For an alliance thats likely totally doable if you give Mab an efficient solution she will fucking listen and peoples insistence its all for shits and giggles is wrong when we've gotten word of jim that she is more than willing to die protecting the gates. For a replacement we have literally nothing in our power set that would allow it maybe if we went full devil tiger we could, we have mitigations though, also possible ways to let them work past some of their promises with our own powers.
 
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If Winter was operating anything like the Janissary system, the Outer Gates would have collapsed ages ago.

:Citation Needed:

Do you have proof these soldiers don't rebel?

Or that they aren't brainwashed just enough that they will die before thinking of rebelling anyway?

They can absolutely be Janissaries, they do have all their characteristics.
 
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