Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1)Mab's a true immortal.
Like all true immortals, killing her requires the date of Halloween, or that she be in the vicinity of the Stone Table, or possibly a superweapon or a specific nemesis(in her case Titania), and even the superweapon isnt guaranteed to prevent her coming back.

Unless the QM says otherwise, I suspect that the mechanics might be similar to the mechanics protecting Sol Invictus in Ex2.
Might.


2)Winter and Summer both linked to and apparently help regulate the world's climate systems.
We see Summer has a strong role in the genesis and regulation of epidemics and new diseases as well.
We are well off from knowing everything they are involved in.


3)Mother Summer's definition of alright and really bad might differ just a touch from our own.
Do recall what the contents of the jars on her shelf are.


3)Harry could tell you that killing Mab is a horrible idea.
He saw the Courts at war in Summer Knight with the Sight. He saw the Stone Table.
He knows that Maeve is the next in line, and he has a good idea of what her character is like.

1. I think a spirit-killer charm is all we need for Mab. Remember, even the Mothers and capital D Dragons don't want to intrude in the mortal world, not because they care about the collateral damage of their presence, but because they're vulnerable in the mortal world. WoJ says it's not likely but possible enough for a good enough mortal to take them out, to the point that the most powerful entities we know of, barring angelic entities, are wary of exiting the Nevernever.

In that light, I'm fairly certain MiM is all we need for Mab.

2. 3. I'm not looking at Mother Summer. I'm looking at Rashid the Gatekeeper, the guy in the know, the one who had the least incentive to lie to Harry. He told Harry, flat out, Mab dying and a Winter Lady taking her position wouldn't cause issues of the reality-threatening kind, unless the Outsiders happen to be attacking (which, according to him, doesn't happen all the time).

4. Again. I'm not saying we should kill Mab now. I'm saying that when we are capable of killing her, we kill Maeve first, find a suitable Winter Lady, and then make that Lady the Queen via regicide. No one's talking about making Maeve the Winter Queen.

I mean we've got word the eye of balor can do some serious damage its clearly more metaphysical than biggatons. I'm still wrapping my head around the way back argument of the eye of balor being unimpressive since it isn't that impressive in biggatons like that means absolutely anything when we're talking about magic bullshit.

The Eye of Balor is very unimpressive. Even disregarding the fact that it did all of jack shit in an entire book (it killed literally nobody of importance), there's a reason Dexterity is the God Stat: if you can hit your opponent and they can't hit you, it doesn't matter how hard you or they hit.

Similarly, it doesn't matter how hard the Eye of Balor hits when 1. It can be blocked, 2. It can be dodged (really easily), 3. It takes a minute to reload, 4. It can be shorted out by rain, and 5. It can only blow up a city block worth of mundane material.

Frankly, even without it Ethniu could've taken out all the supernatural heavyweights we've seen on-screen. Mab getting OTK'd by it shows more how weak Mab is in a straight fight than how strong the Eye is. (Namely, Mab is stupid in a fight. Blocking that shot instead of doing as everyone else in Battleground had been doing, and just dodging it, shows just how suboptimal her decision-making is. Good at plots and plans, bad at throwing hands.)
 
Last edited:
1. I think a spirit-killer charm is all we need for Mab. Remember, even the Mothers and capital D Dragons don't want to intrude in the mortal world, not because they care about the collateral damage of their presence, but because they're vulnerable in the mortal world. WoJ says it's not likely but possible enough for a good enough mortal to take them out, to the point that the most powerful entities we know of, barring angelic entities, are wary of exiting the Nevernever.

In that light, I'm fairly certain MiM is all we need for Mab.

2. 3. I'm not looking at Mother Summer. I'm looking at Rashid the Gatekeeper, the guy in the know, the one who had the least incentive to lie to Harry. He told Harry, flat out, Mab dying and a Winter Lady taking her position wouldn't cause issues of the reality-threatening kind, unless the Outsiders happen to be attacking (which, according to him, doesn't happen all the time).

4. Again. I'm not saying we should kill Mab now. I'm saying that when we are capable of killing her, we kill Maeve first, find a suitable Winter Lady, and then make that Lady the Queen via regicide. No one's talking about making Maeve the Winter Queen.



The Eye of Balor is very unimpressive. Even disregarding the fact that it did all of jack shit in an entire book (it killed literally nobody of importance), there's a reason Dexterity is the God Stat: if you can hit your opponent and they can't hit you, it doesn't matter how hard you or they hit.

Similarly, it doesn't matter how hard the Eye of Balor hits when 1. It can be blocked, 2. It can be dodged (really easily), 3. It takes a minute to reload, 4. It can be shorted out by rain, and 5. It can only blow up a city block worth of mundane material.

Frankly, even without it Ethniu could've taken out all the supernatural heavyweights we've seen on-screen. Mab getting OTK'd by it shows more how weak Mab is in a straight fight than how strong the Eye is.
we literally got word of god that multiple denarians and the wild hunt would do jack shit against mab in a fight if it came to one. Also it doesn't matter if the showing wasn't good and it doesn't matter if it can be dodged the same exact can be said of so much shit in the dresden files its not even funny. Most things can be avoided potentially if we're being honest thats been a fact of combat in the dresden files for fucking ever.

Also why are you ignoring the word of jim killing mab can cause weather disasters? Also sometimes its not even that their afraid its that they can do jack and shit in the mortal world like we've got word of jim gods for the most part can do barely anything in the world aside from movies and professional sports unless they ground themselves to mortal levels.
 
Last edited:
I can't comment on the rest, but get the general impression that Victor Sells was supremely unconcerned about the possible bad side effects that might happen to his clients if he botched an alchemy roll.
It isnt charity. If you wannabe a drug boss, poisoning your clients is bad for business.
If he botched alchemy rolls, he would have wrecked his own dealers and clientele.
And brought legal heat down on his head.

In order to get away with this as long as he did in Chicago with both Dresden in town and Donald Morgan regularly lurking in the neighborhood, his production operation had to be pretty reliable.
After all, neither Dresden nor Morgan got a sniff of anything off until he started murdering people with ritual magic.

He was producing what sounds like thousands, if not tens of thousands of doses of Three Eye at a time, enough to materially impact the street drug trade in the Chicago metro area. His only assistants were Helen Beckitt and her now-dead husband, and both of them were only involved because he promised them revenge on Marcone, who he viewed as a local crime rival.

If he botched as little as 1 in 100, he would have poisoned a good number of his buyers.

Furthermore?
He did this at the same time he was building kaiju scorpion drones and mastering demon summoning and death rituals.
So it looks like it got pretty routinely easy for him.
 
if shit couldn't be dodged dresden would of been a smear on the ground by what book 2? The amount of times dresden has been utterly outclassed is countless really.
 
1. I think a spirit-killer charm is all we need for Mab. Remember, even the Mothers and capital D Dragons don't want to intrude in the mortal world, not because they care about the collateral damage of their presence, but because they're vulnerable in the mortal world. WoJ says it's not likely but possible enough for a good enough mortal to take them out, to the point that the most powerful entities we know of, barring angelic entities, are wary of exiting the Nevernever.
What? I'm going to badly need a quote on this. I'm sure I saw WoG just the opposite, I think it was about how Ferrovax's mystical weight was too heavy for him to go all out outside the Neverver without causing damage to the world or something like that.

Not to mention this "vulnerability"? It's bullshit they are all immortals that need to be killed in certain ways, like on certain dates (Hallowen), certain weapons (cross swords), certain places (stone table) etc.
 
Last edited:
What? I'm going to badly need a quote on this. I'm sure I saw WoG just the opposite, I think it was about how Ferrovax's mystical weight was too heavy for him to go all out outside the Neverver without causing damage to the world or something like that.

Here ya go:

The Mothers are extremely powerful beings, I mean, they're really really well, you can tell because they hardly ever show up on the real world. In the Dresden Files universe if you don't show up on the real world, it's because you're too big to walk around there. For instance, I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn't bear his weight, it's not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it's that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you're in the real world, well, the problem is that you're in the world, and you're kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they're fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough.

Yes, the superweights of the supernatural world do damage to the world by their mere presence. They also don't give a shit about that, they just don't wanna get whacked on the off chance a hero (*cough* Michael) finds them and gets lucky.
 
Last edited:
Here ya go:



Yes, the superweights of the supernatural world do damage to the world by their mere presence. They also don't give a shit about that, they just don't wanna get whacked on the off chance a hero (*cough* Michael) finds them and gets lucky.
In fairness it's probably unfair to say all of them are afraid. Some of them by their very nature might not be afraid, might be responsible, and you know benevolent spirits and gods and such likely exist. The former definitely do exist.
 
1. I think a spirit-killer charm is all we need for Mab. Remember, even the Mothers and capital D Dragons don't want to intrude in the mortal world, not because they care about the collateral damage of their presence, but because they're vulnerable in the mortal world. WoJ says it's not likely but possible enough for a good enough mortal to take them out, to the point that the most powerful entities we know of, barring angelic entities, are wary of exiting the Nevernever.

In that light, I'm fairly certain MiM is all we need for Mab.

2. 3. I'm not looking at Mother Summer. I'm looking at Rashid the Gatekeeper, the guy in the know, the one who had the least incentive to lie to Harry. He told Harry, flat out, Mab dying and a Winter Lady taking her position wouldn't cause issues of the reality-threatening kind, unless the Outsiders happen to be attacking (which, according to him, doesn't happen all the time).

4. Again. I'm not saying we should kill Mab now. I'm saying that when we are capable of killing her, we kill Maeve first, find a suitable Winter Lady, and then make that Lady the Queen via regicide. No one's talking about making Maeve the Winter Queen.
1) We saw Ferrovax at Bianca's ball, and again in Peace Talks.
We also saw Dresden summon Mother Winter to Chicago in Cold Days, so we know that it isnt true that they dont come to Reality for fear of death. They dont come to Reality often because Reality cant bear their full weight.

Capital-D Dragons have died in Reality and the NeverNever, so its not a thing that staying in the NeverNever is safer.
The NeverNever was where Summer Lady Aurora was killed, and Reality was where Summer Lady Lily and Winter Lady Maeve were killed. Death is a factor of your being involved with mortal affairs, not your location.


2)Murder is Meat helps you ensure that stuff you've killed stays dead, it doesnt actually help you kill them any better.
Furthermore, Defense Primacy is still a thing here, so if Mab has a conceptual effect protecting her from being permakilled outside of particular circumstances, you'd still be shit out of luck.


3)Thats inaccurate. The exact quote is, and I quote:
I hate trying to be smart under time pressure. "This," I said, pointing up at the gates. "What the hell? How long has this attack been going on?"
"Always," he said. "There are always Outsiders trying to tear their way in. There are always forces in place to stop them. In our age, it is the task of Winter to defend these boundaries, with the help of certain others to support them. Think of them as . . . an immune system for the mortal world."
I felt my eyes get wide. "An immune system . . . What happens if it . . . you know, if it breaks down for a bit?"
"Pardon?" the Gatekeeper asked.
"Uh, it gets a glitch. Like, if somebody new took over or something and things had to reorganize around here . . ."
"Most years, it would pose no major difficulty," he said.
"What about this year?"
"This year," he said, "it could be problematic."
"Problematic."
"Rather severely so." Rashid studied my face and then started to nod. "I see. There are things happening back in Winter. That's why Mother Summer brought you here. To show you what was at stake."

I swallowed and nodded. "No pressure or anything."
Rashid's face reacted at that. I couldn't say what the exact mix of emotion on it was, though one of them was a peculiar kind of empathy. He set his staff aside and gripped my upper arms with his hands. "Listen to me, because this is important."
"Okay," I said.
"You get used to it," he said.
I blinked. "What? That's it?"
He tilted his head to look at me obliquely with his good eye.
No major difficulty is relative.


4)Rashid the Gatekeeper is human. Mortal. Fallible. Its entirely possible for him to be mistaken, espedially about future events.

See when he tried to stop Dresden getting into a confrontation with the White Council in Turn Coat because he foresaw that he'd die. And yet because he missed the fact that Dresden had bound Demonreach, his judgement was way off.
Or when he told Dresden outright at tge Outer Gates that he feared Dresden wouldnt live long enough to mature to that stage.

Furthermore, that entire passage has him trying to pep Dresden up.


4)You intend to arrange to murder Mab's daughter, then somehow manipulate Winter itself to handpick her successor, then murder Mab herself. And expect that noone reacts in the meantime. Not Mab, not her allies, and not the various wannabes who would immediately grasp for power.

That seems....implausible.
 
Last edited:
On that I agree with you. That move of hers was stupid.
Maybe it was.
Maybe she had other considerations in mind at the time. Morale ones, for example, since Ethniu's power and that of the Eye was based in part on the fear it was able to evoke in the surroundings, and that having someone survive its effects might work.

The impression I got was that in getting Ethniu to focus on her, it was deliberately timed to get Ethniu and her supporting forces to over-commit at that time.
But I havent read that book in its entirety, so I cant swear to it.
 
@TheGrape that same quote of yours has exactly what I said:

In the Dresden Files universe if you don't show up on the real world, it's because you're too big to walk around there. For instance, I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn't bear his weight, it's not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it's that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that.

The reason they don't leave the nevernever is that both reality starts to crack (contrary to what you said: they don't care about the damage from their presence), they have interests in the human world so they don't want to destroy the place of where they get their stuff.

If you're in the real world, well, the problem is that you're in the world, and you're kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they're fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough.

As for the threats to them, they are very specific things and many only had to be taken into account on earth or just have a very high probability of being faced in reality, for example: God certainly will not send the swords of the cross on a mission to the depths of the nevernever, when their responsibility is to protect humanity and prevent the end of the world (reality).

Edit:
1) We saw Ferrovax at Bianca's ball, and again in Peace Talks.
We also saw Dresden summon Mother Winter to Chicago in Cold Days, so we know that it isnt true that they dont come to Reality for fear of death. They dont come to Reality often because Reality cant bear their full weight.

Capital-D Dragons have died in Reality and the NeverNever, so its not a thing that staying in the NeverNever is safer.
The NeverNever was where Summer Lady Aurora was killed, and Reality was where Summer Lady Lily and Winter Lady Maeve were killed. Death is a factor of your being involved with mortal affairs, not your location.
As Uju said
 
Last edited:
How Spirit killers from exalted work is that if you damage an opponent and trigger the respawn mechanic, the spirit killer stops the respawn mechanic.

So unless the said person has a scene long perfect, they will die when killed.
 
1) We saw Ferrovax at Bianca's ball, and again in Peace Talks.
We also saw Dresden summon Mother Winter to Chicago in Cold Days, so we know that it isnt true that they dont come to Reality for fear of death. They dont come to Reality often because Reality cant bear their full weight.

Capital-D Dragons have died in Reality and the NeverNever, so its not a thing that staying in the NeverNever is safer.
The NeverNever was where Summer Lady Aurora was killed, and Reality was where Summer Lady Lily and Winter Lady Maeve were killed. Death is a factor of your being involved with mortal affairs, not your location.


2)Murder is Meat helps you ensure that stuff you've killed stays dead, it doesnt actually help you kill them any better.
Furthermore, Defense Primacy is still a thing here, so if Mab has a conceptual effect protecting her from being permakilled outside of particular circumstances, you'd still be shit out of luck.


3)Thats inaccurate. The exact quote is, and I quote:

No major difficulty is relative.


4)Rashid the Gatekeeper is human. Mortal. Fallible. Its entirely possible for him to be mistaken, espedially about future events.

See when he tried to stop Dresden getting into a confrontation with the White Council in Turn Coat because he foresaw that
And yet because he missed the fact that Dresden had bound Demonreach, his judgement was way off.
Or when he told Dresden outright at tge Outer Gates that he feared Dresden wouldnt live long enough to mature to that stage.

Furthermore, that entire passage has him trying to pep Dresden up.


4)You intend to arrange to murder Mab's daughter, then somehow manipulate Winter itself to handpick her successor, then murder Mab herself. And expect that noone reacts in the meantime. Not Mab, not her allies, and not the various wannabes who would immediately grasp for power.

That seems....implausible.

1. I'll like to direct your attention to the quote I just pulled, but here's it again for your perusal:
So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you're in the real world, well, the problem is that you're in the world, and you're kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they're fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough.

2. If Mab has such a thing, maybe. We don't know if she has such a thing or even if it'll be effective against MiM. And even if all that's true, so we just summon Mab on Halloween or someshit. Make a deal with Summer, make a superweapon of our own, as an Exalted there's nothing we can't do. We just need to make sure what we do is something we should do, which morally I believe it is.

3. Yeah, and? No major difficulty if somebody new took over and reorganizing needed to be done =/= reality-threatening issues. I fail to see what your point is, asides from agreeing with my point.

4. So, you don't trust Mother Summer, you don't trust Rashid the Gatekeeper, you only trust your own belief that Mab's death be very very bad to the point we shouldn't kill her.

I'm not going to lie, I don't trust you (on this specific subject) either. It's entirely possible for you to be mistaken, especially about future events.

5. Kill the Winter Lady (Maeve) for being a monster. Wait for the next Winter Lady to be chosen. Repeat. Then, once they've gotten the message and picked someone suitable/most of the monsters are dead and it falls to someone less horrible, kill Mab.

Not easy, not soon, but very simple and plausible. (This is all just a hypothetical plan for when we're strong enough, which we aren't, and subject to change upon further information, but it remains a possible course of action)

Maybe it was.
Maybe she had other considerations in mind at the time. Morale ones, for example, since Ethniu's power and that of the Eye was based in part on the fear it was able to evoke in the surroundings, and that having someone survive its effects might work.

The impression I got was that in getting Ethniu to focus on her, it was deliberately timed to get Ethniu and her supporting forces to over-commit at that time.
But I havent read that book in its entirety, so I cant swear to it.

Here's a breakdown of what happened:
1. Mab takes a hit from the Eye and gets knocked on her ass.
2. Without the Eye to protect them, the Fomor army gets swarmed by Molly's army and Odin and the Wild Hunt.
3. Harry rides Mab's super-unicorn and summons Titania.
4. Titania, showing off her vastly superior sense of tactics, chooses not to block the Eye but rather dabs on Ethniu (literally dances) and fucking redirects her superweapon into the air.
5. After redirecting the "super"weapon, Titania then turns the Eye off by making it rain and washing away the Eye's power source (all the despair in the city)
6. Alone, without her army, no longer buffed by despair or the Eye, Ethniu then proceeds to hand Titania, Odin, and the Erlking their asses on a silver platter. She plants Titania head-first into the dirt like a carrot, roasts the Erlking like a turkey, and robs Odin blind of Gungnir.
7. All the while, Mab is busy being useless and doing nothing because she tried to headbutt the Eye head-on and no longer has the juice to do anything. (The other three immortals at least wore Ethniu down for everyone else to bumrush. Mab prevented Ethniu from using the Eye against her army when she could've just had Harry summon Titania and 4v1 Ethniu, given Titania could've redirected the Eye)

The reason they don't leave the nevernever is that both reality starts to crack (contrary to what you said: they don't care about the damage from their presence), they have interests in the human world so they don't want to destroy the place of where they get their stuff.


As for the threats to them, they are very specific things and many only had to be taken into account on earth or just have a very high probability of being faced in reality, for example: God certainly will not send the swords of the cross on a mission to the depths of the nevernever, when their responsibility is to protect humanity and prevent the end of the world (reality).

1. I admit nowhere in that quote does it say they don't care about the damage from their presence. Please direct me to the part of the quote where it says they care about the damage from their presence (what interests could a Dragon/Mother have?)

2. Note Jim didn't say only the Knights are a danger to them. Note he didn't even say you needed to be fast and good and lucky enough.
All he said was that if someone was fast enough, or good enough, or even just lucky, that they could kill a Dragon/Mother.
And we sure don't see Dragons wandering around when it ain't Halloween and they're supposedly not susceptible to sudden death. We see 'em hiding in the Nevernever, because you sure as hell don't survive for a long time by taking risks on bad odds.
 
Last edited:
Even decades would be questionable at this point, because it would be obvious to the clientele.
And, more of an issue, mortal authorities.
He is using absolute effects, that much we know.

It's entirely possible that nobody would even consider how long he has been there, or that he has been unchanging for decades, because he doesn't want that to happen, and so it doesn't.

If angels are even halfway as bullshit as they are supposed to be, that one is easy. Even Molly has a Charm for making it impossible to question her presence after all.
1)Mab's a true immortal.
Like all true immortals, killing her requires the date of Halloween, or that she be in the vicinity of the Stone Table, or possibly a superweapon or a specific nemesis(in her case Titania), and even the superweapon isnt guaranteed to prevent her coming back.

Unless the QM says otherwise, I suspect that the mechanics might be similar to the mechanics protecting Sol Invictus in Ex2.
Might.
Sol can't be beaten unless he goes against his convictions, mechanically speaking surpresses his virtues, right?

Mab is clearly a different case, DP already mentioned that if she would die without Halloween/Stone Table or a Spirit-Killer she would reform in Arctis Tor, as usual for a spirit in WoD.

If she were truly impossible to kill, that wouldn't be relevant at all.
 
Last edited:
Catching up.

1)Wars no. Inflection points, and the accompanying disruption? Yes.
At least in Dresdenverse lore so far; angels dont appear to name themselves, or allow themselves to be identified as such otherwise. Everytime an angel shows up to a mortal in a form that makes them identifiable as one, it tends to imply

Dresden's met at least three as of Skin Games; Uriel is the only one thats named, and he only showed up as himself after Mab identified outed him. When he intervened in Small Favor, Dresden never even knew he was there.
The other two he only noticed because he was dead at the time.

Still, personal knowledge of a 17 year old is plausibly limited, especially with her Occult 5 being a little out of date.
And Usum has no applicable knowledge of the angelic host(s) in this AU to cover for the gaps in her knowledge.

===
2)Counterpoint:
The events of last Halloween, with the failure of power and advanced technology in the city of Chicago, the roaming undead, the multiple firefights in the street, and the revenant TRex. Molly would have been witness to the power failures and tech issues as a Chicago resident, and Bob presumably told her about the rest when he talked about the zombie T-rex.

Someone trying to openly assassinate Mab is likely to have as much regard for the Masquerade as the Kemmlerites did in Dead Beat. Doesnt necessarily mean they'll succeed, but the splash radius will be...dire.

I'd be entirely happy for a ruling that nothing is gonna happen.
Because thats been my private worry ever since she scheduled a meeting in Chicago for Halloween, that something or someone is going to make a swing at this time.

===
3)Is that how you're ruling it?
Because I've been thinking of this as a formal agreement between an Infernal Exalt and an LEO who is local contact of the Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress.

If you're ruling it as just an agreement between two mortals, then the consequences are...not nil, but localized.
Probably.

===
4)Karin Murphy should/does know how a lot of supernatural custom and promises work.
If not from Dresden, from Kincaid, who she was explicitly fucking for a while.

She was there for Lord Raith's overthrow two years ago.
She was/is sorta-seeing the Archive's bodyguard Kincaid, and went to Hawaii with him last Halloween.
She helped save Georgia and Billy's wedding from Jenny Greenteeth kidnapping Georgia in order to take her place during the vows and magically bind Billy via his wedding oaths(Something Borrowed short story, Spring/Summer 2006).
She was witness to Dresden transferring Lily's debt to Charity when they went to rescue Molly in Proven Guilty.

And iirc, she knew enough about the Accords to get Big Brother Gruff to walk away in Small Favor.

I'm going to address this holistically not point by point even though they are very good well reasoned points because you are missing something here, Murphy does not understand how the supernatural world works, not really. Yes she spent a lot of time around Dresden, but he spent most of his time doing his level best not to teach her anything more about it than he absolutely had to and yes she slept with Kinkard, but he is an assassin and generally a cold son of a bitch who is quite good at keeping his personal and professional lives separate.In pure mechanics terms Murphy has Occult 1, she is vaguely aware that oaths have some kind of deeper cultural/metaphysical meaning on the supernatural side but she does not really expect that to apply to her because she is human and Molly's human... er when she is not all glowing and covered in idols at least.

If Molly had been making this deal with someone more experienced who would expect it to be followed in letter and spirit alike I would have prompted you guys for details, but as is it is worth keeping in mind how the entire conversation started, with Murphy not being able to conceptualize/accept that her authority means little to the servants of literal hell.
 
1. I admit nowhere in that quote does it say they don't care about the damage from their presence. Please direct me to the part of the quote where it says they care about the damage from their presence (what interests could a Dragon/Mother have?)
If they don't care about cracked reality then why aren't they in reality all the time? The reason the world is stable (ie not crashing randomly) is because they choose to spend most of their time on the other side.

(Personal suspicion but I also think another reason is that they fear that if reality is destroyed by their presence all the time it will do the White God bitch slap them back to the nevernever)

That was my understanding of the quote you showed, if you have evidence to the contrary supporting your argument that they don't care, I'd like to see it.

The interests: The Mothers are part of the courts is enough to say, and the dragons might not care much about humanity but like ancient pillars of existence they would care about the world.

(Not to mention that if the Dragons become a true threat to Humanity it is likely that they will end up being targets of the Knights of the Cross, like Michael, or others like them)

2. Note Jim didn't say only the Knights are a danger to them. Note he didn't even say you needed to be fast and good and lucky enough.

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never said anything about the Knights of the Cross being the only danger (in fact in my post before this I mentioned several different types of dangers, apart from the unknown ones: a date, a weapon and a ritual artifact ).

That was just an example, as I explicitly wrote.

All he said was that if someone was fast enough, or good enough, or even just lucky, that they could kill a Dragon/Mother.
Yes, and none of that has anything to do with the location, it could happen that someone was fast enough, or good enough, or even just lucky, both in reality and in NeverNever.

I will repeat what Uju said: Death is a factor of your being involved with mortal affairs, not your location.

And we sure don't see Dragons wandering around when it ain't Halloween and they're supposedly not susceptible to sudden death. We see 'em hiding in the Nevernever, because you sure as hell don't survive for a long time by taking risks on bad odds.

First, how many Hallowens have we seen in the books? Do we know the identity of all types of immortals in every city in the world during Hallowen every year from the Desdren Files? No? So how can you say that one of the remaining Dragons didn't attend a hallowen party somewhere (for whatever reason)?

When using absolute statements like this, rather than opinions, it is the person's responsibility to present supporting evidence.

Leaving that aside, why the hell would a Dragon or any kind of immortal be doing walking around during one of the few times they are vulnerable to facing true death (remembering that attackers still need to face all enemy power or deception in order to kill a immortal that day, Hallowen just makes sure it stays)?

An intelligent person, or one with an instinct for self-preservation at least, would stay inside their prepared fortress and wait out the night unless forced out for whatever reason.

And finally, they are immortal, they are bound to eventually take some kind of risk or bad odds during their long life and when their reckoning comes, whether they are in Reality or NeverNever at that point, they would still end up dying.
 
Last edited:
@Azais

My point is simply that the superheavyweights of the supernatural world are afraid. They know they can be killed in the mortal world, and so they avoid coming into the mortal world (and thus breaking the world) so that they won't get killed.

Consequently, if even the top dogs are afraid, those inferior to them like Mab ought to be more, not less, vulnerable to death. By mortals who are fast enough or good enough or luck enough. By Exalts who don't like monsters. By, maybe, who knows, a nuke at the right spot in the right time.
 
@Azais

My point is simply that the superheavyweights of the supernatural world are afraid. They know they can be killed in the mortal world, and so they avoid coming into the mortal world (and thus breaking the world) so that they won't get killed.

Consequently, if even the top dogs are afraid, those inferior to them like Mab ought to be more, not less, vulnerable to death. By mortals who are fast enough or good enough or luck enough. By Exalts who don't like monsters. By, maybe, who knows, a nuke at the right spot in the right time.
That's reason to be very careful when the Masquerade curtain falls. A war between Humans and Supernaturals is a lose-lose situation, with only the Outsiders winning. Humans can kill several supernatural heavyweights relying on these miracles (and I count them as miracles because they are) but in return the population of billions will be reduced to millions if not thousands.

(And it is my personal belief that the supernatural will still be a little better off compared to humanity at the end of this hypothetical war)
 
It isnt charity. If you wannabe a drug boss, poisoning your clients is bad for business.
If he botched alchemy rolls, he would have wrecked his own dealers and clientele.
And brought legal heat down on his head.

In order to get away with this as long as he did in Chicago with both Dresden in town and Donald Morgan regularly lurking in the neighborhood, his production operation had to be pretty reliable.
After all, neither Dresden nor Morgan got a sniff of anything off until he started murdering people with ritual magic.

He was producing what sounds like thousands, if not tens of thousands of doses of Three Eye at a time, enough to materially impact the street drug trade in the Chicago metro area. His only assistants were Helen Beckitt and her now-dead husband, and both of them were only involved because he promised them revenge on Marcone, who he viewed as a local crime rival.

If he botched as little as 1 in 100, he would have poisoned a good number of his buyers.

Furthermore?
He did this at the same time he was building kaiju scorpion drones and mastering demon summoning and death rituals.
So it looks like it got pretty routinely easy for him.
I think that you are assuming an amount of FDA approval and regulation for the drug trade that just doesn't exist. People die of bad batches all the time and you can't really investigate if it was actually a bad batch or an overdose. Also the whole point of 3 eye was to open people's sight and give true visions which can be damaging to sanity even if it works perfectly.
 
Back
Top