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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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OK, looks like we are not using charms and we are being blunt.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 18, 2023 at 8:38 AM, finished with 106 posts and 25 votes.
  • [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    [X]Activate All Things Betray: 1 WP
    [X]Activate Hellscry Chakra: 1m
    [X]Activate IPM, Etiquette or Empathy Excellency if necessary
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[X] Crown Question: "What are the details of any attack vectors that are to be used on any of the people present in this meeting (focus: current scene [i.e. event]) within the next three hours?"
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] Activate ATB
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[X] Crown Question: "What are the forces that are currently considering attacking or fully intending to attack those sitting at this table within the next three hours? (Focus: Table people are siting at, alternatively, "the set of [chairs the four people meeting here are sitting on]")
    [X] Activate All Things Betray with Willpower and Hellscry Chakra to look for possible ambushes and better read Lara. And because you're curious what the aura a White Court Vampire that can ignore your Demonic Primacy looks like.
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[x] Spend Willpower for an auto success.
    [X] Check for who else is listening first
    -[X] Activate ATB
    -[X] Use a Crown on an internal security camera to ask "who and what else are currently observing this scene?"
    --[X] If no one hostile or unknown is observing this, then bluntly, all those who follow you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    --[X] If hostile or unknown parties are observing, then deceptively, try to continue the perception that it is a potion, though one you will not sell only share with friends
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[X] Crown Question: "What are the forces that are currently considering attacking or fully intending to attack those sitting at this table within the next three hours? (Focus: Table people are siting at, alternatively, "the set of [chairs the four people meeting here are sitting on]")
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[X] Activate IPM
    -[X] Activate Etiquette Excellency
    -[X] Activate ATB with willpower
    -[X] When next possible after the above active Hellscry Chakra
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Yzarc said:
Except, this was voted on specifically to automate the system, not to wait literal years to raise Essence.

We made that vote on the premise that the requirements would be reasonable. Waiting years for E4 is not reasonable.
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Yzarc said:
It was also NOT what we voted for.
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Yeah, we voted for automatic essence progression on the principle it would allows us to get the kingdom charm faster, seeing it reported to even later is not really something I'm ok with.

DragonParadox said:
OK so what happens to the time-scale if we cut everything in half to account for the fact that you do not have to max out everything for a reasonable build? After all you guys will also be spending XP for things like sorcery, the sight etc...

E1 to E2 at 38 XP
E2 to E3 at 116 XP
E3 to E4 at 266XP
E4 to E5 at 577 XP
E5 to E6 at 1189 XP.

That leaves you at E3 at the end of this arc
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Can agree with that.

Absolutely agrees with the revisions posted later.

Artemis1992 said:
We voted for an automatic progression based on spend XP, as determined by the QM.
And it was noted that this would be slower than the progression suggested by Holden.
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Artemis1992 said:
Becoming a world-shaking power should take a few years.
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We voted on the principle that Essence 3 would be attained faster this way without having it fighting against getting Charms, which is the true measure of power, a system that makes us take years to reach it and yet doesn't change our power progression and only gates one very anticipated charm just out of our reach is not ideal, to say the least.

Becoming a world shaking power is not actually significantly slowed down by our Essence level.

Yzarc said:
To give context. Reason for E3
1. Signature Charm.
2. Slightly more Essence to spend/store.

Reason for E4.
1. Kingdom and GSNF
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Kingdom is E3, not E4.
 
DragonParadox said:
I was talking about sorcery paths (the mortal kind), it is hard to know how many of those you guys will want to get, but I think it is fair to say it won't be all of them.
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Oh, yeah. I forgot those. Still, those are, in essence, mortal arts, so it's reasonable that they wouldn't affect essence progression of an exalt. Same reason why I didn't include stuff like familiars into the calculations (though I am tempted to include them into Lydia's model, as she's very clearly built to have familiars).
 
DragonParadox said:
That is a fair point and one I had not considered, could someone make it so you cannot activate a reflexive action by being subtle enough with shaping/UMI. Someone stopping your heart definitely isn't subtle I will say that much and neither is removing a whole class of magic from someone's brain. I was mostly thinking about perception filters and the like. That said it would get very subjective very fast and would require me to rule on what is 'subtle enough' in an nontransparent way so for the sake of not getting into (mechanically unsupported) weeds I think it would be better to just table the whole things. You can always trigger a reflexive action when the magic would be affecting you rather than your environment.

Keep in mind though this applies to other people as much as it does to you so people like Olivia are uniquely vulnerable to heavy weights with UMI protection on tap.
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A god stopping your heart with pure will isn't subtle after the fact.
If you're already under the effect that's mind crushing you or turning you into a donkey or blending your brain into the rough consistency of a banana smoothie, it doesnt matter how obvious it is at that point, its already applied the effect.

Like when Vittorio Malvora used an Outsider shaping effect to whammy everyone in the Raith Deeps, for example.
No-one saw it coming, no-one could act or use magic while under it.
Required the intervention of Lash to allow Dresden to even attempt to defend himself, and she died for it.


That said, Mab removing/blocking fire magic from Dresden's brain was so subtle that Dresden never noticed.
It took Molly, his apprentice, to tell, and she only noticed after several days and multiple firefights.

===
Exalts are a class of entity that were designed to fight a war with Primordials and their Second and Third Circles.
Thats precisely the sort of antagonists who can be subtle enough to hit you with UMI stealthily or with surprise, if those are allowed mechanically.

If the default wasn't that Exalts could defend against that sort of thing, the Primordial War would have been very short and sad.
Its not like there's a time limit on how long a UMI effect has to act.

===
And there's the other argument worth noting.

Social combat where the stakes involve UMI or Shaping that you cant defend against means that you risk losing control of your character, or key parts of your character. This is evidenced in the Dresdenverse when Mab simply, without consultation, removes Fire Magic from Dresden's character sheet for several days.

Which would be like Mab making Molly forget about her demonsword in terms of impact.

And players HATE losing agency. Thats why we bought IPM so early.
There's a reason in Exalted 2E that people could spend Willpower to ignore an argument.
Or literally nope out of social combat they are losing by going Join Battle.

DragonParadox said:
Keep in mind though this applies to other people as much as it does to you so people like Olivia are uniquely vulnerable to heavy weights with UMI protection on tap.
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I'd actually argue that.
Maggie LeFay, Dresden's dad, died in childbirth due to an entropy curse thrown at her to kill her by her ex.
Said entropy curse came from Lord Raith, elder vampire and King of the White Court.

Maggie LeFay couldn't defend against the whammy that killed her.
Lord Raith, however, couldn't defend himself against her retaliatory death curse that stopped him from feeding for three decades plus.

Note that both death curses and entropy curses qualify as Shaping.

And its also worth noting that wizards and other mortals in the Dresdenverse can compel spirits, even Outsiders, to identify themselves. Just by asking three times. We see Dresden do it to Fae iirc, and we definitely see him do it to two Outsiders.
Thats, by any definition, UMI.
Earth-Destroyer said:
Your forgetting the fallacy of survivor bias is a thing, of course wizards over a 100 will have somewhat decent mental defenses, they won't make it that long if they don't.
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My dude.
We have read, at this point, 17 books and multiple short stories and comics set in the Dresden Files.
None of them suggest that this is a risk factor.

Dresden doesnt behave as if young wizards(Dresden is only 40ish by the latest books) get regularly winnowed by supernatural predators. Molly lived on the streets for around a year as the Ragged Lady and all she had to worry about were the Fomor. We dont see wizard boy toys or girl toys as ornaments in Maeve's entourage or sitting at Lord Raith's beck and call.

Elaine Mallory fled to the Summer Court after escaping DuMorne and walked away with her brain apparently intact.
Hannah Ascher fled the Wardens for several years before eventually falling in with the Fellowship of St Giles, and no-one picked her up as a shiny bauble.

Its just not a thing.

Its so not a thing that the one time in story that we see the Red Court allegedly kidnap a wizard in Dead Beat, the White Council literally deploys strategic weapon equivalents to the battlefield in the form of the Senior Council taking the field.
Wizards dont play those games.
Yzarc said:
Except Essence =/= Power.
All Essence does is lock certain charms away or effects excellence.

Unless DP manually locks even more charms against Essence requirements, Molly at E5 is not that different from Molly at E2.
It was also NOT what we voted for.
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Not quite.

In ExWoD, Essence tier is both about the size of your Essence pool, AND also how much Essence you can spend in a turn.
Molly, as a Solaroid, can spend [Essence] motes per turn, and has 20m at E5.
Lydia, as a Terrestrial, can spend [Essence/2]motes per turn, rounded up, and has 10m at E5.

Its one of the reasons why I think Lydia should have been a Liminal-class Exalt, instead of being a Dragonblood-class one.
She'd have started with 8m instead of 6m, been able to spend 2m/turn at E2 and 3m/turn at E4, and had 12m at E5 instead of 10m.
 
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uju32 said:
Exalts are a class of entity that were designed to fight a war with Primordials and their Second and Third Circles.
Thats precisely the sort of antagonists who can be subtle enough to hit you with UMI stealthily or with surprise, if those are allowed mechanically.
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*The Shadow of All Things tries to look innocent in the background*

uju32 said:
If the default wasn't that Exalts could defend against that sort of thing, the Primordial War would have been very short and sad.
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*The Shadow of All Things tries even harder to look innoncent.*
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on May 18, 2023 at 9:57 AM, finished with 112 posts and 25 votes.
  • [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    [X]Activate All Things Betray: 1 WP
    [X]Activate Hellscry Chakra: 1m
    [X]Activate IPM, Etiquette or Empathy Excellency if necessary
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[X] Crown Question: "What are the details of any attack vectors that are to be used on any of the people present in this meeting (focus: current scene [i.e. event]) within the next three hours?"
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] Activate ATB
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[X] Crown Question: "What are the forces that are currently considering attacking or fully intending to attack those sitting at this table within the next three hours? (Focus: Table people are siting at, alternatively, "the set of [chairs the four people meeting here are sitting on]")
    [X] Activate All Things Betray with Willpower and Hellscry Chakra to look for possible ambushes and better read Lara. And because you're curious what the aura a White Court Vampire that can ignore your Demonic Primacy looks like.
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[x] Spend Willpower for an auto success.
    [X] Check for who else is listening first
    -[X] Activate ATB
    -[X] Use a Crown on an internal security camera to ask "who and what else are currently observing this scene?"
    --[X] If no one hostile or unknown is observing this, then bluntly, all those who follow you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    --[X] If hostile or unknown parties are observing, then deceptively, try to continue the perception that it is a potion, though one you will not sell only share with friends
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[X] Crown Question: "What are the forces that are currently considering attacking or fully intending to attack those sitting at this table within the next three hours? (Focus: Table people are siting at, alternatively, "the set of [chairs the four people meeting here are sitting on]")
    [X] Bluntly, all those who serve you are granted control of aspects of inner darkness that would be otherwhise outside their control
    -[X] But that service is not binding. Service grants protection, but those under your protection can leave at any time.
    -[X] Activate IPM
    -[X] Activate Etiquette Excellency
    -[X] Activate ATB with willpower
    -[X] When next possible after the above active Hellscry Chakra
Click to expand...
 
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Arc 7 Post 9: Parry and Riposte
  • Threadmarks
    • Parry and Riposte ​

    31th of October 2006 A.D.

    At the end of the day you do not have anything to hide, nor reasonably could you. Thomas might be able to hold out against his sister if she turned out the metaphorical thumbscrews, but Isabela? No, much as it would hurt her pride to admit it she would not be matching gazes with the Lara Raith anytime soon and that is not even accounting for the Jade Dogs, all of them exiles, unable to bear the weight of life among White Court. "Those who serve are granted protection from their inner darkness, though they can abandon both as they see fit not only with deed, but even just with thought."

    Micro-expressions flit over her face like clouds driven before a squall eyes widen in disbelief, narrow in sudden suspicion, they look to Thomas, they look to Lydia, for conformation, for some chink of weakness... and it is all of it a lie. Beneath her the emotions that play upon her perfect features like shadow puppets on the wall the real Lara Raith is as calm as the waters of an icy lake on a day without wind. What lurks beneath you do not know... yet

    "That is a remarkable statement you understand," she says after a moment. "Beings, spirits, all have natures, all have wants that need filling, to deny them so utterly not by understanding, but simply by pledge is the domain of powers divine or otherworldly. Are you a god miss Carpenter?"

    "What a strange question to ask? Don't you think so Lydia?" You turn to the other girl. "I mean on the one hand she demands that I take on a title or spurn it and one the other she assigns me one." 'Miss' like 'Mister' after all had belonged to the nobility before the middle class, though only the esoteric courtesies of the hidden world would count that as an actual title of nobility, or for that matter count misappropriating someone's titles as a faux pas.

    "Are you sure you wish to deny your own overlordship so lightly? I think Thomas will be quite sad," she counters, sly laughter dancing in her eyes even as her lips are still and perfect as ever.

    Without meaning to your eyes jump to his face only to find the vampire in question shaking his head in exasperation. "It's good to see you having fun Lara, but some of us have a business to run."

    It is at that moment that Lydia apparently feels that you need a breather and provides it in the most time honored way. "I have to go to the washroom. Molly want to come with?'

    You do not need saving from the big bad, vampire, you don't... but it would come out even worse if you were to refuse so you go along with her, leaving Thomas in the company of his sister. The fact that she does care about him in her own way is... moderately reassuring at least.

    The bathroom is nothing to write home about, clean though the merciless white light lays bare the nicks and scrapes in the tile and the paper tower dispenser is out of order, not that you have very long to consider it. As soon as Lydia clicks the door closed she presses a message into your hand, not parchment sealed in wax or anything, just a strip of common writing paper with a message in a smooth flowing hand, you imagine to be Lara's.

    "She slipped me this when we shook hands." your friend says, but you can hardly hear her given the gravity of the message.

    Winter will seek your aid in a conflict of universal import, but there have been signs of theirmanipulation by the enemy. Any shift in the status quo might be their work, causing more harm than good. Make no bargains with Mab if you value your life, your sanity or our soul. This is no a war for neophytes, no matter how much power one may hold.

    Burn this note

    When combined with what you know as her third reason for being here... Outsiders are manipulating Mab, or at least the highest countils of Winter. At least Lara believes it so, you correct yourself. If that is the case then she would be worried about fey watchers and those are far less likely than ones of the White Court to have meddled with mortal feromancy enough to tap the phone lines

    "Do you have a lighter?" you ask Lydia, without much hope.

    She shakes her head.

    At the very least using an arcane blow torch to incinerate the note before you flush the ashes down the toilet should make it so no common magic could reconstitute it

    Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 11/12

    "Soooo are you actually going to heed the warning?" Lydia asks. "Dad does not want to talk to me about whatever the conflict it is, but he says it's real and 'most perilous'." Her accent gets a little stronger on the last two words, the way it sometimes does when she is stressed.

    [] No, this just makes it all the more important for someone to help the Winter Court

    [] Yes, I did not really want to get tangled up with Mab anyway

    [] Lets just get the negotiations with Lara done first and then once Mab makes her offer I'll see

    [] Write in

    OOC: Skulduggery ahoy
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • we now have a question. how are the outsiders manipulating the winter court? lets find an opportunity to ask it.

    [X] Lets just get the negotiations with Lara done first and then once Mab makes her offer I'll see
     
    [X] Lets just get the negotiations with Lara done first and then once Mab makes her offer I'll see
     
    Not a decision to make now, IMO. Lara's 'concern' may or not be genuine, but she is a True Venator at war with the Outsiders, so there is genuine need for caution from her POV, if they really do have indications of Outsider influence in Winter already. IIRC, however, this would be very early in the timeline for that, right?

    [X] Lets just get the negotiations with Lara done first and then once Mab makes her offer I'll see
     
    [X] Lets just get the negotiations with Lara done first and then once Mab makes her offer I'll see

    I'll just leave it open ended for the future.
     
    @DragonParadox any chance we can insert a crown question using the note as a focus before destroying it? It seems like it would be a useful focus to learn what enemy Lara speaks of, or what signs she speaks of.
     
    Which question should we ask?

    Something like, 'What influence do Outsiders have over Winter as the writer of this note fear?'
     
    It could be that she has knowledge of the intention or plot to subvert Winter rather than subversion now.

    Although I wager the best place to be is close to the drama, we can't really afford to stay away and potentially leave Winter to be weakened.
    And really, a Solaroid's place is in the fight for ordered reality even if Molly isn't equipped with war charms.
     
    [X] Lets just get the negotiations with Lara done first and then once Mab makes her offer I'll see

    We are pretty much involved in the war against the outsiders by our very nature, by our friendship with Harry and because we do keep all our stuff in this and nearby worlds.
    I'd say any day when we make Winter pay us for things we want to do anyway is a good day.
     
    [X] Lets just get the negotiations with Lara done first and then once Mab makes her offer I'll see
    - [X] I don't want to get tangled up with Mab and Winter in the first place, but the fact that I exist is going to change the status quo. Entanglements may be unavoidable.
     
    Yog said:
    @DragonParadox any chance we can insert a crown question using the note as a focus before destroying it? It seems like it would be a useful focus to learn what enemy Lara speaks of, or what signs she speaks of.
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    Just to chime in here:
    I am usually the person to object to overuse or inappropriate use of Crown questions.
    But this actually strikes me as a reasonable use of a Crown question.

    You'd have to frame the question better, though.

    @DragonParadox
    Still digesting the update
    QUESTION
    Does going to the bathroom count as a scene change?
    And would leaving the bathroom and going back to talk to Lara count as another scene change?
     
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    Stop being scared of anima flare nobody knows what it means it could just be the equivalent of shouting for all anybody else knows. Bonfire fire level doesn't even exist now, not like going max anima will get an instant kill squad of DragonBlood deployed.
     
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    Alratan said:
    Which question should we ask?

    Something like, 'What influence do Outsiders have over Winter as the writer of this note fear?'
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    I fear that would be too weak a link. Maybe "what are the signs of the enemy manipulation upon the Winter Court this note alleges of?". Or, if we make a leap and ask "what are the signs of the enemy manipulation upon the Winter Court this note alleges of that are not false trails?"
     
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